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Old 02-17-2011, 04:58 PM   #51
aboothman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STI08awd View Post
I'm not going to get in a full on forum war with you about what a giant waste of money a twinscroll turbo is on a Subaru, especially not in Jeffs thread. Feel free to start another thread somewhere else where I most likely won't respond.
So you came in this thread to talk ****, but you refuse to get into a "forum war" when you are presented with actual data? Crawl back under your rock, troll.

The data to support TS is out there, and there have been plenty of big turbo TS users who back up the claims. Besides there must be something to it, as more and more manufacturers are producing TS kits. Or maybe it is all "hype" and gimmicks I think it is just one of those things that a certain crowd will not buy into until they are hands on themselves, or until there is irrefutable proof that comes from tests that are properly scientific. I can understand and appreciate that. But there is no need to trash a product when there is a lack of said proof either.

Back to Jeff's thread. I am stoked that one of the biggest makers of Subie parts will be getting hands on with the EFR.
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:26 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
if a turbo has an internal wg there's nothing stopping you from welding the wg shut and going external....or using a bracket to hold it shut and going external....just like most turbos have to do at the moment....vice the large turbos that only come with ext wg turbine housings

for the twin scroll applications they are offering the internals to save $$ and space
My thoughts were that it would end up costing the buyer more in regards to the R&D and manufacturing process to create an IWG system rather than having the buyer source his own WG's. Any way I appreciate the explanation. That makes sense.

So how much fab. work (if any) is going to be required to 'stuff' that pumpkin in there without having any major clearance issues?
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:27 PM   #53
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Fun Police have arrived. If there is going to be a "war" I'm the one swinging the ban hammer. There is no need to call each other names. There is no need to run around bashing that which others believe. Agree to disagree and lets not be children.




Now because I'm wondering...can someone explain why there was an argument about the results Bariga posted? I can see that the TS setup does get rid of the bend/knee in the power curve up to peak torque. It doesn't seem to affect the peak torque or power values. I can see where that additional area under the curve has its benefits. I can also see where it doesn't make any difference until your rev's drop low enough to slow the transitional response of the turbo. If that happens often you probably have the wrong size turbo for your application.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:02 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ultra85 View Post
My thoughts were that it would end up costing the buyer more in regards to the R&D and manufacturing process to create an IWG system rather than having the buyer source his own WG's. Any way I appreciate the explanation. That makes sense.
how would it cost the buyer more to make an int wg system?

the turbo with the int wg is say $2000...you pay $2k and you're done....

For TS w/ ext wg you pay $2000 + $300 wg + $300 wg + dump tubes + extra labor to weld on the v-band clamps.....and then you or the fabricator have more fitment issues to worry about....

So you're looking at ~$1000 difference in TS int wg vs TS ext wg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby921 View Post


Now because I'm wondering...can someone explain why there was an argument about the results Bariga posted? I can see that the TS setup does get rid of the bend/knee in the power curve up to peak torque. It doesn't seem to affect the peak torque or power values. I can see where that additional area under the curve has its benefits. I can also see where it doesn't make any difference until your rev's drop low enough to slow the transitional response of the turbo. If that happens often you probably have the wrong size turbo for your application.
Twinscroll is not supposed to increase peak hp numbers....its supposed to increase the area under the curve BELOW peak boost...and in the 25-75% throttle areas......basically its supposed to improve the powerband everywhere except the peak numbers. And its also supposed to have better boost recovery...

Although TS setups can make a little more peak hp as the turbine housings are often larger...for instance the EFR 7670 SS housing is 0.83 AR and the TS offerings are 0.92 and 1.03 AR....

Camtuning tested the old BW stuff and made ~10whp more with the smallest TS housing than he did with the SS or larger TS housing.....

