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Old 03-04-2011, 07:17 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Avionx View Post
Yes, Factory Five does have a subforum for their own car. But the "build" forums for their cars are all on other forums. The Factory Five forum is only a few weeks old. I don't know if everybody is planning on jumping over to thier for thier builds or not yet.
This is because FFR didn't have their own forum to discuss builds when the other cars came out. They do now.

Timmy... very nice.

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Old 03-04-2011, 07:44 AM   #202
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the more I think about this, the more a sub-2,000 lb mid-engine subaru makes sense. Too bad subaru doesn't have the guts to make it and Toyota is pushing them to a front-engine, RWD design, and Porsche already has the Cayman.
You make it sounds as if a <2000# mid engine car is easy to make. Who's doing it besides Lotus with the Elise? Even an Exige weighs more than that, and those cars have virtually no side impact protection, almost nothing else to be removed. People are not grounded with how much cars need to weigh these days.

The car you describe has no place in Subaru's offerings. And I don't see how the potential new Subaru would be competing with Caymans.
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:41 AM   #203
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the mention of the Cayman was to point out that Porsche has already demonstrated how ideal putting a boxer engine in front of the rear axle would be, removing the chance for subaru to be the first to do so. It's hard to argue with the Cayman's near-perfect handling. Simply one of the best chassis ever designed and subaru could have done it first if they were where they are today financially 10 years ago (which they weren't of course, just saying).

I agree that sub-2k cars are not easy. I didn't mean to imply that they are, but if you read the automotive press, there are plenty of articles bemoaning the lack of advancement in making cars lighter. Yes, manufacturers have increased their use of high-carbon steel in frames, but as some journalists have pointed out, that's a drop in the bucket compared to the focus on reducing weight that motorcycles and bicycles have undergone. Virtually every part on those machines is either billet aluminum, forged aluminum, or carbon fiber. Compared to this, car designs have barely budged in incorporating aluminum and carbon fiber construction except in the most expensive cars, and yet aluminum has been around for decades as a fabrication material. I appreciate that carbon fiber is still not ameniable to mass manufacturing. 5 years ago I hypothesized that chopped, compressed carbon fiber could be used to mass-produce car parts with 90% of the performance of hand-laid products. This past year Lamborghini announced that they had worked out a method to do this. While the method is presumably initially being used in the Aventador, they claim that Audi intends to carry the technology down-market to less expensive cars. At least the Geneva show is showing a lot of talk about light weight. I guess we have the whole green movement to thank for bringing this into the mass conscience of buyers and automotive executives, but it does look like it is starting to translate into exciting performance products. I think that the Alfa 4C, if it actually gets built at 1800 lbs for the $ Alfa hopes, will be a direct expression of these advancements. I can't afford a $300k supercar, but a $60k Alfa that weighs <2k lbs sure sounds more appealing than another boring $45k BMW Z4 coupe at >3k lbs.

Another example- the Smart car, has demonstrated that a (very!) safe car can be ridiculously tiny, fairly light, and cost less than 20k. This leaves just the cost and weight of the drivetrain to turn one into a 2k lb roadster, so maybe it's 30k and 2400 lbs. Perfectly within Subaru's and Toyota's markets and, imho, quite doable.

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Old 03-04-2011, 10:16 AM   #204
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the mention of the Cayman was to point out that Porsche has already demonstrated how ideal putting a boxer engine in front of the rear axle would be, removing the chance for subaru to be the first to do so. It's hard to argue with the Cayman's near-perfect handling. Simply one of the best chassis ever designed and subaru could have done it first if they were where they are today financially 10 years ago (which they weren't of course, just saying).
The only similarities between Subaru and Porsche is they both make cars and usually use flat engines. Subaru has no history building cars like a Cayman, IMO they could not come close to that. Nor would they as it is completely out of their market.
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:29 AM   #205
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Ahh, but both of subaru's previous part owners, GM and Toyota do. MR2 and Fiero if you need reminding. And while the Fiero was crippled by GM's engineering at the time, the MR2 was a moderate success. Furthermore, they both demonstrated that a mid-engine car could be built within subaru's price range. Just because the Porsche is over 50k doesn't mean that's the defacto cost to build a mid-engine car. Also, the Porsche Boxster, arguably a more expensive car to make, could be had for under 50k until recently, suggesting that Porsche's price on the Cayman includes a good amount of profit.

