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Old 05-05-2011, 03:08 PM   #1
Forged Performance
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Default Forged Performance: Black GT3 Pre-Track Prep/Upgrades

Wanted to share some photos of a Customers car we are doing a pre-track inspection on today. We are giving the car a complete check-up to insure it is ready for a track dayy event this weekend in Nashville. We decided to change to a higher spring rate for testing purposes as well adding new 10mm lower control arm shims to dial in added negative camber. It will also receive a fresh set of tires and have all drivetrain fluids changed. Once it is quality controlled checked twice it will go back into the enclosed trailer for it's trip to Nashville Super Speedway.

















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Last edited by Forged Performance; 05-07-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 05-05-2011, 03:28 PM   #2
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Sexy! You guys are awesome
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Old 05-05-2011, 05:10 PM   #3
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Sexy! You guys are awesome
I agree! LOL Thank you
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Old 05-05-2011, 10:18 PM   #4
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road race? more like track day I would assume. Nice car though
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Old 05-06-2011, 09:34 AM   #5
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Did you fix the defective LSD?
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:10 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by misterwaterfallin View Post
road race? more like track day I would assume. Nice car though
Some people assume "track day" means at the drag strip lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Did you fix the defective LSD?
The OEM LSD has been replaced with an OS Giken
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Old 05-06-2011, 10:20 AM   #7
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Why no console delete? Makes heel/toe a lot easier. PCCB swapped to iron rotors?

The rest looks great!
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:46 AM   #8
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Nice. Could you tell me more about that exhaust?

Stock 996 GT3 bumper, just with center cut out?

Weight savings from stock exhaust?

make of exhaust?

did you keep the stock headers?

did you need to upgrade the ECU? would be nice to not touch ECU and change back in forth from stock to race exhaust do to sound limits at some tracks and smog time.

anything else you could ad.

Thanks for your time,

Joe
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Forged Performance View Post
The OEM LSD has been replaced with an OS Giken
What a waste of time and money. That car's a 996 GT3 and has the 40/65 ramps in the factory LSD. It's the same thing as used in a 996 Cup, but with crappy brass clutches. All that car needed to be motorsports ready would have been a new set of LSD clutches in the OEM unit. No new ring gear backlash and bearing preload settings. Just a simple R&R of the stock LSD unit. Would have cost the customer about 1/3 of the cost of the new Giken and installation of it.
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Old 05-07-2011, 08:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
What a waste of time and money. That car's a 996 GT3 and has the 40/65 ramps in the factory LSD. It's the same thing as used in a 996 Cup, but with crappy brass clutches. All that car needed to be motorsports ready would have been a new set of LSD clutches in the OEM unit. No new ring gear backlash and bearing preload settings. Just a simple R&R of the stock LSD unit. Would have cost the customer about 1/3 of the cost of the new Giken and installation of it.
That's not the case in terms of costs or the mechanical operation of the new diff. The OSG unit is a 100% locker, and very different from using something like the Guard units or replacement clutches and rebuilt OEM stuff. This is a track day car that is in transition to full race car. Just because something is on a cup car doesn't mean is the best solution.
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Old 05-07-2011, 08:08 PM   #11
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Just because something is on a cup car doesn't mean is the best solution.
This!
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Old 05-08-2011, 05:03 PM   #12
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Yeeeeaaaahhh!
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Old 05-08-2011, 07:23 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Forged Performance View Post
That's not the case in terms of costs or the mechanical operation of the new diff. The OSG unit is a 100% locker, and very different from using something like the Guard units or replacement clutches and rebuilt OEM stuff. This is a track day car that is in transition to full race car. Just because something is on a cup car doesn't mean is the best solution.
You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm just saying that there's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. And there's a lot of people who agree with me:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...sd-buster.html

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/p...rex/index.html

As for the comment about the Giken offering 100% locking, that's really just part of their marketing campaign that they've been pitching. It's takes advantage of the general public's ignorance about the fact that when a clutch type LSD locks, it is locked. As in 100%. It ties the two wheels together and moves them in unison until the wheel that was slipping regains traction. That statement is something that can be said about any properly fucntioning clutch type LSD. It's not something unique to the Giken.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I will tell people that I am the owner of Guard Transmission. The Guard LSD you snubbed your nose at is my product. I live, eat, sleep and drink Porsche gears and LSDs on a daily basis. It's all that I do. I'm not trying to sell or market anything here, but do feel that it's only fair to readers to know the basis of my comments and my level of experience and expertise on this matter. To claim the Giken is motorsport worthy, in the same sentence as suggesting that my product is not, when my product is in no less than a dozen Grand Am Porsches running this season does make me chuckle a little bit. That's not even beginning to consider the number of my units that are in ALMS, SCCA World Challenge, NASA, and PCA Club racing vehicles. It may have been an intentional or an accidental jab at the brand, but it's definitely a comment that isn't really grounded in reality.

