Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday July 13, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-15-2011, 10:57 AM   #1
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Default The Greenest Vehicle Of 2011 (ACEEE) IS



Quote:
If you think your Leaf is the greenest thing on the highway except for the fresh clippings the lawn guy's pickup is dribbling onto the road up in front of you, think again!

The 2011 Honda Civic GX, a car with a natural-gas burning internal combustion engine, topped the battery-electric Nissan Leaf, Chevrolet's plug-in hybrid Volt and hundreds of other models to take top spot for the eighth consecutive year in the respected ACEEE Green Book environmental ratings for passenger cars and light trucks sold in the U.S.

Of more significance than the topmost ratings, which went to cars with limited market penetration, is that half the cars on the list are conventional gasoline-burners. It stands as proof that automakers here and abroad can build highly efficient and environmentally clean cars (albeit all are compacts or subcompacts) without expensive technology upgrades.

The trick is that most make use not only of sophisticated engine tuning and multiple-speed manual transmissions but of new lightweight materials. There are no Lincolns or Mercedes-Benzs on the list because "lightweighting" has greater impact on a small car's fuel economy than on that of a larger vehicle.

The Chevy Volt, which uses both an electric motor and a gasoline generator, finished 12th on the list of the dozen cleanest production vehicles, in large part because its fuel economy when using its gasoline generator isn't all that great, leading to a relatively hefty emissions output compared to others on the list.

The Volt, for example, is rated at 35 mpg in the city and 40 mpg on the highway using its generator, versus the gas-electric Toyota Prius' rating of 51 mpg city and 48 mpg highway.

The Volt also suffers in comparison to the Leaf when using its all-electric mode because it is the heavier of the two, meaning its gets fewer miles of range per kilowatt-hour of electrical power than the Nissan, said Shruti Vaidyanathan, lead analyst for the ACEEE's Green Book project. The group - American Council for an Energy-Efficiennt Economy, is a respected Washington-based environmental lobby.




Chevy's Volt got an ACEEE green score of 48, versus 54 for both the Civic GX and the Nissan Leaf (the Leaf landed in second place despite having the same overall rating as the Honda because the GX (right) has a lower overall pollution rating, which counts more than fuel economy.)
In third place at 53 points was the Smart Fortwo with a 1-liter gas engine.

The Smart's battery-electric stablemate, the new Smart Fortwo ED (electric drive) actually outdid both the Leaf and the Civic GX, scoring 60 points, but it is not considered a production car because only a limited number are available this year for testing under a small lease program.

When the Smart ED and several other mass-market electric city cars such as the Mitsubishi i-MiEV and the Think City come into the market next year, the Civic GX may finally be dethroned, said ACEEE analyst Vaidyanathan.

That would be ironic because until now, the natural gas Civic, despite its green credentials, has been sold in only a few states, but Honda announced last month that with the redesign of the Civic lineup for the 2012 model year, the Civic GX finally would become a 50-state car.

The Green Book, now in its 14th year, bases its ratings on a weighted score derived from federal and state emissions and federal fuel efficiency ratings as well as formulas widely used by government and industry to calculate emissions at the factory, the environmental impact of disposing of and recycling vehicle components at the end of their useful lives, the impact of producing the fuels they use - and in the case of battery-electrics and plug-ins, the production of battery materials - and the public health impacts and costs of vehicles' emissions.

Thus Honda, which hasn't had a lot to crow about lately, scored well with the Civic GX despite its tailpipe emissions. That's because the Green Book team looks at upstream impacts as well as on-road impacts in evaluating vehicles and electrical power production can be pretty dirty compared to natural gas.

Conventional hybrids did well also, with the Toyota Prius finishing forth overall with 52 points and two Hondas - the Civic and Insight hybrids - in fifth and sixth place with 51 and 50 points, respectively.




The ACEEE's use for the first time this year of vehicle disposal and recycling data developed by Argonne National Laboratory shook up the listing a bit because the mining of nickel for conventional hybrids' nickel-metal hydride batteries is pretty dirty, environmentally speaking.
Thus the Prius dropped from second to fourth place and both the Ford Fusion and Nissan Altima hybrids, the largest cars on the "greenest" list last year, dropped off to top dozen for 2011.

Diesels continued to fall just short of the top dozen list; their exceptional fuel economy has been unable to overcome the impact of emissions which, while cleaner than ever, still contain more harmful pollutants than gasoline emissions.

You can see the Green Book's Greenest and Meanest list, replete with emissions standards and fuel economy ratings, as well as lists of the greenest choices in several size segments - the Ford F150 flex-fuel pickup in the full-size pickup segment and the Hyundai Tucson and Chevrolet Equinox crossovers lead their categories, for instance - on ACEEE's Green Book website.

