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Old 07-21-2002, 01:21 PM   #1
HoRo1
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Question F1 - who's the greatest?

I culled these statistics from another web site:
Starts Wins Poles Fast laps Podium finishes
J.M. Fangio 59 24 (41%) 29(49%) 23(39%) 35(59%)
J. Clark 73 25(34%) 33(45%) 28(38%) 32(43%)
J. Stewart 100 27(27%) 17(17%) 15(15%) 43(43%)
A. Senna 162 41(25%) 65(40%) 19(12%) 80(49%)
Schumacher 172 61(35%) 46(27%) 47(27%) 108(62%)

Drivers are listed chronologically. I did not include DNFs, but it seems from a glance at the raw data that F1 cars today are more reliable than they were in earlier periods. It should also be noted that itappears that the better financed teams also have slightly more reliable cars.

Note also that both Clark and Senna, but especially Clark, were killed in accidents (why, Jimmy why?) when they still appeared to have productive years ahead.

Edit! Dammit. The bloody thing changed format when I posted it! I hope that you can still read it all.
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Old 07-21-2002, 04:49 PM   #2
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Nigel Mansell is the greatest!
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Old 07-21-2002, 05:54 PM   #3
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Nigel is a great sportsman and I loved to watch him race, definetly one of my all time favorites. Fred, you won't be happy with what he had to say though.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nigel Mansell"The challenge for the 2003 title is probably all over already because of Ferrari's massive gap over the rest,” Mansell was quoted as saying. “Their domination has allowed them to start work early on next year's car.”
http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.h...20050807.shtml


-Dave Kearney
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Old 07-21-2002, 07:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny
Nigel Mansell is the greatest!
Fat Nigel, or skinny Nigel?

How's about this...

His second year in CART, he sucked up the joint (I want to say he finished fifth... after the 3 Penskes and Michael, but I could be wrong on that). Yet, he raced in 4 (I think) F1 races that year, and still finished top 10.

Is that any comment on the strength of each series (atleast in that year)?
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Old 07-21-2002, 08:40 PM   #5
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Originally posted by Oakos Automotive
Nigel is a great sportsman and I loved to watch him race, definetly one of my all time favorites. Fred, you won't be happy with what he had to say though.



http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.h...0807.shtml</a>


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Of course I'm not happy with what he said, but it's true.

Nigel is one of my all time favorites.
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Old 07-21-2002, 09:54 PM   #6
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I dont think you can really compare drivers of today from those of the past. Its like comparing Barry Bonds to Babe Ruth. Schumacher is by far the greatest from the last 10 years though, IMHO. Montoya and Kimi Raikkonen will be the next challengers.

Last edited by Brett@SoloRacer.com; 07-21-2002 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 07-21-2002, 10:17 PM   #7
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Sorry guys, but you can have all the raw data you want but there is only one driver to really made a difference:

AYRTON SENNA


Truly,

Davis
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Old 07-21-2002, 10:47 PM   #8
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Those statistics are largely meaningless. Car design, Mechanical Reliability, Technical Support, Team Tactics, and sometimes just plain dumb Luck all play at least as significant a role in achiving statistical results as driver skill.

Frankly I think drivers such as Gilles Villeneuve, and Ronnie Peterson (both of whom didn't achive very much compared to Prost, Schumacher, Clark, Fangio, or Senna et al) are the true greats IMHO. The lack of statistical results doesn't disqualify either of these gentlemen from being "great".

Prost, while he certainly is/was a very great driver, usually achived his successes more through car setup, and race strategy, and his abilities for concerving his car then from his great driving capabilities.

Watching a top driver parade around in the lead with the best car, whilst short-shifting, and doing everything possible to conserve brakes, tyres and fuel is not what I watch F1 for. Before we attempt to determine who the "greatest driver" is/was, I think we really need to define what qualities we value in a "great" driver.

EDIT: For what its worth, I think we saw more of what made Senna such a great driver in the 1993 season (driving to second place in the championship, in a seriously under-powerd McLaren-Ford) then in any other season.

Last edited by Jonathan; 07-21-2002 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 07-21-2002, 11:51 PM   #9
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Ronnie - great talent
Gilles - Mr. Ten Tenths

Unfortunately, their records just don't equal those of Clark and Senna and ultimately you have to start putting great races together in groups over several seasons, and neither Peterson nor Villeneuve did that.

Yes, luck, budget etc play a role, but in F1 the cream rises - the most talented (if they survive) are selected to drive the best equipment with the best engineers etc. Just look at the man who appears to be the successor to Schumacher. A few years ago Raikkonen was nowhere. He won a national championship, impressed those who mattered, got his break and took it.