Coming close to a Cayman is an open question- how close do you have to get for <30k? Obviously closer than a Fiero, but Porsche laser-precise steering good? I would think a slight improvement on current subaru steering quality would be sufficient. As would the current brakes and engine. A new transmission would be essential I would think.

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Old 03-04-2011, 01:29 PM   #206
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You were comparing a Subaru project to the Cayman, that is completely unachievable IMO. Subaru is a practical car company, a MR car is full of compromises that most people don't like. And building one that is under 2000# is not going to be done for $30k; these are all pipe dreams. If you start edging the price and weight up, the car starts looking a lot like other things on the market. Subaru making a FR coupe is a great step, I hope it goes well for them.
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #207
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Progress

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Old 03-04-2011, 09:05 PM   #208
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the more I think about this, the more a sub-2,000 lb mid-engine subaru makes sense. Too bad subaru doesn't have the guts to make it and Toyota is pushing them to a front-engine, RWD design, and Porsche already has the Cayman. Buy hey, it's now at the top of my most-wanted list. Please someone make a good design for it, or I'll have to start saving up $ for the new Alfa 4C when it comes out.
People are so dumb these days. Mid-engined Subaru, 2000-lbs??? I don't think subaru ever made a mid engined car. Subarus are economy cars and they are a profit organization, why would they want to build a low volume sports car that is not of there interest or image. Who would even buy one and why would anyone buy them. Not much that is why the MR2 was no more.
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Old 03-04-2011, 11:08 PM   #209
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Maybe you should consider something used. Unless I've got money to burn or there's something I just have to have, I don't see myself buying a new car ever again. I'd rather get something with 30k or more on it and save 25-50%. You can get plenty of used fun stuff for $20k.
I roll that in to the B plan, getting a $35-40k slightly used car that'd net be more of a car than buying a new. If I'm getting one car, it'll likely be a sports luxury.


The thought of having a economical daily driver and then a pure sports car for those sunny days is very appealing to me.
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Old 03-05-2011, 12:45 AM   #210
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People are so dumb these days. Mid-engined Subaru, 2000-lbs??? I don't think subaru ever made a mid engined car. Subarus are economy cars and they are a profit organization, why would they want to build a low volume sports car that is not of there interest or image. Who would even buy one and why would anyone buy them. Not much that is why the MR2 was no more.
Quoted for the insult. I'm done wasting my time trying to make my point and cluttering up this thread.
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:30 AM   #211
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Pretty much done, just needs a few minor touches......*Keep in mind, Although this is based off of the dimensions given in the diagram, FFR just wants style.*

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Old 03-05-2011, 03:34 AM   #212
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craaap... need to pull my cosworth/full race set up and dump it into this car!!!!
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:40 AM   #213
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I see a bit of R8, Stratos, P2 and a wee bit of Gallardo in there, not bad at all!





And to whomever mentioned it, the Subaru 360 was rear engined.
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:49 AM   #214
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Hahah, except for the stratos, those were the exact cars I used for inspiration, plus a little bit of my own style.
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:42 PM   #215
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that looks pretty sweet.

