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Old 03-28-2011, 09:09 AM   #1
MattPersman
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Default Five-0 motorsport Injectors tuning thread

I figured I would make this thread here instead of the car part review.

Basically Phatbotti tuning and CamTuning have been tuning these injectors on different cars with different issues. some success, some challenges.

My car Phatron of Phatbotti tuning is working on tuning at the moment. I installed the 1400cc Densos from Five-0 and have misfiring on cylinder #4 at idle. Cam of CamTuning suggested to log pulse width at idle. He has the 2000s and had to go above .8 to get them to idle correctly. I took a few screen shots from this morning. 2 at idle showing the misfire with .5425; and 1 at a normal throttle level with no misfires and the reading of 1.2995

so here are the screen shots and Ron and Cam and whoever can give insight to issues. I am still unsure about #4 injector. I think it might be dumping fuel at idle as its the only one with consistant misfires.


By mattpersman at 2011-03-28


By mattpersman at 2011-03-28


By mattpersman at 2011-03-28
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:09 AM   #2
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:10 AM   #3
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Guys feel free to add to or post up tuning solutions, problems, questions about these Five-0 injectors. Thanks to Phatbotti and CamTuning
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:11 AM   #4
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I started doing some non idle tuning on my 2000's today. I had a misfire on 2, 3 and 4, but mostly 4 when I had it idling leaner. After my drive to work today I let it idle for a minute and could feel it misfiring even though it was rich (4 byte pulsewidth ~.83). Now cylinder #1 was misfiring. I'm going to work on my MAF scaling for a bit and see if it gets any better but my fuel economy is going to be junk running 12.5-12.8:1 in closed loop. This is on E85 so I probably won't ever be able to get these to run well on 91.
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Old 03-28-2011, 10:43 AM   #5
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mine is on 93 right now just trying to get these dialed in, I was wondering if e85 would increase the pulse width?
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Old 03-28-2011, 11:19 AM   #6
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mine is on 93 right now just trying to get these dialed in, I was wondering if e85 would increase the pulse width?
Yes because it needs ~27% more fuel.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:31 PM   #7
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Yeah...moving straight to e85 would increase the IPW but i think they may be a bad move.

You should really swap that injector to another cylinder and see if the msifires follow it. Switching to e85 might mask a bad injector.....
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:33 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by 06rexwagon View Post
This is on E85 so I probably won't ever be able to get these to run well on 91.
yeah probably not. i could only lean them out to 12:1 on my wrx on 91 oct. It still idled the same as it did with 740's...just with a richer AFR...i was impressed by that.
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Old 03-28-2011, 12:39 PM   #9
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Same with this phatbotti... Some 1200/1400/1600 are a pleasure to tune. I have one car that runs perfect with a built 35r setup but will throw 52 misfires in 4 and up to 12 in 1-3. Played with it for hours.

Other cases are @ 1.5 maf volts the correction swings from -25 to + 25. On some cars, dialing the injectors takes 10 minutes.

Cant really make any correlations other than the fact that they seem to be hit or miss.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:01 PM   #10
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Same with this phatbotti... Some 1200/1400/1600 are a pleasure to tune. I have one car that runs perfect with a built 35r setup but will throw 52 misfires in 4 and up to 12 in 1-3. Played with it for hours.

Other cases are @ 1.5 maf volts the correction swings from -25 to + 25. On some cars, dialing the injectors takes 10 minutes.

Cant really make any correlations other than the fact that they seem to be hit or miss.
I haven't logged for misfires yet with mine. But from the Maftabs I have done; It shows a nice solid grouping within the +/- 0 range. But at really light throttle like 10% it hesitates from -25 to +25.
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Old 03-28-2011, 01:14 PM   #11
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heres matt's injector tab...you can see below 0.8ms it just drops like a rock.

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Old 03-28-2011, 02:35 PM   #12
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I just got off the phone with Tony at T1 Race Development (the folks who sell the ID's) and he said you cant really expect these large injectors to run fine and never misfire.

He said they do great considering what they are...a huge azz injector on a small litre motor trying to idle at 900rpm, but that you cant expect miracles and expect them to never misfire or idle like injectors half the size.

So, the options seem to be....raise the idle and switch to e85 to get the IPW up......as for pump gas....it doesnt seem promising...the only thing i can think of is to run them like cam did and have them idling at 12.5:1

Bumping up the fuel pressure would probably help too.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:00 PM   #13
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Bumping up the fuel pressure would probably help too.
I could see how bumping up the fuel pressure would help with the spray pattern at low IPW, however bumping up the fuel pressure also means lowering the IPW even further, which I think might cause more problems than it helps.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:31 PM   #14
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I talked to Bruce from 5.0 today on the phone and he told me he would send me a new set once I gave him the tracking number for the set I have returning in the mail. I wanted just one injector and even offered to buy it for now till he got the 1 bad one back and he claimed that is a bad idea and he would not do it cause the injectors are "matched". I am not an injector scientist but I am a professional automotive and diesel technician and that does not seem right to me. swapping 4 injectors back to my DW750s then putting 4 more 1400s later instead of a simple 1 injector swap. at least he offered a new set with no hesitation.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I just got off the phone with Tony at T1 Race Development (the folks who sell the ID's) and he said you cant really expect these large injectors to run fine and never misfire.

He said they do great considering what they are...a huge azz injector on a small litre motor trying to idle at 900rpm, but that you cant expect miracles and expect them to never misfire or idle like injectors half the size.

