PhatBotti Tuning & Alliance Fabrications 2002 WRX GTX35 2.5L Build

[Phatron]

i ended up getting a basically free shortblock depending on how much kenny's gonna charge me....and a set of DAVCS heads for $800. So if all i gotta buy is internals....you are back in the picture

Are your motors sleeved like the ones dom sells?

If i ship you the block n heads....how much to receive back a super 9k rpm LR monster?

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[Homemade WRX]

can't respond to that at the moment. Still setting up fixed prices with a new to me machine shop (I moved) and am getting my vendor jazz back up and running. I know they do good work from speaking with them and several co-workers with single digit cars.

[Phatron]

Ok.....so the car currently has the following tranny setup

06 STi 6 speed
R160 with 3.90
STi driveshaft....getting an aluminum one made
stock 02 wrx axles

I need some brainstorming here....what is the cheapest/easiest way for me to be able to trap 140mph by 7500rpm in 4th gear?

I know the PPG drag boxes can achieve this....but a 6speed ppg box is $10-15k

Are there any other options out there? Swap back to a 5speed box and 5speed drag gears?

throw in 3.7 gears? can i just throw in a single gear to my tranny? IE leave everything the same except throw in a 4th gear from an 07+ STi? Could i just throw in the PPG 4th gear and nothing else?

Im using an online calculator right now....and with a 07+ STi 4th gear and 3.7 rear I can get 130mph at 7500rpm in 4th.....

With a PPG drag 4th gear (0.96) and a 3.9 rear......gives 146mph in 4th.

[Homemade WRX]

plans to spool rear and possibly center?

seeing the limit of 7500, I'm guessing you are planning on staying with the EJ25. Easiest way is to have a motor that stretches out. IIRC 4th gear in a stock 07 sti trans is 152 mph at 9k on stock rolling diameters...just giving values for kicking around for quick interpolation.

If you are set on the low redline, the ppg 5-spd is your best bet and you also won't be making more than their 'rated' 800 hp limit.

[Phatron]

Im not set on 7500rpm....if someone can convince me that the motor is gonna live above that.......to which i believe the response is gonna be "a long rod will"

I dont even know the necessary mods for high rpm....springs and a 11-12mm oil pump?

[Homemade WRX]

I'm not going to say a long rod will simply because that's what you're expecting

Instead I'll say I know a guy who has a 2432cc engine that visits north of 9k at the strip and did his first refresh after 2 'seasons' because he wanted to see how the bottom end was after touching 10k a few times in 1 and 2.

Are you running AVCS or not? 11mm and 10mm respectively unless your running LARGE oil clearances, in which case I'd bump both by 1mm.

[69subaru360]

Originally Posted by Phatron

Ok.....so the car currently has the following tranny setup

06 STi 6 speed
R160 with 3.90
STi driveshaft....getting an aluminum one made
stock 02 wrx axles

I need some brainstorming here....what is the cheapest/easiest way for me to be able to trap 140mph by 7500rpm in 4th gear?

I know the PPG drag boxes can achieve this....but a 6speed ppg box is $10-15k

Are there any other options out there? Swap back to a 5speed box and 5speed drag gears?

throw in 3.7 gears? can i just throw in a single gear to my tranny? IE leave everything the same except throw in a 4th gear from an 07+ STi? Could i just throw in the PPG 4th gear and nothing else?

Im using an online calculator right now....and with a 07+ STi 4th gear and 3.7 rear I can get 130mph at 7500rpm in 4th.....

With a PPG drag 4th gear (0.96) and a 3.9 rear......gives 146mph in 4th.

It think doing 3rd and 4th makes more sense. If you just put in the 4th, you would have a ridiculous rpm drop on the shift and the car would fall on it's face. Do the 3/4 gears and put on a tall set of slicks so you don't have to change the final drive. 27" should work. I'm not sure if you can get 28" to fit or not?

[Phatron]

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

I'm not going to say a long rod will simply because that's what you're expecting

The thing is I just dont want this to turn into a science project.

The wrx has been here for 10 years now and 8000rpm is not even common place.....so i will assume that people have tried and been unsuccessful and experienced significant failures while doing so. Most of the "fully built" cars in ppb with all the motor and headwork you can imagine dont even post up 8k dyno plots.

I think by limiting myself to 7500rpm and 30-32 psi i will be foregoing many of the issues high hp cars run into....and i am getting around the "power loss" from limiting those parameters by dropping weight. Which theoretically should produce a similar P/W ratio while being more reliable.