are you going to do a front/rear/top view too?
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:58 PM   #216
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Pretty much done, just needs a few minor touches......*Keep in mind, Although this is based off of the dimensions given in the diagram, FFR just wants style.*

fugly

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Old 03-05-2011, 04:03 PM   #217
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fugly
THanks for the Input and pitcture of a car
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Old 03-05-2011, 05:11 PM   #218
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fugly
I agree, that orange thing is pretty disgusting
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:35 PM   #219
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the sketch before the B Pillar looks good. kind of like a Saleen S7, but after that, it looks too short and clunky. as a revision to that pic, i'd like to see the back half of the car stretched out, with a longer wheelbase and more curves. to me (just a layman), if you were to fold the car in half, the front looks like a different car than the back. the front seems to have curvy accents, while the back has angular accents. look at the curve in the driver's window - where does it go? the rear glass is a straight line. look at the curvyness of the A Pillar, contrasted with the angles of the B Pillar. and all the untextured bodywork in the fuel door part of the rear fender - they all seem to be flat surfaces compared to the curves of the front fenders. now this is just my opinion, and i''m not really someone who should be listened to about this stuff, but if i was in the market for this car, i'd look elsewhere if that's what it looked like. which is not to say it's bad, i love the drivetrain and concept, but i wouldn't hit it.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:38 PM   #220
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the sketch before the B Pillar looks good. kind of like a Saleen S7, but after that, it looks too short and clunky. as a revision to that pic, i'd like to see the back half of the car stretched out, with a longer wheelbase and more curves. to me (just a layman), if you were to fold the car in half, the front looks like a different car than the back. the front seems to have curvy accents, while the back has angular accents. look at the curve in the driver's window - where does it go? the rear glass is a straight line. look at the curvyness of the A Pillar, contrasted with the angles of the B Pillar. and all the untextured bodywork in the fuel door part of the rear fender - they all seem to be flat surfaces compared to the curves of the front fenders. now this is just my opinion, and i''m not really someone who should be listened to about this stuff, but if i was in the market for this car, i'd look elsewhere if that's what it looked like. which is not to say it's bad, i love the drivetrain and concept, but i wouldn't hit it.
100% ok, expecting everyone to like it would be foolish. I'm just trying to get close
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:51 PM   #221
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Timmysubie,

Very nice execution. I'll give you my 2 cents worth on both the good and bad.

Front visibility over the front and to the sides looks great. This was one of the driving factors that made the GTM so much different from the GT-40. In a GT-40, you barely see anything. GTM....plenty of visibility.

Great job on the front end treatment. Good balance with lights, hood angle, fender height and windshield angle. The curve of the door top and roof really show you're paying attention.

The line angling from the front....the light in the fender is excellent. I think it needs to be shallower so as not to accentuate just how short this car really is.

I'd like to see this as potentially a full convertible, which I think could be done similar to a Testarossa convertible. The rear does look very wedgy between the B pillar treatment and the shape of the rear.

This is certainly better than anything I could do. Nice job!
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:26 PM   #222
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I agree, that orange thing is pretty disgusting
Hand in your card, right now! Get out!
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:28 PM   #223
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Timmay,

Since there doesn't seem to be a limitation on the number of entries you can submit, I'd submit what you have, make some little changes here and there, submit it again, and keep repeating. Try to get FFR's input on your design as well. The more input you get directly from them, the more likely they'll go with your design.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:41 PM   #224
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100% ok, expecting everyone to like it would be foolish. I'm just trying to get close

Timmy, you're definitely close. and i absolutely don't want to be discouraging with my critiques. i read more, and didn't realize until now, that the wheelbase is a fixed parameter. aaah, now i see why the car is so truncated back there. and as or my comments, i still think it sort of looks dissonantly angular behind the B Pillar. and upon thinking on it, IMO, perhaps a flat, rearward-only window would mask the shortness of the rear end. that way, you could add a little rear quarter window to elongate the greenhouse, as viewed from the side. sort of like the F430/458 is designed...




...or not. either way, i hope you do well in this contest! i'd love to see someone from NASIOC win it. so good luck! incidentally, whenever it does come out, they're talking about in the next year or two, there's actually a very strong possibility i'd scoop one up if it looked right! ...and pending other details, of course.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:29 PM   #225
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Another submission (another direction) of mine, just a quick 10 min sketch.

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