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Old 03-29-2011, 02:03 PM   #51
williaty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaptainKandy View Post
You are being had and at a premium price to boot.
Bingo.

Xcell is using his ignorance on technical matters to rape him on price.
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:53 PM   #52
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Kaptain... how do u know it can't be done? i never said anything about efficient.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:01 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA-Outback2000 View Post
Kaptain... how do u know it can't be done? i never said anything about efficient.
I said that an aggressive N/A cam can be used in conjunction with a turbo but it simply wont be efficient. The characteristics of the cams for a turbo and N/A cam are almost completely opposite. To say that this cam is an aggressive N/A and turbo cam simply isn't true.

The fact that Xcell hasn't told you this is shady on their behalf.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:05 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by KaptainKandy View Post
The fact that Xcell hasn't told you this is shady on their behalf.
Or, the OP simply miss-understands the facts.
Recall, we're dealing with 2nd hand info here.
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Old 03-29-2011, 03:59 PM   #55
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From the sounds of the build pages from the N/A and supercharged cars it seems as though they have different cams.

n/a build says: Custom Stage 4 cams: 445 lift, Power to 8000 r.p.m plus

supercharged build says: Custom Cams, Springs and Retainers, developed for Supercharging, 7500 r.p.m. Redline

the picture of the cam from the n/a build almost looks used. There is a sticker on the engine of the supercharge build with the 'hotcams' logo on it.

hotcams makes things for bikes and such...

http://www.hotcamsinc.com/ProductSearch.aspx

so xcell gets hotcams to make their cams...?

sounds like you've been misinformed or you've misunderstood. but your cams will either work well for n/a, OR work well for turbo, OR have no real gains of stock...

GL. hope this gets sorted out...
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:38 PM   #56
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I think the only guarantee is that he will be paying an exorbitant amount of money.
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Old 03-29-2011, 04:55 PM   #57
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To the OP... I think you are simply not totally understanding what is being presented to you. I think you might have simply over-hyped and over-stated what you are getting. It's totally reasonable&possible that a cam profile exists that is a "decent" cam for both Turbo and NA setups. But, this will NOT be an extreme cam in either direction. It'll be a "mild" cam of some sort.. not a "MAX" cam with HUGE improvements in all situations.

Old, but evidence of this possibility:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...4&postcount=17
You'll also notice they talk about two "race" cams, one for NA and one for Turbo. Again, more evidence that 2 profiles are needed for the "hi-perf" end of performance in each.

Add to that the fact that the guys at Delta were very sure (no Dyno to prove it though.. yet) their "Torque" grind would be an improvement over the OEM cam with my supercharger. And, give the "Torque" grind is an improvement over stock, it's not unreasonable to have a "it works well for both" cam. But, it's very worth noting their "torque" grind is NOT their "Race" grind. Aka, it's a mild cam, not a wild cam.

That said, that is another point people here are having issue with.
Spending gobs and gobs of money on a product that can be had for a fraction of the cost. eg... don't spend (warning made up #s following) $2,000 for a "mild" cam from Company A, when you can spend $200 for "mild" cams from Company B and achieve the same result.

Last edited by Skidd; 03-29-2011 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 03-29-2011, 05:17 PM   #58
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^I agree completely. But i still want someone to get the cams to see how they do.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:22 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidd View Post
eg... don't spend (warning made up #s following) $2,000 for a "mild" cam from Company A, when you can spend $200 for "mild" cams from Company B and achieve the same result.


Those numbers don't seem so made up.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:19 PM   #60
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I don't think I can read this anymore... but its like a train crash, I can not look away! So painful
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:24 PM   #61
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I don't know. I'm learning something, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidd View Post
A little reading fun to help a bit on cam differences
http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1...nes/index.html
^Cool link. Never really thought about the relation between boost and flow like that before.
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Old 03-30-2011, 12:16 AM   #62
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PA, there's just a lot of talk simply because of the price and what the cams will and will not do for you versus other, much more affordable options. What you want to do effectively seems like a complete waste of money. You listening to or ignoring the criticism is your choice. All I can really suggest to you is that there are a lot of cam options out there for both NA and turbo for these cars, pretty much all of which are cheaper and still available with a wide variety of lift, duration, and overlap as needed per the build. You can even talk with a company like Delta and get something specific to your application for less. Like Williaty said, cams are a very known quantity in the engine world. There is no magic going on and nothing secretive.
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Old 03-30-2011, 08:46 AM   #63
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BRR... I actually agree with something u say. right now all the posts here r just talk and speculation. i will be dyno-ing the car at ICS, the same place i have used for the last 3 series of runs, after cams r installed so we cam have some results to compare to. so until then, talking is just talking.

also, like u said my choice is my choice. i am choosing something that i believe in as others have chosen companies that they believe in. everyone's opinions are different and free will makes that possible. whether or not the so-called "guru's", (who probably haven't done their own work anyway) like it or not, i am going with xcceleration. i will be glad to post my results when i get them.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:13 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by PA-Outback2000 View Post
also, like u said my choice is my choice. i am choosing something that i believe in as others have chosen companies that they believe in. everyone's opinions are different and free will makes that possible. like it or not, i am going with xcceleration. i will be glad to post my results when i get them.
You are entitled to your own wrong opinion Not serious.




a little serious ...

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Originally Posted by PA-Outback2000 View Post
whether or not the so-called "guru's", (who probably haven't done their own work anyway)
Oh boy...
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:05 AM   #65
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In the imortal words of Murphy!
"A fool and his money are soon parted!"
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:24 AM   #66
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^
after there's been this much discussion about value, and there's been no change of mind, just let the man do it.