Last edited by Matt Monson; 05-08-2011 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:49 PM   #14
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Nasioc, is Porsche spelled backwards.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:46 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by loworbitSI View Post
Why no console delete? Makes heel/toe a lot easier. PCCB swapped to iron rotors?!
Very common to ditch PCCB. They're very pricey for parts that have a short track life...so track guys sell them for $$ to some guy who'll put them on his sunday street car for 'bling'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
You're welcome to your opinion, but I'm just saying that there's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater. And there's a lot of people who agree with me:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...sd-buster.html

http://www.europeancarweb.com/tech/p...rex/index.html

As for the comment about the Giken offering 100% locking, that's really just part of their marketing campaign that they've been pitching. It's takes advantage of the general public's ignorance about the fact that when a clutch type LSD locks, it is locked. As in 100%. It ties the two wheels together and moves them in unison until the wheel that was slipping regains traction. That statement is something that can be said about any properly fucntioning clutch type LSD. It's not something unique to the Giken.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I will tell people that I am the owner of Guard Transmission. The Guard LSD you snubbed your nose at is my product. I live, eat, sleep and drink Porsche gears and LSDs on a daily basis. It's all that I do. I'm not trying to sell or market anything here, but do feel that it's only fair to readers to know the basis of my comments and my level of experience and expertise on this matter. To claim the Giken is motorsport worthy, in the same sentence as suggesting that my product is not, when my product is in no less than a dozen Grand Am Porsches running this season does make me chuckle a little bit. That's not even beginning to consider the number of my units that are in ALMS, SCCA World Challenge, NASA, and PCA Club racing vehicles. It may have been an intentional or an accidental jab at the brand, but it's definitely a comment that isn't really grounded in reality.
I have first hand experience shaking down two Grand Am Carreras that picked up Gaurd Trans. The same day we had data from a customer who had a cup car as well. We (RPM) were happy with the diffs. Then the owner moved the shop, chased off the lead tech and killed the team

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Nasioc, is Porsche spelled backwards.
Swoon...I knew I should have bought that 996 GT3
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:10 AM   #16
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I met Matt at a tech session and he diagnosed my trans problem and recomended a repair procedure all from my description as my WRX was home broken. He knows his stuff and the repairs did not use any parts or service that he sells. Just really good free advice.
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Old 05-09-2011, 11:21 AM   #17
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Hello,
I got up this morning and re-read this thread and feel like I should offer a bit of clarification and an apology to Forged for taking their thread in a negative direction. This is what I mean.

When I asked if they had fixed the defective LSD it was a genuine question. I wanted to make sure it was something that they were aware of. You would be amazed how many people in the industry, even Porsche experts, are not aware of the issues with the stock GT3 LSD. And Porsche adamantly denies that there's any problem. By way of example, just last Friday I got a call from one of my regular customers. This is a guy very active in the PCA for the last 20 years and someone who was affiliated with a 2 car Grand Am Koni Carrera team in 2007. He knows his stuff.

He had recently been at a PCA race/DE event and a customer had asked him to drive his 996 GT3. The car has about 25k total miles on it and this was the first time it had ever been on track. The owner was complaining about some things and asked my customer to drive it and give him feedback. Long story short, my customer calls up and says it feels to him like the LSD is shot but he just can't believe that it's gone at that kind of mileage and usage. I showed him the Rennlist thread and he got it. This is a Porsche expert who works on Porsche cars every day, and he didn't know that the GT3 LSD has issues. So, my first question was to make sure Forged knew to address that in their build. I was trying to be helpful.

The point where I screwed up was where I used the word "waste". When I said it was a waste of time and money, I put a negative spin on the conversation and for that I apologize. I want to start off by saying that I don't have anything bad at all to say about the Giken LSD. I have customers who use and sell them. I've installed and set up a couple of them myself. I in no way meant to imply that the Giken is a bad or inferior LSD product.

Here's my point with math, and what I really just wanted to point out.

If you take out the stock GT3 LSD and rebuild this is what it will cost you:

R&R of the LSD from car: 4 hours x $100 =400
Clutch Kit to rebuild LSD: $900-1200 (depending on brand and configuration)
Labor to rebuilt the LSD: 1.5hours x $100 =$150
Total cost to customer: $1500-1750, exclusive of seals and fluids.

Here's what a new LSD is going to run you:
R&R of the gearbox from the car: 6 hours x $100= $600
LSD labor installation done properly: 6 hours x $100= $600
Cost of LSD: $2000-4000 (depending on brand and model)
Total cost to custoer: $3200-$5200

That's my underlying point here. This is in no way a Giken versus Guard point. It's more than twice the labor to install a new LSD and resetting the ring gear backlash and bearing preload. By rebuilding on the factory case, which is perfectly adequate basis for a motorsport build, the customer can save thousands. Both the Giken and the OEM GT3 use a forged casting on their cases. There's no strength advantage there. And I do stand by my comment that if it's good enough for a 996 GT3 Cup Car, it's good enough for a GT3 street car being converted to a racecar.

