Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday November 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-17-2011, 03:27 AM   #1
E. Nick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8489
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Atherton, CA
Vehicle:
1978 Plymouth Volare
Maroon / White Vinyl

Default Chris Harris: Ferrari Are Cheats

Chris Harris: Ferrari Are Cheats
(long story, but worth reading it)

Chris Harris (Evo Magazine UK), Feb 15, 2011 3:00 PM — I told the blokes at Jalopnik I was pissed at Ferrari and wanted to tell a few people. They said I could do it here. Stay with me, this might take a while.


I think it started in 2007 when I heard that Ferrari wanted to know which test track we were going to use for Autocar's 599 GTB road test, but in reality the rot had set in many years earlier. Why would it want to know that? "Because," said the man from the Autocar office, "The factory now has to send a test team to the circuit we chose so that they can optimize the car to get the best performance from it." They duly went to the track, tested for a day, crashed the car, went back to the factory to mend the car, returned, tested and then invited us to drive this "standard" 599. They must have been having a laugh.
Sad to say it, but the ecstasy of driving a new Ferrari is now almost always eradicated by the pain of dealing with the organization. Why am I bothering to tell you this? Because I'm pissed with the whole thing now. It's gotten out of control; to the point that it will soon be pointless believing anything you read about its cars through the usual channels, because the only way you get access is playing by its rules.
Like anyone with half a brain, I've been willing to cut Ferrari some slack because it is, well, Ferrari –- the most famous fast car brand of all and the maker of cars that everyone wants to know about. Bang out a video of yourself drifting a new Jag XKR on YouTube and 17 people watch it; do the same in a 430 Scuderia and the audience is 500,000 strong. As a journalist, those numbers make you willing to accommodate truck-loads of bull****, but I've had enough now. I couldn't care if I never drive a new Ferrari again, if it means I never have to deal with the insane communication machine and continue lying about the lengths to which Ferrari will bend any rule to get what it wants. Which is just as well, because I don't think I'm going to be invited back to Maranello any time soon. Shame, the food's bloody marvelous.
How bad has it been? I honestly don't know where to start. Perhaps the 360 Modena press car that was two seconds faster to 100mph than the customer car we also tested. You allow some leeway for "factory fresh" machines, but this thing was ludicrously quick and sounded more like Schumacher's weekend wheels than a street car. Ferrari will never admit that its press cars are tuned, but has the gall to turn up at any of the big European magazines' end-of-year-shindig-tests with two cars. One for straight line work, the other for handling exercises. Because that's what happens when you buy a 458: they deliver two for just those eventualities. The whole thing stinks. In any other industry it wouldn't be allowed to happen. It's dishonest, but all the mags take it between the cheeks because they're too scared of not being invited to drive the next new Ferrari.
Remember the awesome 430 Scuderia? What a car that was, and still is. One English magazine went along with all the cheating-bull**** because the cars did seem to be representative of what a customer might get to drive, but then during the dyno session, the "standard" tires stuck themselves to the rollers.
And this is the nub: how ****ing paranoid do you have to be to put even stickier rubber on a Scuderia? It's like John Holmes having an extra two inches grafted onto his dick. I mean it's not as if, according to your own communication, you're not a clear market leader and maker of the best sports cars in the world now, is it? What Ferrari plainly cannot see is that its strategy to win every test at any cost is completely counter-productive. First, it completely undermines the amazing work of its own engineers. What does it say about a 458 if the only way its maker is willing to loan it to a magazine is if a laptop can be plugged in after every journey and a dedicated team needs to spend several days at the chosen test track to set-up the car? It says they're completely nuts –- behavior that looks even worse when rival brands just hand over their car with nothing more than a polite suggestion that you should avoid crashing it too heavily, and then return a week later.
Point two: the internet is good for three things: free porn, Jalopnik and spreading information. Fifteen years ago, if your 355 wasn't as fast as the maker claimed you could give the supplying dealer a headache, whine at the local owners club and not much besides. Nowadays you spray your message around the globe and every bugger knows about it in minutes. So, when we used an owner's 430 Scud because Ferrari wouldn't lend us the test car, it was obliterated in a straight line by a GT2 and a Lambo LP 560-4, despite all the "official" road test figures suggesting it was faster than Halley's Comet. The forums went nuts and some Scud owners rightly felt they hadn't been delivered the car they'd read about in all the buff books. Talk about karma slapping you in the face.
It's the level of control that's so profoundly irritating and I think damaging to the brand. Once you know that it takes a full support crew and two 458s to supply those amazing stats, it then takes the shine off the car. The simple message from Ferrari is that unless you play exactly by the laws they lay down, you're off the list.
What are those laws? Apart from the laughable track test stuff, as a journalist you are expressly forbidden from driving any current Ferrari road car without permission from the factory. So if I want to drive my mate's 458 tomorrow, I have to ask the factory. Will it allow me to drive the car? No: because it is of "unknown provenance," i.e. not tuned. I'm almost tempted to buy a 458, just for the joy of phoning Maranello every morning and asking if its OK if I take my kid to school. Where I've personally run into trouble is by using owners' cars for comparison tests. Ferrari absolutely hates this; even if you say unremittingly nice things about its cars, it goes ape ****. But you want to see a 458 against a GT3 RS so I'm going to deliver that story and that video. Likewise the 599 GTO and the GT2 RS. Ferrari honestly believes it can control every aspect of the media — it has actively intervened several times when I've asked to borrow owners' cars.
The control freakery is getting worse: for the FF launch in March journalists have to say which outlets they are writing it for and those have to be approved by Maranello. Honestly, we're perilously close to having the words and verdicts vetted by the Ferrari press office before they're released, which of course has always been the way in some markets.
Should I give a **** about this stuff? Probably not. It's not like it's a life-and-death situation; supercars are pretty unserious tackle. But the best thing about car nuts is that they let you drive their cars, and Ferrari has absolutely no chance stopping people like me driving what they want to drive. Of course their attempts to stop me makes it an even better sport and merely hardens my resolve, but the sad thing is its cars are so good it doesn't need all this ****e. I'll repeat that for the benefit of any vestige of a chance I might have of ever driving a Ferrari press car ever again (which is virtually none). "Its cars are so good it doesn't need this ****e."
None of this will make any difference to Ferrari. I'm just an irrelevant Limey who doesn't really matter. But I've had enough of concealing what goes on, to the point that I no longer want to be a Ferrari owner, a de-facto member of its bull****-control-edifice. I sold my 575 before Christmas. As pathetic protests go, you have to agree it's high quality.
Jesus, this is now sounding like a properly depressing rant. I'll leave it there. Just remember all this stuff then next time you read a magazine group test with a prancing stallion in it.
_______________________________________________

