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Old 02-16-2011, 11:31 AM   #1
GrimmSpeed
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Default GrimmSpeed Boost Control / Hybrid FAQ

Since we've came out with the MBC we've had a lot of questions coming in about electronic vs. manual boost controllers. There have also been many questions about Hybrid set ups and "which is best for me" scenarios, so we wanted to post up a quick FAQ!!

On to the good stuff...

GrimmSpeed Boost Control / Hybrid Set Up FAQ

I've heard that Boost control Solenoids are FTW. Why do I want a electronic boost controller?
While the stock boost control system operates adequately, it can lead to problems at higher-than-stock boost levels. Since the bleed system is sized for the stock turbo at stock boost levels, it is typically incapable of correctly metering air at higher boost, allowing the wastegate to see pressure and open before intended. Additionally, since the wastegate is never completely cut off from seeing compressor pressure, it can open at low boost levels and inhibit boost buildup. With a 3 port solenoid, drawbacks of the bleed-based system are thus eliminated, with the wastegate seeing literally no pressure when the solenoid is energized, to seeing all of the compressor pressure when the solenoid is de-energized. Now able to explicitly control the opening and closing of the wastegate, the ECU is able to control boost with greater precision and reduced response time.

Will I get spikes with an electronic boost solenoid?
Spikes are possible if your tuner is too aggressive with the wastegate duty cycle ramp up maps. Your tuner can eliminate these spikes.

Is a boost control solenoid best for me?
We recommend the solenoid to 90% of customers. Its more responsive than OEM, provides superior boost control, faster spool by 5-600rpms, and a solid boost curve.

Why would I want a manual boost controller over a 3-port boost control solenoid?
A manual boost controller can be more responsive than an electronic boost controller. For some applications, this can lead to even faster spool up. Also, your tuner may have a strong preference in tuning a manual boost controller. We generally recommend this solution to people spending a lot of time on the track.

I've heard that you can have part throttle full boost (PTFB) when using a MBC, what is that?
Without the control of an electronic boost controller, a turbo has the capability of creating full boost at partial throttle positions.

Why is PTFB a concern?
When your car is at part throttle, you can be operating in closed loop. When the ECU is in closed loop, it is trying to operate at a stoichiometric A/F ratio (without proper tuning). You can't safely run the stoichiometric A/F ratio at any sort of higher boost levels or you'll get detonation.

So I can't run a MBC?
A tuner can adjust your map so that you will only go into closed loop when PTFB is not possible. This portion of the map can be adjusted to ensure safe A/F ratios.

Are there any drawbacks if I am tuned for an MBC?
You may see a small increase in emissions and drop in fuel economy on average since you will not be in closed loop as often.

What is a hybrid setup?
A hybrid setup utilizes both a manual boost controller and an ECU controlled electronic boost control solenoid in parallel. It eliminates the limitations of both an electronic boost controller (slightly slower boost response when tuned to prevent spike) and a manual boost controller (inability to limit boost in closed loop partial throttle conditions).

What is the drawback to a hybrid setup?
It takes a little more knowledge and time to properly set it up. And you have to buy two boost controllers.


-Will
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Last edited by GrimmSpeed; 02-16-2011 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:52 AM   #2
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Nice write up Will. This has become a more common question on the forums and at meets.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:01 PM   #3
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Boost Control from worst to best

OEM
EBCS
MBC (Hallman ProRX with Heavy Spring) (sorry i havent tested your new GS MBC)
EBCS + MBC
EBCS + MBC + external wastegate
EBCS + MBC + external wastegate + 3.5 Bar MAP sensor
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:39 PM   #4
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Hey guys can anyone post up or point me in the right direction of a detailed install guide for a hybrid setup? I have a Hallman Pro RX and I will be buying a GS EBCS next week. Phatron will be tuning it but since he refuses to do installs, I need a little help. Thanks. (Sorry to throw you under the bus Ron )
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:19 PM   #5
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the hybrid setup thread is stickied right above this one