The rev limit is kinda a sour point for me when tuning cars too. I am a tuner....i can modify the ecu....i am not a motor builder, nor a valvetrain expert. I simply dont have the resources or research capability to say things like

- upgraded single valve springs = 200rpm rev limit bump
- dual valve springs = 400 rev limit bump
- 11mm oil pump = 200 rev limit bump
- lighter rotating assembly = 500 rpm bump

I imagine most builders rev limits are simply an educated guesstimation based of something like i listed above....along with the balancing and blueprinting the motor.

But even once all that is done....what oil do you use? How does one determine that the oil provides the proper wedge at 9000rpm?

I mean if someone wants to sell me a 9000rpm 1000whp motor.....with a warranty....then i would gladly shell out the cash for one....

Its comical to me to see the hp and rpm ratings shops provide for their motors.....especially the ones claiming 800-1000hp and a 9000rpm redline.....and they dont have dyno charts showing either....and havent even produced any 10 second cars.

The only places i would believe with that stuff are rigoli, esx (they were revving to 10k), cosworth (iso9000 and all their accomplishments), you (cuz i have an idea what you do for a living and have seen the engineering data you provide), and junior (he has had a hand in building and tuning more 9-10 sec subies than anyone else i can think of atm).

Cliff notes: i dont know chit about motors

[kellygnsd]

Originally Posted by 69subaru360

It think doing 3rd and 4th makes more sense. If you just put in the 4th, you would have a ridiculous rpm drop on the shift and the car would fall on it's face. Do the 3/4 gears and put on a tall set of slicks so you don't have to change the final drive. 27" should work. I'm not sure if you can get 28" to fit or not?

You have to change the gears in pairs anyways. 1&2, 3&4, etc. are the same cog so to speak.

[Phatron]

^^ that was the sort of thing i was looking for....

so is it possible to do 3-4 dog gears....and leave 1,2,5,6 alone?

[kellygnsd]

I don't know about mixing dog and synchro gears but its worth a shot.

[Phatron]

i mean the gears dont even need to be dog gears....i just want the ratios.....

[maxpowr]

Just call jodie ron. He can answer all your questions.

Nothing against junior but why not have jodie build it?

One stop shopping, motor and trans.
Ship the car out and i'll drive it back...

Text me if you dont have last minute motorsports number.

[Homemade WRX]

I completely understand your point of view completely. I'm a base engine guy with an understanding (though not intimate) with the ECU side of things, though it's the majority of my day to day work in the test cell.

tall tires and tall gears will help get the EJ25 up and going. Getting and EJ25 to be reliable at speed takes a lot more $$$ than a long rod in my opinion. Certain OTS valvetrain/springs is up to the job and the destroked +4mm at 9k is seeing the same acceleration (and less force due to reciprocating mass) as the EJ257 at 8k.
Just trying to clarify things for you.

I think the taller gears and tires will be fine but will simply say to stack all the VE in the ratio drop range as possible. No reason to keep power below that.

[maxpowr]

lets talk more about the destroked +4mm at 9k with same acceleration as the ej257 at 8k!

i'm like huh?

[juanmedina]

Originally Posted by Phatron

The thing is I just dont want this to turn into a science project.

The wrx has been here for 10 years now and 8000rpm is not even common place.....so i will assume that people have tried and been unsuccessful and experienced significant failures while doing so. Most of the "fully built" cars in ppb with all the motor and headwork you can imagine dont even post up 8k dyno plots.

I think by limiting myself to 7500rpm and 30-32 psi i will be foregoing many of the issues high hp cars run into....and i am getting around the "power loss" from limiting those parameters by dropping weight. Which theoretically should produce a similar P/W ratio while being more reliable.

The rev limit is kinda a sour point for me when tuning cars too. I am a tuner....i can modify the ecu....i am not a motor builder, nor a valvetrain expert. I simply dont have the resources or research capability to say things like

- upgraded single valve springs = 200rpm rev limit bump
- dual valve springs = 400 rev limit bump
- 11mm oil pump = 200 rev limit bump
- lighter rotating assembly = 500 rpm bump

I imagine most builders rev limits are simply an educated guesstimation based of something like i listed above....along with the balancing and blueprinting the motor.

But even once all that is done....what oil do you use? How does one determine that the oil provides the proper wedge at 9000rpm?

I mean if someone wants to sell me a 9000rpm 1000whp motor.....with a warranty....then i would gladly shell out the cash for one....