Chris Harris is a UK-based freelance car writer who once bought a 1995 512 TR but sold it when his mates called him Tubbs and put Jan Hammer on his iPod.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
E. Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 03:47 AM   #2
Back Road Runner
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 60082
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota
Vehicle:
2004 Forester STI
Silver

Default

Not a bad read.

Frankly the supercar market is small. He who has the best numbers gets the sales. Ferrari is doing their job and showing those numbers. If people read them blindly, they get sales.

It is sad that a sale of a supercar has a lot to do with numbers rather than the car itself.
Back Road Runner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 03:51 AM   #3
manticus
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 162857
Join Date: Oct 2007
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Calgary, AB
Default

Wow, I respected this guy when he drove the Subaru Rally Car. I respected his reviews because he usually talks more about feel than any other auto journalist I've seen

And now I respect him even more for calling out Ferrari. Gutsy move. Proper number of cursives included as well.
manticus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 04:19 AM   #4
Indocti Discant
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 138000
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: et ament meminisse periti
Vehicle:
L Bo Hope you meet
the spirit in the sky

Default

rubens barrichello and felipe massa have a valid excuse now!
Indocti Discant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 07:51 AM   #5
needcarinmass
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 258144
Join Date: Sep 2010
Default

Where's the video?
needcarinmass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 07:59 AM   #6
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manticus View Post
Wow, I respected this guy when he drove the Subaru Rally Car. I respected his reviews because he usually talks more about feel than any other auto journalist I've seen

And now I respect him even more for calling out Ferrari. Gutsy move. Proper number of cursives included as well.
+1 I was always a fan of Ferrari and thought their cars were amazing, not by cheating. I feel kind of disappointed, I hope this is no false information.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 08:13 AM   #7
Kentrik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 125937
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: 4894' above sea level.
Vehicle:
03 WRX I do not
like your tweed, chap.