In all, the book lists more than 1,000 vehicles, with individual models broken down by available engine and transmission combinations.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradv...ting-book.html
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 11:20 AM   #2
MrSaabaru
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 74709
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Fort Wayne-ish
Vehicle:
2007 Solstice
05 Yamaha R6 & 04 Saab 93

Default

So score one for the people who can tell the difference between all the different types of "efficient". So many times, fuel consumption/emmissions/'green'/etc. all get lumped together. It's good to see some useable cars on the list too. I think the 'eco' tweaked cars like the chevy cruze eco, and some of the ones from ford, can go a long way without the extra costs of hybrid/electric/diesel which can be off-putting for a lot of people.
MrSaabaru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 01:13 PM   #3
Lboogie
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 171611
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Silicon Valley
Vehicle:
2014 FiST
Blk

Default

Fiesta or Mini , then call it a day. Fun, affordable, functional small cars that don't need alternative fuels, fancy hybrids, or controversial tax incentives to get their Green on.

Kudos to Honda for sticking it to themselves, with the Civic GX and Hybrid scoring higher than their own knockoff Prius..... I mean Insight.
Lboogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 01:22 PM   #4
SilverSubaab
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88288
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Central MA
Default

I can see your point, but having 3 cars in the top 6 is hardly sticking it to themselves.......
SilverSubaab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 05:52 PM   #5
Lboogie
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 171611
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Silicon Valley
Vehicle:
2014 FiST
Blk

Default

They already had a decent Hybrid (Civic Hybrid), spent the $$$$ to clone the Prius and got a less superior product (Insight). There's no advantage to getting an Insight over a Civic Hybrid save for more space for your doggy in the back. Would have made more sense to put that $$$ into the Fit plug in hybrid in order to get it to market sooner.
Lboogie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:51 PM   #6
wrxskier18
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 88005
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Baltimore, MD
Vehicle:
2002 WRX PSM
GS500

Default

Honda didn't spend that much money or time on the Insight, and it shows. It also starts at $18,200 versus $25k for a Civic hybrid. Granted the decently equipped Insight costs $20k. Still, that's $5000-6700 less. And Insights doesn't sell well so has incentives on top of that. I think that's a big advantage.

Also, the Civic hybrid owners won a class action law suit because they whined (didn't get near the advertized mileage). Honda needs to build something better than their weak parallel hybrid.
wrxskier18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 10:29 PM   #7
A_Pointy_Rock
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 234625
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Vehicle:
2007 Ford Fusion
Redfire

Default

What I love is that the W16 quadro turbo Veyron supercar only scores 1 point worse than a bunch of V8 everyday grocery getters
A_Pointy_Rock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 11:16 PM   #8
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Note that the Prius does awesome even when accounting for the "dirty" NiMH battery. It's the top-placing "real car" on that list--not a midget like the Smart, not CNG like the Civic (who has CNG available? fleets but not you or I…), and not a battery electric vehicle like the Leaf.

Also note that diesels are nowhere to be seen. Their emissions simply doom them. Chew on that, "clean diesel" fanatics…
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 08:01 AM   #9
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

I would think the clean diesel folks care more about mpg than about some cradle to grave analysis Shik. I would not buy either Lord knows, but if I did I would most likely get the diesel as getting more mpg than a hybrid would bring some joy to an otherwise joyless driving experience.

Green is the absolute LAST thing I would ever consider when buying a car. THAt green list reads as the what would be the absolute worst cars to drive list to me. With the exception of the cooper, which would probably be a hoot. Still I would have to get the cooper S, as fun >>>>> green. That is unless you think cars are an appliance.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:02 AM   #10
Kubek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53222
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: chicagoland
Vehicle:
'10 Genesis Coupe
'99 Miata

Default

Kubek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:04 AM   #11
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

And yet there are countless people getting 60+ mpg with their VW TDI's. One of them is in my office. I will take real life over a government website thanks very much. This is the same government that is trying to get us on to hybrids...
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:16 AM   #12
Mattr762
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 31624
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tulsa, OK
Vehicle:
02 WRX White
uppipe, turbo-back, MBC

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I will take real life over a government website thanks very much.
See the section on that screen capture that says "Estimates from Drivers like you"? That is real life. That section allows daily drivers to input their own average MPG.
Mattr762 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:18 AM   #13
samagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 26859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: undisputed COMBAT! champion
Vehicle:
of TXIC
I also like (oYo)!!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Note that the Prius does awesome even when accounting for the "dirty" NiMH battery. It's the top-placing "real car" on that list--not a midget like the Smart, not CNG like the Civic (who has CNG available? fleets but not you or I…), and not a battery electric vehicle like the Leaf.
make whatever qualifications you need to in order to justify yourself.

the honest truth is that if you were truly concerned about the environment: size, where the energy comes from and everything else would be secondary to the fact that we are interested in the car that has the least impact on the environment.