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=602674

i never said i wouldnt install the boost control....i said i wouldnt weld in EGT or wideband bungs.....mostly since i've never welded in my life...and dont own a welder....
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:14 PM   #6
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I coulda swore I remember you saying that you don't like to do installs of any kind. I could be mistaken though. I actually don't need anything welded. My downpipe has a bung already and I need to drill and tap my manifold for the egt.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:21 PM   #7
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Good info I've always thought about going hybrid, even though your ebcs is doing a fine job on its own (+external gate), having a manual bcs added has always been in my thoughts. Now that you guys have one I'm all for it.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:23 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killersoobs View Post
I coulda swore I remember you saying that you don't like to do installs of any kind. I could be mistaken though. I actually don't need anything welded. My downpipe has a bung already and I need to drill and tap my manifold for the egt.
dont like to and dont do are totally different

i just did a header, up, intake and tune last weekend.....and i didnt like it one bit.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:52 PM   #9
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I think your lying! You love doing installs and tunes. Well maybe just the tunes. I personally really enjoy doing installs...at least on my own car.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:53 PM   #10
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I looked at the pic of the hybrid setup on that other thread and I think I got it figured out. It actually seems pretty easy. (famous last words)
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killersoobs View Post
I looked at the pic of the hybrid setup on that other thread and I think I got it figured out. It actually seems pretty easy. (famous last words)
Yeah it isnt too bad. Did you get it figured out?

Justin Grimm
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

Yeah it isnt too bad. Did you get it figured out?

Justin Grimm
I have been so busy these past few months with family and work that I haven't done the install yet. I'm doing the hybrid setup along with a triple gauge pod. So I haven't been able to find the time to pull my headerso I can drill and tap it and do the wiring for three gauges. Sigh... One day I will be ready for a tune.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:42 PM   #13
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I'm using the gs mbc and ebc and I love it. I used ride5000 sticky there's even a pic in there for grimm setup.

Last edited by unkachabull; 04-18-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 04-20-2011, 10:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unkachabull View Post
I'm using the gs mbc and ebc and I love it. I used ride5000 sticky there's even a pic in there for grimm setup.
That is awesome to hear...glad our hybrid setup is working as planned for you!

Justin Grimm
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:12 PM   #15
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Best boost controller for money is without doubt aftermarket ECU,not these manual boost controllers or electronic boost controllers.
Yes is expensive,but on longer run is still best solution(just for dual fuel maps,dual boost maps yes is possible via OS tune on some ECU,in gear boost have just few boost controllers like Apexi AVC-R)
I'm not big fan of MBC or EBC,good tuner is able control boost without the doubt just fit 3 port boost solenoid and you have good boost control up to 1.5-1.7bar,in gear boost control etc.,in my opinion 3-port boost solenoid is worth to do and not fit "bleed valves"


Jura
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Old 04-23-2011, 08:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post
Best boost controller for money is without doubt aftermarket ECU,not these manual boost controllers or electronic boost controllers.
Yes is expensive,but on longer run is still best solution(just for dual fuel maps,dual boost maps yes is possible via OS tune on some ECU,in gear boost have just few boost controllers like Apexi AVC-R)
I'm not big fan of MBC or EBC,good tuner is able control boost without the doubt just fit 3 port boost solenoid and you have good boost control up to 1.5-1.7bar,in gear boost control etc.,in my opinion 3-port boost solenoid is worth to do and not fit "bleed valves"


Jura
I would not argue with that, however even an AEM standalone unit will use a 3-port valve that is very very similar to our BCS. The Hybrid set up is the closest true boost control with amazing results shy of a basically pure built race car. But for 99% of people out there it is just not reasonable to replace the ECU with a full aftermarket system and pay someone to dial it in. Even now though with Evo's & STI's we are seeing incredible HP numbers on the stock ECU as people get better.

I am not saying that our system is the only system anybody should ever use ever for anything no matter what, simply that it is the best method of boost control for the vast majority of enthusiasts out there!