As I'm English, I have a soft spot for the British drivers on the list, but Nigel Mansell is just not in the same league as Clark and Stewart, not to mention Hill (Graham, not Damon).

Jonathan, if the stats are meaningless (and over a short term I 'd agree with you that they are), then why even bother with the championship at all? After all, the championship is just a collection of stats. But when a driver, or a small group of drivers, display an ability to win on courses all over the world over a period of several years, driving different vehicles, in all types of weather, I have to believe that they are superior to their contemporaries who don't manage to win more than occasionally, if at all. I trust in the data that I presented above, because they represent the only objective way we have of presenting this argument. I will agree though that the subjective is very powerful here. In Britain you will find many an F1 fan (the older generation, to be sure) who will go to their graves believing that Clark was the greatest, and their argument is hard to counter on both a subjective and objective basis.

Remember, these data show us that most of drivers in F1, the cream of the crop, don't accomplish very much in their short careers. A decade from now, we will look back at F1 as the millenium turned and remember only a few names from the dozens who drove between say, 1998-2004. Schumacher, Hakkinen for sure, Raikkonen maybe, Panis, Yoong, Fishicella, Webber, McNish, Trulli etc I think not.

Gentle reader, off the top of your head, try to name the 5 greatest F1 drivers of each decade from the 50s forward - that's 25 drivers! Now name another 25. A few of you will be able to provide a reasonable attempt at the first 25, very few the second 25. That's just 50 names over a 50 year period - how soon are names confined to the record books - and that's if they won.
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Old 07-22-2002, 12:54 AM   #10
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with out going into long winded explanation, the answer is 3 words. SENNA SENNA SENNA!!!!!!. just think about it still manual gaer boxes and insane turbo era. just my opinion
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Old 07-22-2002, 01:11 AM   #11
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Gille as great but his run was way to short (how about this he started racing snowmobiles), there are many great drivers that rarely get mentioned most notably no one has mentioned Jochen rindt, or wolfgang von tripps, alberto ascari, Bernd rosemeyer. Yet I cannot get over the fact that MS shaped ferrari in his image which is something that Senna couldn't even do, yeah Senna drove in the turbo era but he also raced in the most technica era with active suspensions and the like, he was great but not the greatest by just a hair.
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:12 AM   #12
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Nigel Mansell was and still is my hero.

No one drives as emotional as him these days.

my all time favorite race was 1992 Monaco.
It's been 10 years already... time flys.

Last edited by go go go; 07-22-2002 at 02:20 AM.
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:59 AM   #13
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My favorite driver had always been Senna, but I'll have to give the nod to Juan Fangio for the greatest driver. Sure Schumacher equaled his record but when you compare the cars they drove to eachother that doesnt mean much. The fact that JM Fangio won 5 world titles with the cars he had makes him a much better driver. IMO all these new fangled cars with "aero-dynamics" and "traction control" don't require half the skill an old 60's era F1 car would , but I've never actually driven one I could be wrong.
-Jeff
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Old 07-22-2002, 05:06 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by HoRo1
Jonathan, if the stats are meaningless (and over a short term I 'd agree with you that they are), then why even bother with the championship at all ?
Ho Ro 1 -
Fair enough question.
The WDC brings great prestige, both upon the manufacturer, and upon the driver. A WDC means far more to most maufactures (and sponsours) then the constructors championship, that nobody seems to be able to remember. The Statistics are by no means meaningless. However using these figures to attempt to assess who the greatest drivers were/are is totally bogus, IMO.

The greatest drivers don't always get the best cars. A driver gets his (or sometimes her) opportunity with a manufacture based on circumstances (luck), how good an agent they have, how much a given sponsour favours one driver over another as much as they do based on their driving abilities.

How well a driver performs in a given season is typically much less based on driving ability, then it is on the overall package that the constructor and engine supplier are able to deliver.

Nowadays many experts will tell you that results are largely more the result of the package then just the driver. The phase 80% car 20 % driver is a little extreme, but is typically excepted as being accurate. Only a very few drivers have been able to deliver exceptional performance when saddled with a less then steller car. (Tom Pryce, Ronnie, Gilles, Ayrton, Jean Alesi, and M. Schumacher are a few that come to mind).

While there is truth that over time that "cream rises to the top" and the best drivers do indeed tend to be sought after be the best teams, history has shown that for various reasons, this doesn't always happen.

The controversy as to why a great driver fails to secure a WDC is often times far more exciting then the actual WDC...