Last edited by Phatron; 02-17-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:20 PM   #55
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New pics and comentary are up on first page! I will get to responses in a few here!
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:30 PM   #56
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^^ can you take the turbos apart and weigh the rotating mass

interested how the weight of the bearing assembly offsets the super gamma ti wheel...
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:48 PM   #57
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Quote:
The Garrett turbine wheel is shaped different, and also has a much thinner cross section. You can almost make it out in the pics. Brock at Borg Warner told me that you have to go up a couple millimeters in the EFR turbine wheel OD, to compare against a Garrett. Which this makes more sense base on the overall volume the turbine wheel being slightly less with an EFR of the same given OD as a Garrett.
this confuses me. i thought the efr turbine would be 10mm bigger than the gtx?
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Old 02-17-2011, 07:06 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
I won't say yes or no from a simple dyno plot...only and idiot would. You have to look at it in terms of response, as many guys will attest, that a twinscroll is more resonsive. Keep in mind that RPM is not Time but mearly crank velocity...now if you look at crank acceleration then you have a useful terms of comparing the two.

Yes, as far as power is concerned, they haven't 'WOWED' me.

^^^until either side of this argument can PROVE one way or another, please don't reply and litter this thread.

Back to the topic at hand...So Jeff, how long are you going to keep us waiting?
I haven't been 'WOWED' by any twinscroll setup either - I only asked a simple question as to whether or not Perrin was going to develop a TS kit, and 08STi had to chime in with a smart comment. I laughed because someone immediately responded to his attempt at trashing a product.

Either way - these turbos should be awesome and I'm eagerly awaiting results for both SS and TS applications.

EDIT: I also just read Ron's explanation of the benefit of TS over SS - it explains the concept quite well and should help those mis/uninformed about these benefits.

Last edited by Boosted WRX STi; 02-17-2011 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 07:19 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted WRX STi View Post
I can't wait to see the results either... if it these turbos perform as good as they have been hyped up to be, I'll be one of the first to buy Perrin's kit! Let's see some numbers Jeff!

EDIT: Jeff, are you guys planning on developing a twin scroll kit with these, or only sticking with single scroll?
AT this point no twinscroll. For now, ill leave that up to Full Race. If we make a kit, we really want to keep it around that $3000 street price and doing a twins scroll setup pretty much is going to add $1000 at least to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Back to the topic at hand...So Jeff, how long are you going to keep us waiting?
Well, been planning on a simple way to test this out. Might be something crazy with the turbo sitting way up high and the hood may not be able to close, but it would allow a quick test to be done. Not sure yet, its only been a day

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
its probably gonna take em a while to sawzaw the car to fit that thing in there
And plasma, and big hammer, and prybar.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
if a turbo has an internal wg there's nothing stopping you from welding the wg shut and going external....or using a bracket to hold it shut and going external....just like most turbos have to do at the moment....vice the large turbos that only come with ext wg turbine housings

for the twin scroll applications they are offering the internals to save $$ and space
I really hope we don't have to do that on these. That WG sticks way out there, and i really hope it doesn't have to be chopped off. Then we would be adding that WG cost back into the kit. But again, we are a ways off to figure that out.
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Old 02-17-2011, 07:36 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^ can you take the turbos apart and weigh the rotating mass

interested how the weight of the bearing assembly offsets the super gamma ti wheel...
My finger twisting method i feel is definitely precise and i hate to say they feel the same. But the EFR has assembly oil (which makes it spin down very fast) so there is no way to know. And NO i am not going to take it apart, that would be crazy! But maybe we can get someone at BW to tell us the weight??

Quote:
Originally Posted by azn2nr View Post
this confuses me. i thought the efr turbine would be 10mm bigger than the gtx?
Sorry i was confusing in the way i said it. Basically BWTS says that they find you need a larger BW turbine wheel compared to a Garrett. Meaning a larger BW turbine wheel will spool the same as a smaller Garrett. I was trying to justify this because the Garrett turbine wheel is "grabbing" more air due to the thinner cross section. The BW turbine has a fatter cross section "grabbing" less air, in turn needing a bigger diameter to grab the same volume. In layman's terms.

So in instances of the EFR7670, it has a 70mm turbine wheel compared to the GT3076R which has a 60mm diameter wheel. BWTS says theirs will be faster responding on the same given engine.

In contrast, BW's compressor wheel needs to be smaller in order to compare to Garrett GT wheels. The EFR7670 has a compressor wheel that is 57in/76ex compared to GT3076 which is 57in/76.2ex yet the EFR flows more air. Since BW told me this, the GTX wheels have come out which then levels the playing field there.