Default

Honestly....I would not be surprised to learn that EVERYBODY tunes up their press car. Remember the Nurburgring GT-R, and how Nissan and Porsche were all toe-to-toe about times on it?

Or my personal favorite....the new Subaru Impreza WRX STi that Tommi Makinen drove at the Nurburgring - at SEMA, the SoA people said that it was stock, but it had obviously been modified slightly cosmetically, had a little bit of suspension work done, and they were abnormally cautious about making sure no one saw under the hood of it...
Kentrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 08:16 AM   #8
Italiano
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2137
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT, USA -what am I doing here?
Vehicle:
a 6spd Manual
Acura

Default

I'm a Ferrari fan,

however I certainly don't like everything that goes down at Maranello.

Quote:
"Its cars are so good it doesn't need this ****e."
^ my .02 also
Italiano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 08:30 AM   #9
fourmicah
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 128760
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Over there>
Vehicle:
2012 Ruckus/WRX
Red&White/Gray

Default

^^^ I'm really not surprised by any of this. I think many car companies are on to this. Look at what the GTR did when it hit the US market. Nissan was able to create a car that was on par with others in the market for 40K+ less, and the platform was so easy to modify it made other products seem weak (relatively speaking) in comparison. I'm not sure why Subaru would do this, they only (really) have to compete with the EVO and it's almost always won on the track.
fourmicah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 09:14 AM   #10
Kentrik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 125937
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: 4894' above sea level.
Vehicle:
03 WRX I do not
like your tweed, chap.

Default

Frankly, I don't know why they would either, but I find all the covered up truth behind the Nurburgring STi VEEERRRYYYY fishy....

If you want to know more, PM MomosaurusWRX. He was trying to uncover all the truth behind it while we were down there, and everybody gave him the runaround.
Kentrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 10:24 AM   #11
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

That Tommi M run was not in a stock subaru. But who cares. It was not in a tube frame one off race car either. Some of the money our fine NASIOCers put into our cars, I have little doubt you could build that car, or some facsimile there of. What that time shows is the capability of the chassis and engine. I think Subaru still has something to be proud of. If they wanted to make a killing. They should sell that exact version tommi drove and call it a Spec M or something.
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 12:29 PM   #12
The Duke
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 264877
Join Date: Nov 2010
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentrik View Post
Honestly....I would not be surprised to learn that EVERYBODY tunes up their press car. Remember the Nurburgring GT-R, and how Nissan and Porsche were all toe-to-toe about times on it?

Or my personal favorite....the new Subaru Impreza WRX STi that Tommi Makinen drove at the Nurburgring - at SEMA, the SoA people said that it was stock, but it had obviously been modified slightly cosmetically, had a little bit of suspension work done, and they were abnormally cautious about making sure no one saw under the hood of it...
EVERY car company sends out specially modified press vehicles. This comes as no surprised. There's even a shop in Detroit the Big 3 use on all thier press vehicles. Car get parts repainted (or even just painted from bare material), sound deadening is installed, gaps fixed, etc. I remember Honda gave an S2K out for press testing and it dyno'd at 240WHP, while a dealer borrowed S2K was dyno'd at 190WHP (Sport Compact Car, Honda never sent them new press cars after that one )

The STI ring record has prototype/one-offs on the car. This was admitted by Subaru Japan I thought, but their justification was that it was a testbed and that most of the parts would see production.


This whole thing comes as no surprise. As mentioned, this crap happens from every manufacturer. Might not be as extreme as Ferrari setting up a car 4 days in advance, but it is a common practice. It's either play along or you won't be invited back, and there are far more journalists willing to fill his shoes. Does it suck? Yeah, but I never trusted magazine times anyways. They're always inflated from ringer cars and professional drivers, compared to an average joe.
The Duke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 03:18 PM   #13
E. Nick
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8489
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Atherton, CA
Vehicle:
1978 Plymouth Volare
Maroon / White Vinyl

Default

I found his article to be very enlightening - spit-shining press cars, I expect, but "cheating" sucks, and while it may occur to a degree with all manufacturers, it seems clear that Ferrari is bringing some of the worst of it. Kudos to Chris for having the sack to call them out.
E. Nick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 04:39 PM   #14
KoalaSlim
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 94002
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kirkwood
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Wagon
DRZ400 GT1000

Default

BRAVO.