Neslon Piquet's 3 WDC's should assure most people who beleive in statistics that he was a very great and talented driver, yet (while Nelson was a good driver) few would put him in the same category as Ayrton, Ronnie, or Gilles.

My aurgument, is not that the WDC is meaningless (it isn't), but is that the qualities an F1 fan (such as myself) values most (all out driving abilities) are not always fairly reflected in the F1 statistics.
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Old 07-22-2002, 12:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff 2.5RS
My favorite driver had always been Senna, but I'll have to give the nod to Juan Fangio for the greatest driver. Sure Schumacher equaled his record but when you compare the cars they drove to eachother that doesnt mean much. The fact that JM Fangio won 5 world titles with the cars he had makes him a much better driver. IMO all these new fangled cars with "aero-dynamics" and "traction control" don't require half the skill an old 60's era F1 car would , but I've never actually driven one I could be wrong.
-Jeff
Niki Lauda scoffed at modern F1 cars, saying "a monkey could drive one." He then hopped into De La Rosa's car, and promptly made like a dervish. And his lap times were SLOW. Note that you've heard none of that scoffing about "the good old days" from Lauda since then. Driving a modern F1 car at the limit is probably just as difficult as driving an old-school F1 car at the limit, because with the driver aids, the limits have gotten so much higher, so everything stays in perspective, ability-wise. Look at Alex Yoong compared to Mark Webber. That Minardi is a dog, but Webber drives the heck out of it, because he has talent. Yoong, conversely, has money, and lots of it.

Now, I would wager that in moments of honesty, Schumacher would say that the (relatively) stripped-down Benetton cars were the most fun for him to drive. He didn't have the best car, and still won. That's how you know the good 'uns.

Kevin
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by gtguy
Niki Lauda scoffed at modern F1 cars, saying "a monkey could drive one." He then hopped into De La Rosa's car, and promptly made like a dervish. And his lap times were SLOW.
gtguy -
Niki drove the Jaguar, I think roughly 3 laps. He spun at least 2 times. He is/was age 53 when he drove it. He hadn't driven in more then 15 years. Conventional wisdom says that by the time a moderen era F1 driver reaches age 38-39 he is done. Fangio was over 40 when he began his F1 carear. Clearly the modern F1 car puts a premium on a drivers reflexes, and conversely, clearly a moderen F1 car is easy to learn to master, IF you have perfect eye-sight and very quick reflexes (witness Kimi and Jenson's quick assimilation to the sport). Yes Niki no longer claims that a monkey can drive one, on the other hand, I think it takes less training to learn to master a moderen F1 car, then it did 15+ years ago. These car behave increasingly just like go-karts.
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Old 07-22-2002, 02:59 PM   #17
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Note that you've heard none of that scoffing about "the good old days" from Lauda since then. Driving a modern F1 car at the limit is probably just as difficult as driving an old-school F1 car at the limit, because with the driver aids, the limits have gotten so much higher, so everything stays in perspective, ability-wise.
I see your point and it's well taken but even Schumacher has admited that he can't compare his success to JM Fangios, saying that the cars they drive are so different it doesn't matter. He gives the nod to Fangio as the better driver again saying that driving a car in his (fangios) era was probably much harder than driving a modern F1 car. Even Kimi Raikonnen said they basically handle just like go-karts now. 60's era F1 driving was amost more akin to rallying than to modern F1 considering how much they slid around. A good example would be Jim Clark, who practically invented trail-braking, he was sliding through almost every corner back in the 60's, and he was fast, not somthing you could do in a modern F1 car.
-Jeff
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Old 07-22-2002, 04:27 PM   #18
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True, Jeff and Jonathan, but let's not forget that to slide a modern F1 car is slow, although (Montoya) it looks spectacular.

Indeed, Lauda was 53 when he drove the Jag, etc, but I still think that his "monkey" comments are funny in light of what happened during that drive, while illustrating the points that modern F1 cars are more difficult to drive than we/he think. I had a hard time at first in a Barber Dodge car. I can't imagine what driving an F1 car must be like.

I think that it's just as much a question of talent, which is why you have some drivers who "have it," like Kimi, and some who are always "this year..." kind of drivers, like Irvine or Frentzen, who presumably by now have enough seat time to have mastered the intricacies of the modern F1 car.

Schumacher is saying Fangio is greater in part because he might believe it, but also because that's also because that's what he's supposed to say. What else is he going to say? "Heck yeah, I'm better than Fangio! What are you, high?" Boy, that would crack up a press conference, eh?