I mean hell, when you look at what you said without the rose colored glasses of a smug prius owner it sounds like this:

"I just cheated on my wife, but it's ok because she was fat and ugly"

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Also note that diesels are nowhere to be seen. Their emissions simply doom them. Chew on that, "clean diesel" fanatics…
to this comment, most people get a diesel for it's efficiency.

they like them because they can pay less for a trip across the country, and have more room to do it in.

however, I wonder if our diesel were as clean as in Europe (cause this is a report of American cars), where they would rank?

Last edited by samagon; 02-16-2011 at 09:24 AM.
samagon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:24 AM   #14
Kubek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53222
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: chicagoland
Vehicle:
'10 Genesis Coupe
'99 Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
And yet there are countless people getting 60+ mpg with their VW TDI's. One of them is in my office. I will take real life over a government website thanks very much. This is the same government that is trying to get us on to hybrids...
What year VW? Was it 90hp model with no emissions in it? Where he's getting 60+ mpg, on a highway or in a city? I would rather trust standardized test procedure than some guy on internet. I personally could get 45+ mpg in 2008 Optima, but it wasn't my average.
Kubek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:28 AM   #15
Kubek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53222
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: chicagoland
Vehicle:
'10 Genesis Coupe
'99 Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattr762 View Post
See the section on that screen capture that says "Estimates from Drivers like you"? That is real life. That section allows daily drivers to input their own average MPG.
This result is from Balantz, but he drives his TDI 90% on a highway
Kubek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:30 AM   #16
samagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 26859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: undisputed COMBAT! champion
Vehicle:
of TXIC
I also like (oYo)!!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubek View Post
What year VW? Was it 90hp model with no emissions in it? Where he's getting 60+ mpg, on a highway or in a city? I would rather trust standardized test procedure than some guy on internet. I personally could get 45+ mpg in 2008 Optima, but it wasn't my average.
the thing about standardized tests is they tell you what you'll get if you drive in the same conditions as the test was performed in.

some will do better than the tests indicate, some will do worse than the tests indicate.

yes, the tests are good at comparison, and the real question is, if that same person who got 5mpg more out of the diesel engine, would he get 5mpg more out of the prius as well?

and what the hell is 5mpg at 55mpg anyway? like a dollar savings a month? 5mpg better when you start at 10mpg is something, but 5mpg over 55mpg, who cares.
samagon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 09:58 AM   #17
Kubek
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 53222
Join Date: Jan 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: chicagoland
Vehicle:
'10 Genesis Coupe
'99 Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
and what the hell is 5mpg at 55mpg anyway? like a dollar savings a month? 5mpg better when you start at 10mpg is something, but 5mpg over 55mpg, who cares.
You're right, but when you look at the cost of car, fuel and maintenance there are better choices than diesel.
Kubek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 10:19 AM   #18
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
And yet there are countless people getting 60+ mpg with their VW TDI's. One of them is in my office. I will take real life over a government website thanks very much. This is the same government that is trying to get us on to hybrids...
Yea and i get 40 mpg on my 02.

If you don't like this country, why do you live here.

Last edited by 4wdwrx; 02-16-2011 at 11:02 AM.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 10:37 AM   #19
gpshumway
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 43950
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Vehicle:
07 WRX LTD Wagon
Satin White Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
And yet there are countless people getting 60+ mpg with their VW TDI's. One of them is in my office. I will take real life over a government website thanks very much. This is the same government that is trying to get us on to hybrids...
Yea, I'm calling BS on this as well. They're not getting 60 mpg in a 2009+ CR TDI, no way in hell. You can hyper-mile an older ALH (99.5-03) car up to that number on the highway, but that's not the same as getting 50 mpg combined on regular unleaded in a Prius. I sold my 2000 TDI to my mother several years ago. She does mostly rural highway driving at ~60mph and averages 53 mpg. When I had the car in the city my average was ~45mpg.

One also has to remember that diesel has an inherent ~11% advantage in energy content, meaning a diesel has to get 11% better fuel economy to equal the CO2/Mile output of a gasoline car.
gpshumway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 06:38 PM   #20
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubek View Post
This result is from Balantz, but he drives his TDI 90% on a highway
A highway trip nets this in our Prius, so there :



Also, as noted by the poster above me, diesel has more CO2 and BTUs per gallon. (Source: http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm ) To match the 54.7 mpg on regular unleaded that I logged above would require 62.8 mpg on diesel, and that's assuming equal smog-forming emissions.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 06:48 PM   #21
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by samagon View Post
make whatever qualifications you need to in order to justify yourself.

the honest truth is that if you were truly concerned about the environment: size, where the energy comes from and everything else would be secondary to the fact that we are interested in the car that has the least impact on the environment.