I think if PA comes back with accurate and truthful dyno comparisons, then we will all benefit from his endeavor, regardless what the increase in performance is....
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:38 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by PA-Outback2000 View Post
so-called "guru's", (who probably haven't done their own work anyway)
Oh? The fact that I've built my own car from the ground up, done more testing of NA Subaru parts (far beyond what's published here) than just about anyone for the GD-era stuff, worked for one of the pre-eminent Subaru shops in the country, and now own my own Subaru shop doesn't count as doing my own work?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidd View Post
In the imortal words of Murphy!
"A fool and his money are soon parted!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattmak View Post
I think if PA comes back with accurate and truthful dyno comparisons
He won't. There's too many ways to lie with a dyno, both on purpose and by accident. Just the fact that there's obviously going to be a large time elapsed between the dyno pulls he's already made and the dyno pulls he needs to make is enough to invalidate the comparison to other cams.
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:40 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattmak
^
after there's been this much discussion about value, and there's been no change of mind, just let the man do it.

I think if PA comes back with accurate and truthful dyno comparisons, then we will all benefit from his endeavor, regardless what the increase in performance is....
Go look at his last dyno sheets... Accurate is probably not the best word for them. But if the same "accuracy" is achieved then already gains will be measured. I have a suspicion that xcceleration may fudge the #'s a bit to help the customer feel better about how much $ they are spending. Just my opinion, though
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:50 PM   #69
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He won't. There's too many ways to lie with a dyno, both on purpose and by accident.
yeah, well I was afraid of that.

so, PA, here is a selfish request. ok, two:

- if you can afford those cams, then maybe you have the resources to do a before and after pull on a dyno of your own? also, aren't the above reactions good reason to do so?

- forget those cams and get the still expensive TWE "Stage 2.5" cams from Tom at TWE. I'd much rather hear about those.


I still say let the man do it. because even if the results are "too good to be true", then it should lead to more discussion and maybe someone else going out to validate the findings by getting the same cams.
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:40 PM   #70
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i wasn't naming anyone specifically.

what does elapsed time between a series of runs have to do with anything?

the car will be run on the same dyno, ICS of Stamford not at all associated with xcceleration, using the same set-up that my last 3 were run. the only differences will be temp, atmospheric pressure, and humidity. as far as i know you can't go in and manually edit the plot the dyno makes, so what ways can u make a dyno lie?
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:38 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA-Outback2000 View Post
what does elapsed time between a series of runs have to do with anything?
Both the car and the dyno will naturally drift over time.

Quote:
so what ways can u make a dyno lie?
Calibration factor
Correction factor
Roller lubrication
Strap tension
Strap angle
Tire pressure
Tire choice
Chassis positioning
Composition of the air in the dyno room (yes really)

And that's just the easy stuff.

Not to mention all the things you can do to the car that seem innocuous but are major sources of error.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:26 AM   #72
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still... gains are gains. it's not like i am going for the 1st time after the work is done. i have 3 prior run series to compare to. i am going to the same place to rule out as many inconsistencies as possible.

as to ur list:

not sure what that is
i think the runs were done with factor 0, but not sure.
won't know their maintenance schedule unless i ask them
they use ratchet straps and "click" down till it can't click again
they use ratchet straps, 2 front, 2 rear, left crossing right and right crossing left, an "X"
same pressure ratio - 35psi fron, 33psi rear and have been running that for about 4 years
same tires - michelin pilot sport a/s plus 225/60/16
by this u mean laterally on the rollers?
that changes every second so no 2 times are exactly the same

what r some other ones?
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Old 03-31-2011, 11:03 AM   #73
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2 dyno runs back to back can be different. Barometric pressure can change, ambient room temps will change. There will always be 100 different factors that can change so a dyno is really only good for as much as you want to trust the numbers. Most of the factors will only make a small percentage of change so if you get a 20hp gain it might only be 18 or it could be 22 but either way you will see a difference and you are the only one that will really be able to feel the difference so go for it and lets see how they do.
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:23 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA-Outback2000 View Post

also, like u said my choice is my choice. i am choosing something that i believe in as others have chosen companies that they believe in. everyone's opinions are different and free will makes that possible. whether or not the so-called "guru's", (who probably haven't done their own work anyway) like it or not, i am going with xcceleration. i will be glad to post my results when i get them.
You're right. My results are non-existent. Most of us have been respectful of you and not called you the f-ing ignorant retard that you are and kept it to the technical aspect of it. Believe it or not our sole motivation here is to keep you from spending way more money on something than you need to spend. Our results do speak for themselves. Our experience in these matters is something you can learn from if you pull your self righteous head out of your arse.

That said, I'm done. You can't teach a fool to be smart. Post your results when you're done with this build. I'll be around to laugh at you....
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Old 04-01-2011, 11:47 AM   #75
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OP needs to refrain from describing these cams as Aggressive.
Aggressive implies a cam at leading edge of high performance.
But, the OP claims they are a good cam that maintains good idle and drive-ability.
Something an Aggressive NA cam struggles to do.

Imagine "Solid Lifter Aggressive Cam in a Chevy Nova SB-350". What do you get?
A car that can't idle below 1500 rpm, but screams to 6000 and above!

PA, you simply need to admit to yourself, it's not an "Aggressive" cam, but instead just a "cam". Or, if it is indeed an "Aggressive" cam, you had better question it's design purpose, and your intended use of it.

That said, if you still don't want to consider all the information presented here... so be it! You can lead a horse to water.....
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