As for the rest of it, I think it would be unfair to Forged to take this down the path of a Giken versus Guard debate. They've chosen their LSD as an educated decision and gone with the product that they think is the best for their needs. I'm not going to argue that with them, and I should have actually been a little more respectful of that choice earlier on in the thread and never been so negative when I said their choice was a "waste". Sorry about that guys. Hopefully this thread can go back to focusing on what appears to be a pretty cool build and Forged can continue to share with NASIOC users their plans for this car in the future, both with respect to mods and how they plan to race it.
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Old 05-09-2011, 03:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Matt Monson View Post
Hello,
I got up this morning and re-read this thread and feel like I should offer a bit of clarification and an apology to Forged for taking their thread in a negative direction. This is what I mean.
Its truly rare that someone steps up like this and admits when they are wrong. Its refreshing to see especially in business.

Matt

P.S. The GT3 looks great guys, keep up the good work.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:36 PM   #19
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It doesnt sound to me so much of an admission of "wrongness" as an explaination and elaboration of frustration of a vendor/shop owner over a manufacturer (Porsche) denying a design defect in a product as expensive and performance oriented as a 996 GT3 - mixed in with an equal amount of frustration over an potentially un-necissary expensive repair solution. As a business when you are trying to service customers the goal is always to provide the best service/least un-necissarily expensive service in order to earn their repeat business. Consecutive repeat sadisfied customers will always earn more $$$ for a business than a singular big money job.


Very pretty GT3 build BTW. Besides suspension tuning; What sort of engine management tuning was part of this build? Presumably if its being converted to full race then some level of tuning was done as part of the other gofast modifications?
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopSpeed View Post
Its truly rare that someone steps up like this and admits when they are wrong. Its refreshing to see especially in business.

Matt

P.S. The GT3 looks great guys, keep up the good work.
I have followed this thread and from what I have read, there is no right or wrong in regards to Matt's opinion. It is just his opinion from his experiences and expertise that he disagree on.

I do not see a point where you guys think that Matt is wrong on this.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:52 PM   #21
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It doesnt sound to me so much of an admission of "wrongness" as an explaination and elaboration of frustration of a vendor/shop owner over a manufacturer (Porsche) denying a design defect in a product as expensive and performance oriented as a 996 GT3 - mixed in with an equal amount of frustration over an potentially un-necissary expensive repair solution. As a business when you are trying to service customers the goal is always to provide the best service/least un-necissarily expensive service in order to earn their repeat business. Consecutive repeat sadisfied customers will always earn more $$$ for a business than a singular big money job.
Tommy,
Just one point of clarity. I am actually a manufacturer and not a shop owner. I compete directly with Giken and Porsche and Holinger at the wholesale level. When I was speaking of my customer in the story above, my customer is the owner of a high end Porsche repair facility.

From a purely technical standpoint I could make more money if I just told people they needed to pitch the factory GT3 LSD and sold them one of my $3000 units instead. And the retail shops could make more money on the labor of the install of our new LSD as well. But as a business owner, I decided instead to make a solution to the problem and make people aware that it was available to them. We've been offering rebuild and service components for Porsche factory LSDs for more than a decade now. However, it wasn't until the GT3 line of cars that Porsche decided to start using those crummy inferior brass friction discs. And now that more and more of them are becoming track toys, people are quickly finding out that Porsche equipped them with something that is inadequate for use at the track. And under those circumstances I totally agree with your attitude about providing the most effective least expensive option that will solve the problem for the consumer. Some people opt to completely replace the LSD, as Forged has, and as a number of my race customers have. But having other options is something people appreciate. I never asked for that article to be written by European Car magazine. They approached me and told me that they had heard about what we were doing with the Porsche factory LSD and that they wanted to include it in their build. They never asked for free parts, but just wanted my permission to publish the article and put it out there. Needless to say I was extremely flattered.
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:56 PM   #22
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I do not see a point where you guys think that Matt is wrong on this.
Where I was wrong was to be so judgemental of Forged's decision to replace the factory LSD instead of rebuilding it. My use of the word "waste" is totally a loaded word. If read without knowing me and how I think and carry myself professionally, that post is pretty condescending. That's what was wrong of me.
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Old 05-10-2011, 04:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Very common to ditch PCCB. They're very pricey for parts that have a short track life...so track guys sell them for $$ to some guy who'll put them on his sunday street car for 'bling'.
No. I knew that. I saw the yellow calipers and was asking IF they were swapped because of their short track life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Swoon...I knew I should have bought that 996 GT3
I got one.

Good info on the LSDs of GT3s on a Subaru Forum.

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