Its comical to me to see the hp and rpm ratings shops provide for their motors.....especially the ones claiming 800-1000hp and a 9000rpm redline.....and they dont have dyno charts showing either....and havent even produced any 10 second cars.

The only places i would believe with that stuff are rigoli, esx (they were revving to 10k), cosworth (iso9000 and all their accomplishments), you (cuz i have an idea what you do for a living and have seen the engineering data you provide), and junior (he has had a hand in building and tuning more 9-10 sec subies than anyone else i can think of atm).

Cliff notes: i dont know chit about motors

You also have to look at a turbo that will make peak power at around 9000rpm, or have a headwork that will sustain power to around 9000rpm which is currently an unknown territory since this new long rod subaru engines are so new and no one revs that high.

I really like the idea of a long rod engine and it make sense, but we need more than math; we need actual testing. I know it will happen Micah and Maxwell just need time .

Ron sell the 6-speed tranny and contact Maxwell and get the long ratio Albins gear helical set. You can actually get customs ratios at no extra cost from what I heard. Match the ratios to the turbo

What kind of head work are you planning to do? I have spend a lot of time on the built motor section and from what I seen most people drop valves, crack ported heads etc etc Jay05 dropping valves twice and trashing the motor . Ron it seems that your are planning a smart and for the built to be as reliable as possible. From what I seen there is nothing better than the stock valves and springs, I haven't seen anyone have problems. If your goal is 140-145mph 500-500whp Airboy with low weight you will be ok with the stock valve train with some BC 272 cams and some porting. Again Coolrex trapped 135mph with stock unported WRX heads with my stock WRX cams. A lot people will disagree with me on this one but I think the point of your built is to make many many 1/4th of miles passes, not a few. Correct?

Also, the full face clutch will not do the job. It will hold for 1.5' and FFS, and you will probably will be over the torque capacity. Run a 6-puck clutch, a twin disk or triple disk.

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by maxpowr

lets talk more about the destroked +4mm at 9k with same acceleration as the ej257 at 8k!

i'm like huh?

yeah, the 2.34 walks all over it

perrin 3582r vs ts hta 30r
2.34L (8.3L:1, stupid low) vs EJ257
pump 92 w/aem WI vs MS109
21.5psi vs 28psi
Kelford 272's vs Kelford 264's
MPS dyno vs Cobb dyno (so take with a grain of salt)

Neat little overlay that armysoldierboy put together of his car againts one of MPS' 2.34 +2mm setups.

[Phatron]

i'll look into the gears.....

i almost bought the xt 6 puck today, but i need to decide on the tranny route first

[maxpowr]

i'm gonna call act tomorrow and find out about disc interchangeablity.

[Homemade WRX]

5-spd clutch can go into the 6-spd but the other way around. I'm not sure if the two discs are interchangeable. I know NA to 5-spd is but never checked my 5-6spd stuff

[juanmedina]

Originally Posted by Phatron

i'll look into the gears.....

i almost bought the xt 6 puck today, but i need to decide on the tranny route first

remember to get the sprung one, even thought the unsprung is better recommended for drag racing but its is an on/off switch . If you are not going to make no more than 450wtq Airboy stay with the HD plate.

Originally Posted by Homemade WRX

5-spd clutch can go into the 6-spd but the other way around. I'm not sure if the two discs are interchangeable. I know NA to 5-spd is but never checked my 5-6spd stuff

Probably the 6-speed disk will not work with 5-speed PP. But you can fit the 6-speed clutch with a 5-speed tranny but you have to grind the tranny case....

[NSFW]

OMG you so totally cannot just compare those two cars!

[maxpowr]

i'm talkin about using the 6 speed hd pressure plate and flywheel, with the 6 speed 6 puck sprung clutch disc...

i believe juan said he was running a setup in this fashion. sounds good to me...

[juanmedina]

Originally Posted by maxpowr

i'm talkin about using the 6 speed hd pressure plate and flywheel, with the 6 speed 6 puck sprung clutch disc...

i believe juan said he was running a setup in this fashion. sounds good to me...

ok, if that is the case all the disk are interchangeable, you can run any 6-speed disk you want with any 6-speed PP.

[kellygnsd]

Originally Posted by maxpowr

i'm gonna call act tomorrow and find out about disc interchangeablity.

Any ACT disk with work with any pressure plate/flywheel combo in the same series, ie six speed or 5 speed. You can choose the street disck, 6-puck sprung or un-sprung or anything else they offer.