Will
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Old 04-23-2011, 11:46 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post
Best boost controller for money is without doubt aftermarket ECU,not these manual boost controllers or electronic boost controllers.
Yes is expensive,but on longer run is still best solution(just for dual fuel maps,dual boost maps yes is possible via OS tune on some ECU,in gear boost have just few boost controllers like Apexi AVC-R)
I'm not big fan of MBC or EBC,good tuner is able control boost without the doubt just fit 3 port boost solenoid and you have good boost control up to 1.5-1.7bar,in gear boost control etc.,in my opinion 3-port boost solenoid is worth to do and not fit "bleed valves"
Jura
IMO a gs ebcs Run through our ecu is better than some of the expensive full after market units....especially the blitz.

And Jura, our after market ebcs' are interrupt ebcs' not bleed type. The stock one is bleed.

There is no reason to pay $400-600 for a blitz, avcr, etc.....you're getting 90% of the features in our stock ecu....like you said the it just lacks per gear boost.

But if you run a hybrid setup (mbc+ebcs) you dont need 2 maps...you simply pop your hood and turn teh mbc up or down to your desired level. And with grimmspeeds new mbc setting the mbc is easier than ever.

Last edited by Phatron; 04-23-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 04-27-2011, 09:16 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jura11 View Post
Best boost controller for money is without doubt aftermarket ECU,not these manual boost controllers or electronic boost controllers.
Yes is expensive,but on longer run is still best solution(just for dual fuel maps,dual boost maps yes is possible via OS tune on some ECU,in gear boost have just few boost controllers like Apexi AVC-R)
I'm not big fan of MBC or EBC,good tuner is able control boost without the doubt just fit 3 port boost solenoid and you have good boost control up to 1.5-1.7bar,in gear boost control etc.,in my opinion 3-port boost solenoid is worth to do and not fit "bleed valves"


Jura
when you can:

adjust peak boost with a knob on the dashboard and
pass an OBD2 scan for vehicle inspections and
set this up for about $200 in parts total.

then MAYBE you'd be right.
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Old 04-29-2011, 11:34 AM   #19
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In the new wrx & sti you can do per gear boost control. If u look in the tuning section on 3wrx these a whole thread
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denato1 View Post
In the new wrx & sti you can do per gear boost control. If u look in the tuning section on 3wrx these a whole thread
Yes you can control in gear boost,via OS(Open Source)tune or EcuTek.

Jura
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Old 04-29-2011, 01:35 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
when you can:

adjust peak boost with a knob on the dashboard and
pass an OBD2 scan for vehicle inspections and
set this up for about $200 in parts total.

then MAYBE you'd be right.
Have look,you can switch multiple maps on fly on some ECU,just with one button/switch,something like this(this is for Syvecs)

On this ECU you can have 8 maps:1-95RON+Low boost,2-99RON+High boost,3-95RON+10%Meth,4-99RON+ALS and LC,5-E85 etc.,multiple boost maps etc,you are limited own imagination and engine.




OBD2 scan i don't need,really you can plug laptop via port and real time monitor/datalogging without problem,real time tune etc.

I'm afraid this will cost more than $200,but worth every penny.




Jura
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Old 04-29-2011, 02:26 PM   #22
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ride says you cant do that stuff for $200.....and you post up a $1500 standalone option? completely proving his point even more
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:34 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
ride says you cant do that stuff for $200.....and you post up a $1500 standalone option? completely proving his point even more
Switchable multiple fuel maps,i don't think so,you can do or he can do


Jura
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Old 04-29-2011, 04:16 PM   #24
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when the hell did this thread turn into multiple ECU maps?
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Old 04-29-2011, 05:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
when the hell did this thread turn into multiple ECU maps?
My bad mate


If you could run adjust peak boost via knob,fantastic..but not for me,maybe for someone.
OE ECU is great,knock control,boost control is also good(if you are not running crazy boost) and 3 port boost solenoid,just have limitation like MBCS or EBCS.


Jura
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