There is certainly no coincidence that good karting drivers have an opportunity, if all else goes well, to become good Formula drivers. But driving a kart really fast is HARD. Put upwards of 700 horsepower at the back wheels of that kart, and stack back, baby!

I would love to see drivers of today in F1 cars of yore. Who was it (Villeneuve I think) who drove an old F1 car and said it was fun, but scary a bit. I still think that good drivers are good drivers, and if you put them in a lawn mower, they'd be fast. Unfortunately, the demands of motorsport today demand an increased degree of focus and speculation that precludes cross-pollination between sports. Surtees was preternaturally talented, to be sure, but the way that guys train and focus today, anyone (for example) not running a GP bike full time would get their butt handed to them.

Competition and technology does indeed improve the breed, and my point was not at all to assert that any one driver is the greatest. That's so tied up in things other than statistics, because statistics give empirical data alone. I simply wished to make a point that hadn't been made, which was that modern F1 cars are difficult to drive, and that the rumored ease of driving one shouldn't be (IMHO) used to diminish the accomplishments of M. Schumacher.

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Old 07-22-2002, 06:02 PM   #19
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gtguy-Another good point I should have mentioned that I do think that modern F1 cars are challenging to drive, I just think that the older F1 cars would be a bit harder to drive. A modern F1 car might be harder on the driver though, pulling extreme g's for 2 hours (or more) at a time would have it's toll on a driver I'm sure, but I still think older F1 cars were harder to drive and I'm stubborn and hard-headed so you'll never convince me:monkey:
-Jeff
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Old 07-22-2002, 06:12 PM   #20
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Old 07-22-2002, 07:34 PM   #21
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IMO all these new fangled cars with "aero-dynamics" and "traction control" don't require half the skill an old 60's era F1 car would , but I've never actually driven one I could be wrong.
-Jeff [/b]
I disagree. Cars back then didnt have all the gadgetry, but they also didnt go 200+ mph and have the grip that modern F1 cars have. Driving a modern day F1 car has got to be a handful!!!
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Old 07-22-2002, 07:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan
gtguy -
Niki drove the Jaguar, I think roughly 3 laps. He spun at least 2 times. He is/was age 53 when he drove it. He hadn't driven in more then 15 years. Conventional wisdom says that by the time a moderen era F1 driver reaches age 38-39 he is done. Fangio was over 40 when he began his F1 carear. Clearly the modern F1 car puts a premium on a drivers reflexes, and conversely, clearly a moderen F1 car is easy to learn to master, IF you have perfect eye-sight and very quick reflexes (witness Kimi and Jenson's quick assimilation to the sport). Yes Niki no longer claims that a monkey can drive one, on the other hand, I think it takes less training to learn to master a moderen F1 car, then it did 15+ years ago. These car behave increasingly just like go-karts.
Well, Fangio's age is a chicken or egg arguement, one can say that a geezer winning 5 world titles after age 40 means that the cars were easier to drive or as I prefer to believe, that he was supremely talented. After all, he was still beating the best of his era, and that includes Sterling Moss, who would be deserving of a place on this list if he'd been more calculating about signing with those teams who would provide him with the best car.

Drivers in the 50's were probably as good as today's in terms of talent, but they didn't train as seriously as the Schumachers of today and often they didn't live long enough to make their mark, given the primitive safety standards of both the cars and the tracks. They also drove in sports car races, so spread themselves thinner vs. today's drivers who participate in F1 only and can concentrate fully on it. Let's give those old drivers their due, driving high-powered beasts with poor brakes on skinny tires, where an off-track excursion meant playing for a lot higher stakes than getting stuck in the kitty litter.
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Old 07-22-2002, 10:42 PM   #23
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Default Michael's Thoughts on Comparisons to Fangio

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Alan Baldwin writing in AtlasF1.com
Schumacher, who drove a 1950s Ferrari in a demonstration at Silverstone last season, has always said that the two eras cannot be compared and has expressed his awe at the conditions and dangers Fangio had to deal with.

"I feel ... that what Fangio has done in his times is not comparable to what we do," he said on Sunday, reflecting briefly on the days when drivers raced without seatbelts or flameproof overalls.

Where oil and dirt would have streaked Fangio's face, protected by little more than goggles and a light helmet, Schumacher had champagne and sweat after his day's exertions at Magny-Cours.

"I think the effort he had to put in at the time was probably quite a lot more, just being a driver, than these days where you have so many people around you, where you have a lot more teamwork than you had in the past," he said.
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Old 07-23-2002, 02:49 AM   #24
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