Last edited by PERRINJeff; 02-18-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 07:57 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
^^ can you take the turbos apart and weigh the rotating mass

interested how the weight of the bearing assembly offsets the super gamma ti wheel...
Weighing it means nothing... IT IS MOMENT OF INERTIA THAT Matters.

yes the shaft will be heavier but since all of its mass in near the center and has no moment arm, it won't affect the moment of inertia much.

the larger bearings may have more drag...

its like low wheel weight doesn't matter if the rim is heavier on the light wheel.
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:21 PM   #62
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Turbo porn has arrived. Waiting for more than the softcore porn being shown here.
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:05 PM   #63
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thanks for this and the gtx thread jeff. they are great, a lot of us really appreciate the hard work!
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:34 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by n2oiroc View Post
thanks for this and the gtx thread jeff. they are great, a lot of us really appreciate the hard work!
+12345

Look at what Jeff is doing for the comunity... Full-Race can not even do a simple comparison for us
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:42 AM   #65
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Patiently waiting for results!
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:29 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by PERRINJeff View Post

So in instances of the EFR7670, it has a 70mm turbine wheel compared to the GT3076R which has a 68mm diameter wheel.
Jeff, didn't the GT(X)3076R have a 60mm turbine wheel and the GT(X)35R having the larger 68mm wheel?
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:35 AM   #67
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I was going to suggest doing the same thing. Just take the hood off and make an extra tall uppipe and fab up the downpipe.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:44 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
Jeff, didn't the GT(X)3076R have a 60mm turbine wheel and the GT(X)35R having the larger 68mm wheel?

Yeah, I bet that was a typo. The GT(X)3076R has a 60mm turbine wheel and the GT(X)3582R has a 68mm turbine wheel. It probably just slipped through.

Jasper.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:46 AM   #69
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What is another 12 inches on a 5 foot exhaust, lol.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:52 AM   #70
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What is another 12 inches on a 5 foot exhaust, lol.
realistically it'll probably clear with 4-6" of extension on a standard rotated uppipe...or so is my guess.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:58 AM   #71
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If you have ever made your own up-pipe before, you would realize that when having the turbo up high, the exhaust points right at the a/c lines giving not much room to make a down pipe. Even though the exhaust inlet flange to the v- band outlet is not much different than the garrett the whole turbo needs to be pushed back to fit; so the up pipe will need to sit several inches back too, making the issue even worse if not imposable.

Because of how long this turbo is and the waste gate wanting to sit where the frame rail is, I would suggest something like this.

http://www.forcedairtechnologies.com...l-turbo-build/

Have a different up-pipe, down pipe and a MAF extension for the efr kit. It would be (o)(o) Yeah, I gave you the pearky ones.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:00 PM   #72
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agree

Last edited by Bariga; 02-27-2011 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:17 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
+12345

Look at what Jeff is doing for the comunity... Full-Race can not even do a simple comparison for us
+1 awesome work Jeff !
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:23 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
+12345
Look at what Jeff is doing for the comunity... Full-Race can not even do a simple comparison for us
To be fair, all the EFR testers were held to very strict terms with the data they gathered from testing. I think they were only really able to start talking about it a few weeks back. My guess is that is why they haven't shown anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
Jeff, didn't the GT(X)3076R have a 60mm turbine wheel and the GT(X)35R having the larger 68mm wheel?
Doh! I had all these notes in my EFR catalog and you are right i was looking at the wrong one. So i fixed my old post also. Basically the idea is, the EFR turbine size needs to be bigger (in this case 10mm) to get the same spool.

Too many numbers flying around in my head!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
realistically it'll probably clear with 4-6" of extension on a standard rotated uppipe...or so is my guess.
Well its not out of the question to do something like that. My goal is just to prove it works then go from there.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:26 PM   #75
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Jeff, any reason you didn't get an EWG housing so you don't have to deal with the additional axial length of the IWG housing? From what I can tell the existing turbo kit has an EWG anyway.

If you use the shorter exhaust housing now you only have to contend with the huge axial length of the CHRA, lol
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