They cheat at F1, so this does not surprise me...
KoalaSlim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 04:41 PM   #15
Wannabe WRX
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 130623
Join Date: Oct 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Vehicle:
1999 Impreza RS
Rally Blue

Default

The Makkinen 'Ring STi, from what I remember, was modded as follows:

LW Hood from 2010 Spec-C
Turbo from STi R205
6-pot Fronts from Spec C RA-R

I don't remember Subaru mentioning one-off or custom parts for their 'Ring run.
Wannabe WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 05:13 PM   #16
TRooper
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 62422
Join Date: May 2004
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SCV/SFV
Vehicle:
2006 Lotus Elise
1.8L of Fury!!

Default

The ring STi also had stickier rubber as well, a roll cage, lightweight fixed back seat w/ harness, and a complete flat bottom.

No doubt all the parts metioned would cut the time down. Rubber goes without saying, the cage would make the chassis stiffer, the seats drop weight as well as keeps the driver firmly in place. Sliding around and trying to brace yourself in stock seat/stock belt is a huge distraction from driving. It's my opinion that a driver can't drive a car to it's full potential while in a stock seat in any passenger car, (exotics excluded). A full flat bottom on a high speed track like the Ring is another sure way to drop seconds.
TRooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 06:29 PM   #17
Omophorus
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 165892
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Collegeville, PA
Vehicle:
2011 Mazdaspeed 3
Celestial Blue

Default

Everyone cheats, that's not the part that's a shocker or even particularly disturbing.

It's all the other control freak stuff that's ridiculous.

The stuff like having to get permission from mom (Maranello) to drive any non-factory/non-press Ferrari.

And the stuff like bringing multiple cars optimized for specific traits like straight line speed or slalom times/handling. It's one thing to send a ringer. It's another to send multiple ringers and demand the journalist treat it like one car was present.

And the stuff like having to know in advance the exact venue where a Ferrari press car will be tested, so they can customize its setup for that venue. An owner could modify their car pretty easily and come close to a ringer. But they can't reasonably customize their car for everywhere they want to drive it.
Omophorus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 07:01 PM   #18
samagon
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 26859
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: undisputed COMBAT! champion
Vehicle:
of TXIC
I also like (oYo)!!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentrik View Post
Or my personal favorite....the new Subaru Impreza WRX STi that Tommi Makinen drove at the Nurburgring - at SEMA, the SoA people said that it was stock, but it had obviously been modified slightly cosmetically, had a little bit of suspension work done, and they were abnormally cautious about making sure no one saw under the hood of it...
the people at sema were probably just idiots.

it was well known (especially among enthusiasts) that it wasn't a 'off the factory floor' sti.
samagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 07:11 PM   #19
Mopho
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 32334
Join Date: Jan 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Suitcase-my stuff lives in LA
Vehicle:
05 Outback
Caterham 7 Superlight R

Default

The Ring STI is not a press car, so not particularly relevant


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
EVERY car company sends out specially modified press vehicles.
That's not really true. As Chris mentioned, in this day and age of the internet, the PR damage for getting caught doing such antics is just not worth it. It's pretty rare for companies to provide ringers anymore.
But Ferrari's arrogance is pretty high and people are still going to lust after the cars regardless.
I've had first hand experience with Ferrari providing different cars for testing the numbers and for actual driving. They even flew in their own test driver.



Quote:
This comes as no surprised. There's even a shop in Detroit the Big 3 use on all thier press vehicles. Car get parts repainted (or even just painted from bare material), sound deadening is installed, gaps fixed, etc.

Painting and repairing gaps and such is not the same as modifying the cars for performance. All the manufacturers use car preparation shops to do maintenance, repairs and to make them look good for photography, etc.. Often the press cars are hand built pre production or very early production so they sometimes arrive with mis-aligned panels, damage, etc. and these shops will fix that. Sometimes they repaint the car because they need a different color for photography. In my experience these shops are not set up for modifying the cars for performance.