I mean hell, when you look at what you said without the rose colored glasses of a smug prius owner it sounds like this:

"I just cheated on my wife, but it's ok because she was fat and ugly"

to this comment, most people get a diesel for it's efficiency.

they like them because they can pay less for a trip across the country, and have more room to do it in.

however, I wonder if our diesel were as clean as in Europe (cause this is a report of American cars), where they would rank?
Our diesel cars are as "clean" as in Europe, which is to say that only a few pass 50-state automotive emissions. Our diesel, as in the fuel itself, is now comparable thanks to the meddling Bush administration, ever so ready with the regulation , mandating VLSD. Why the hell couldn't he have kept his hands away from private enterprise and let the invisible hand make this change?



I am truly concerned about the environment. Do I think my individual actions will have more than a negligible effect either way? Yeah, I'm good enough at math to figure that one out. However, I feel that living as "green" as we can is both the right thing to do and can save us some money. See other related topics of insulating one's house, using a programmable thermostat, minimizing phantom/vampire power, etc.

Does this mean that fuel efficiency trumps all? No--otherwise I'd be driving a 1st-gen Honda Insight. Even for people for whom "greenness" is a priority when choosing a car other things matter, and having a car that doesn't have the reliability problems of Honda's IMA system; seats 5 with ample rear legroom vs. seats 2 in a cramped manner; and can actually carry cargo makes it a much more useful vehicle. Even Sierra Club members (and, no, I'm not one as I want land to be open for responsible motorcycle and bicycle use) go to Costco to load up on toilet paper and need a way to get that junk home…

In conclusion, you're an idiot who has a bone to pick with the Prius for some reason, and your "cheated on wife" analogy doesn't make a whit of sense.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2011, 07:46 PM   #22
Stanley
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7374
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: North Bay, SFCA
Vehicle:
2007 Grandpamobile
BlingBlingBlue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
(who has CNG available? fleets but not you or I…)
Anyone with a garage and natural gas coming into their home for hot water, heating or cooking can fill up their CNG commuter at home. It costs about 2 grand for the fueling station before government incentives. I seriously considered purchasing one about 7 years ago, but just couldn't stomach the terrible seats in a Civic or the lack of power of a CNG Civic. Of course, this is no good for anything but a commuter as CNG filling stations are far and few between.
Stanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 03:45 AM   #23
AVANTI R5
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 73805
Join Date: Nov 2004
Default

The reviews I read, stated there was no difference btwn the gas and cng civic. Canadian Driver has it I think. The Civic CNG was only sold in seven states. Starting this summer it will be available in just about all states. I drove a 3/4 ton Dodge P/U back in the 70's with a propane tank in the back, Drove the same as the gas version.
AVANTI R5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 07:24 AM   #24
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

Actually going green costs MORE for LESS in a vast amount of circumstances. Energy star appliances do not work as well as power hungry ones. Efficient light bulbs suck. Hybrids are far and away a bad economic value compared to most other efficient ICE cars (unless you drive a whole bunch). Green house cleaners suck, Green paints for cars are usually of such weak and poor quality, cars chip if you say harsh words at them, green building materials suck and cost MUCH more, electric lawn equipment sucks balls.

In most cases going green gets you worse performance, lower standard of living, and it costs you more.

HOWEVER...

There are somethings we should just suck up and do. Even I, yes, the anti green poster child do not blindly waste for the fun of it. I built an energy star house, I added solar film to the windows in my house, I added a radiant barrier to my attic. Yes, I know it will take 20 years to recoup the cost, but the AC has to work less, so I did it from a wear and tear point of view, and lower electric bills are just a VERY small bonus.

Shik, I know we hardly ever agree on any subject where the word green comes to mind, but I admire your unwavering mindset, and your commitment to something you believe in. I give you grief, but I completely respect your point of view.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 08:23 AM   #25
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVANTI R5 View Post
The reviews I read, stated there was no difference btwn the gas and cng civic. Canadian Driver has it I think. The Civic CNG was only sold in seven states. Starting this summer it will be available in just about all states. I drove a 3/4 ton Dodge P/U back in the 70's with a propane tank in the back, Drove the same as the gas version.
Drives the same but has no trunk space iirc. That's a problem in a small non-hatchback car.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
This Will Be One Of The Biggest Songs Of 2011 Smashing The Billboard Charts Very Hard runtheeast Off-Topic 41 12-15-2010 09:52 AM
Hoth is pure snow! Do you have any idea what the street value of this planet is? Cole Off-Topic 32 10-11-2010 01:12 PM
And the greenest car of the year is … a diesel-powered.. AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 5 06-16-2009 09:30 PM
Honda Civic GX greenest vehicle of 2008 AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 6 02-20-2008 10:23 PM
ONE OF THE BEST MOVIES OF ALL TIME is on right now!!! DamnYank! Off-Topic 8 04-22-2007 08:56 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.