So, the options seem to be....raise the idle and switch to e85 to get the IPW up......as for pump gas....it doesnt seem promising...the only thing i can think of is to run them like cam did and have them idling at 12.5:1

Bumping up the fuel pressure would probably help too.
12.5:1 was the only setting that didn't make my car have bouncy idle.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:37 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by MattPersman View Post
I talked to Bruce from 5.0 today on the phone and he told me he would send me a new set once I gave him the tracking number for the set I have returning in the mail. I wanted just one injector and even offered to buy it for now till he got the 1 bad one back and he claimed that is a bad idea and he would not do it cause the injectors are "matched". I am not an injector scientist but I am a professional automotive and diesel technician and that does not seem right to me. swapping 4 injectors back to my DW750s then putting 4 more 1400s later instead of a simple 1 injector swap. at least he offered a new set with no hesitation.
I wonder if you provided him with the flow information that was sent with your injectors if he would bite.
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Old 03-28-2011, 03:45 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by 2gnt2wrx View Post
12.5:1 was the only setting that didn't make my car have bouncy idle.
if your going to switch to e85 you might as well do it now.

with e85 the IPW at 14.7 should be higher than what it is at 12.5 on pump gas.

Hopefully this will solve the issue....

If you're not planning on e85 we will probably have to do cam's trick with the 02 sensor scaling, but that is gonna destroy any gas mileage.
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Old 03-28-2011, 04:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPersman View Post
I talked to Bruce from 5.0 today on the phone and he told me he would send me a new set once I gave him the tracking number for the set I have returning in the mail. I wanted just one injector and even offered to buy it for now till he got the 1 bad one back and he claimed that is a bad idea and he would not do it cause the injectors are "matched". I am not an injector scientist but I am a professional automotive and diesel technician and that does not seem right to me. swapping 4 injectors back to my DW750s then putting 4 more 1400s later instead of a simple 1 injector swap. at least he offered a new set with no hesitation.
Aftermarket injectors don't have same quality control constraints as OEM. Every injector that falls off of the assembly line flows a different amount of fuel. Rather than crank up the quality control of the assembly process to produce consistent injectors (simultaneously jacking up the per-injector price), most companies choose to simply produce a mass of injectors, test them, and put them into matched sets. It's similar to buying aftermarket pistons or connecting rods, the manufacturer simply puts them in matched sets. The end result is all four are within say .1% of each other, and a second set are all within .1% of each other, but when you compare the two sets to each other they might be 5% off or more.

I imagine this sorting/matching is done at the manufacturing facility rather than in Five-O's office, so if you just sent back one injector, he would have to search through all of the other sets he has on hand to find a set that was close, and send you one of those. If he doesn't keep a huge inventory in-stock, it might take weeks or months before a set finally came along that was close enough for you to use. It would make much more sense to just send you a new complete set instead of going through that process (and possibly making you wait weeks or months before a compatible set came along).
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Old 03-28-2011, 09:30 PM   #19
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ok so I put the DW750s back in and its happy again. I really am not a fan of working on my own cars since I do it for 9-10 hours a day 5-6 days a week. here is a screen shot proof bad injector



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

don't get me wrong I have put junk "reman" Cummins CRD injectors in trucks and it makes ya second guess yourself cause it's supposed to be good then you gotta pull it all apart again. I waited quite some time before I bit the bullet and bought injectors and the DW pump to switch to E85 and then this happens. makes you want to just keep a low power 93 octane on small injectors.
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Old 03-29-2011, 12:01 AM   #20
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Ok, got my issue fixed thanks to Cameron and Ron

Idling around 12.5...had to bump up latency
misfires are almost gone.
Get a little from inj #2, but it looks like a little bit of fuel is leaking
Will check on that tomorrow.

btw, ID2000
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Old 03-29-2011, 12:14 AM   #21
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Jakes car is idling at 12.5-12.8 pretty consistent

i did the 02 sensor scale "hack".....multiplied the whole table by 15%

should be on e85 tomorrow....so hopefully it will work out normally without these shenanigans.
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Old 03-29-2011, 06:10 AM   #22
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I understand I am try to put 2x the injector in the car over what I have now, I just want a set that does not have a bum injector that misfires non stop at stop lights. if i have 4 good injectors and a random 1 or 2 misfires thats cool I understand that, that is ALOT of fuel for a 2.5 engine at 800 Rpm idle. I would also be willing to try a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark to see if adding spark power would clean up the low end, if it doesn't, it doesn't.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:08 AM   #23
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I understand I am try to put 2x the injector in the car over what I have now, I just want a set that does not have a bum injector that misfires non stop at stop lights. if i have 4 good injectors and a random 1 or 2 misfires thats cool I understand that, that is ALOT of fuel for a 2.5 engine at 800 Rpm idle. I would also be willing to try a Kenne Bell Boost A Spark to see if adding spark power would clean up the low end, if it doesn't, it doesn't.
Ron did the o2 sensor trick on my car, and now it runs smooth at 12.8:1 idle. He also raised idle to 1200rpm. I'm not sure if there is any negative effects from running AFR's like this but so far so good. E-85 later

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Old 03-29-2011, 09:38 AM   #24
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Interesting. Im swapping the FiveO 1200cc EV14 topfeeds in my car with a DW fuelpump, Aeromotive FuelRails, Fuel Lab FPR. "40psi base pressure" Maf wise Im running a KSTech 83mm CAI "Perrin fmic/APS turbo inlet style"

First it will be on 93oct, then a E85 tune...

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Old 03-29-2011, 11:22 AM   #25
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^^ thats gonna be fun on a 16bit car.....you're gonna end up with a scalar of like 200cc
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