Quote:
Yeah, but I never trusted magazine times anyways. They're always inflated from ringer cars and professional drivers, compared to an average joe.
And yet so often their are people on forums claiming how they have gotten faster times, or turned better laps than the magazines.
Mopho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 08:59 PM   #20
PlanB
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 175608
Join Date: Mar 2008
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: British Columbia
Vehicle:
2006 Impreza
1998 Honda VFR 800FI

Default

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that this piece of journalism has absolutely ZERO impact on Ferrari sales now, or in the future; and ZERO impact on how people in the auto-industry or the general public feel about Ferrari.

I always assumed that pretty much most manufacturers sent ringers to comparison tests anyway.

Does this guy actually think that makers like Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo ect...are going to go up to the production line and randomly pick a model and send it to a journalist? No, they are going to make sure the test mule sent to a comparison test or a journalist meets the exact (or better) stats they got in their own in-house tests - that is for certain.
PlanB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2011, 10:51 PM   #21
JuggernautTCW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169223
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlanB View Post
I am going to go out on a limb and predict that this piece of journalism has absolutely ZERO impact on Ferrari sales now, or in the future; and ZERO impact on how people in the auto-industry or the general public feel about Ferrari.

I always assumed that pretty much most manufacturers sent ringers to comparison tests anyway.

Does this guy actually think that makers like Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo ect...are going to go up to the production line and randomly pick a model and send it to a journalist? No, they are going to make sure the test mule sent to a comparison test or a journalist meets the exact (or better) stats they got in their own in-house tests - that is for certain.
I think he just wanted to call Ferrari out in the car enthusiast communities. It was a good read. If he was trying to sue Ferrari and raise his publicity to the next level, then yah I would agree with you on his intention of trying to do some vigilante work.
JuggernautTCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:07 AM   #22
Kentrik
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 125937
Join Date: Sep 2006
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: 4894' above sea level.
Vehicle:
03 WRX I do not
like your tweed, chap.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuggernautTCW View Post
I think he just wanted to call Ferrari out in the car enthusiast communities.
This is a good point. I know that every community has their fanbois, but Ferrari makes a KILLING off of not just selling a car, but selling a lifestyle. It's ridiculous just how much they worship them. Yeah, they're sweet cars, and fairly technical, but they're immensely overrated.
Kentrik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 08:08 AM   #23
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Well, BIG 3, Subaru, Honda, and other cheap car manufacturers I can understand for "juicing up a little bit during competition", but not a car from a company that people will drop over $200k for. They are elite, ivy league, prestige... or whatever. It's like high school athletics vs the Olympics.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 09:08 AM   #24
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 That's *Sir*
Weinerlicks of Douche 2u.

Default

Ferrari hooks most of its customers when they're kids reading specs out of magazines. Kids don't care about ringers.. they just care about numbers.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2011, 11:48 AM   #25
LIQUIDSK8S
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22605
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Vehicle:
2002 JDM STI/WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentrik View Post
Honestly....I would not be surprised to learn that EVERYBODY tunes up their press car. Remember the Nurburgring GT-R, and how Nissan and Porsche were all toe-to-toe about times on it?
Actually the standard GT-R was that fast. Independent magazines have done laps that were much faster than what Porsche did with the GT-R......some even equaled their times but in the wet. We also have a guy who drives for us in some of the classic series, he does events at the Ring with the GT-R and said "Doing around 7min30 is easy in this car". Porsche was just upset..... which is why they created the GT2RS......yet again competition = win for the consumer
LIQUIDSK8S is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What are the chances Chris Hanson will be stopping by ... KingGalantVr4 Off-Topic 34 06-16-2010 02:20 PM
Chris Bangle says great cars are art wistful Off-Topic 13 09-19-2009 12:59 PM
Infidelity 3/11/08: You Would Cheat, You Have Cheated, But would you stay. TarmacRally Off-Topic 39 03-11-2008 11:17 PM
Have you ever cheated or caught cheating??? richde Off-Topic 37 02-25-2008 09:55 PM
Women are lying, cheating, whores docwhorocks Off-Topic 61 05-13-2003 05:27 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.