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Old 05-25-2011, 01:03 AM   #1
Moore Performance
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Event: charity dyno event
Location: J&S Dyno
Ambient Temp: 79 max degrees
Elevation: 1223 ft
Weather: sunny for a change!

Car: 2002 wrx
Tuner: Nate from TPG Tuning
Dyno Info: Mustang dyno
Peak HP at RPM: 388
Peak Torque at RPM: 436
Baseline hp/tq for a stock sti on same dyno: 210-220whp
Target Boost: 24PSI
Target AFR: 11.8
Fuel: little bit of 93 but mostly e85

Engine/Power Modifications:


Moore Performance Built 2.5 liter Motor
Torque plate - bored and honed block
Manley 9.8:1 Pistons/rings
Manley H beam Rods
ACL bearings
Stock sti crank

2.0 liter non-avcs heads
Stock Head gaskets
Stock 2.0 liter cams
5 angle valve job
Bore matched combustion chamber (by hand)
Manley prototype valve spring
ARP Head Studs

Moore Performance spec, Bell Intercoolers TMIC assembly
DW300 Pump
FIC 1680cc injectors
AEM 3.5 bar map/AIT sensors
AEM EMS
***********Moore Performance Twin Scroll rotated turbo kit w/ Evo 6.5 RS TME turbo
2 - 38mm Tial MVS wastegates
Hallman Pro mbc


Well.....This car came a long way in one week. We had been working on our second gen header design that works with many turbo options including the large selection of reverse rotation Mitsubishi Evo turbos, and we decided to test our first prototype on my personal car. The car had a new motor installed, broken in (for 415 miles), road tuned, the chassis and a alignment setup, dyno tuned and raced all in one week. Every step of the way we ran into some quirk that required more time and effort than we expected, but that for sure is the nature of the beast.

The turbo setup we chose for my autox car uses our second gen twin scroll "world header" design with the absolute smallest Evo 6.5 RS TME turbo. This turbo is an older design that was standard on the Mitsu 6.5 Tommi Makinen edition evo and we paired that turbo with twin 38mm Tial MVS wastegates for excellent boost control. This turbo also has a downsized 9cm turbine housing that works great on 2.0 liter cars, but we feel chokes the 2.5 liter motor a bit.

With only 8 degrees of timing at peak tq and 15 degrees up top, rich 11.8:1 AFR's and mild boost pressure, the motor isn't really being pushed hard at all. We even started the pulls a little bit late and shut the motor down early to take it easy on the new assembly. With more miles, and a much more aggressive tune this turbo setup should produce well over 400whp and 450+wtq on a mustang dyno.

Nate from TPG Tuning did a great job of setting up the AEM EMS from scratch and only 45 minutes on the road and two dyno pulls the car performed very well. With more miles and more time for tuning, this car should make even bigger numbers but it runs and drives excellent thanks to Nate!

Well, here's the graph and a quick vid someone uploaded of a third gear pull......






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Last edited by Moore Performance; 05-25-2011 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:27 AM   #2
Big_DeWeY
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How much is this particular header/uppipe/turbo setup?
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:32 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_DeWeY View Post
How much is this particular header/uppipe/turbo setup?
This.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:38 AM   #4
Moore Performance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fellstar

This.
The original kits were set to retail at $3950.00 for the smallest turbo including everything needed for install (turbo, header, uppipe, downpipe, gaskets, oil feed, oil drain, filter, etc, etc). Were hoping to offer the same if not better pricing on this new, traditionally rotated, Evo turbo kit. We need to crunch more numbers, but we'll have more pricing info very soon. Were also going to do a group buy as soon as we determine price to help lower the cost of the kit even more.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:44 AM   #5
Moore Performance
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The other thing I forgot to mention was the fact that I had a terrible, inefficient breather/catch can setup on the car during these runs and we're already changing to a more realistic and properly working setup which should promote better ring seal and less crankcase pressure. We plan to redyno the car with an Evo 9 turbo in the near future after more miles are put on the motor.

Also, here's some info about the turbo that's on my car......

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...e=Lancer-Turbo
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:49 AM   #6
Phatron
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did you really run a fresh built motor on the dyno with no air filter on?

u consider 11.8 rich? and yes i know its e85. What do you normally run e85 at? And do you have an egt gauge?

The timing does sound low by normal subaru standards....but most people arent running 9.8:1 compression either.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:05 AM   #7
sumfoo1
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so is this a 2.0 or a 2.5 hybrid?
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:14 AM   #8
juanmedina
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Wow I am impress for a 2.0 litter. Please turn it up soon, can you guys post a virtual dyno or Airboy plot? How loud are the manley pistons?

Love it, congrats
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumfoo1 View Post
so is this a 2.0 or a 2.5 hybrid?
It is a 2.5 Hybrid
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FXTSPORTS08 View Post
It is a 2.5 Hybrid
So this is a 2.5L with a TS turbo. Seems kind of laggy. And less than 400whp on E85? What's the flow rating on this turbo?
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:28 AM   #11
sumfoo1
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ok, being that this is a high compression 2.5, these numbers sound almost exactly the same as a hta68 on an avcs 2.5 on e85.

I don't know exactly how much avcs helps spool.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:39 AM   #12
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
So this is a 2.5L with a TS turbo. Seems kind of laggy. And less than 400whp on E85? What's the flow rating on this turbo?
its a 16g.....but a big one

theres a comp map on FP's site if you wanna try and figure out what units its in and convert it....

but i believe its ~40-42 lbm

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...e=Lancer-Turbo

and heres the comp map....625 cfm = 42-44 lbm...so i was right

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Old 05-25-2011, 09:46 AM   #13
SlowboyNRS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
did you really run a fresh built motor on the dyno with no air filter on?

u consider 11.8 rich? and yes i know its e85. What do you normally run e85 at? And do you have an egt gauge?

The timing does sound low by normal subaru standards....but most people arent running 9.8:1 compression either.
As Ryan mentioned, we didn't have the large filter setup completed so we removed the filter for the dyno runs only as it was sucking the small filter shut. For the 3 pulls we made it was fine, I'd never run a car open filter on the street but we use a filterless ram air setup on the drag cars all the time with no issues.

Rich is a relative term. 11.8:1 on gas scale is slightly richer than most E85 setups I tune. Depending on the efficiency of the setup some E85 motors will make best power as lean as 12.5-12.6:1. In my opinion EGTs are pointless unless you have one on EACH runner, or if its a big diesel pickup truck. In this case we didn't have the 4 channel EGT setup ready, so no egts. I think a back pressure sensor is much more important, and it will have one shortly!

The timing map is about 4* less than what I usually run on E85 and this compression. However, since this is a race car and has fairly low miles on the motor we kept it conservative.

This is a really SMALL turbo, especially for a 2.5l car. As mentioned the TME is one of the smallest EVO frame turbos out there.

Can't wait to get the Green or Red on this bad boy and turn it up!

Great job with the car Ryan!

Nate
TPG
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:51 AM   #14
juanmedina
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So is not a 2.0L.......
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:54 AM   #15
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowboyNRS View Post
In my opinion EGTs are pointless unless you have one on EACH runner,
how is it pointless? it gives you a direct insight into what the other 3 cylinders are doing.

having 1 is definately better than none and in no way pointless....you cant really sit there and tell me that if the car had 1 single EGT gauge and it was reading 2000* that you would simply ignore it because the car only had 1?

you can probably count the number of subies running 4 egt's on 1 hand.
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:57 AM   #16
sumfoo1
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what would you get to monitor 4 egts?
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:04 AM   #17
Phatron
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:08 AM   #18
SlowboyNRS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
how is it pointless? it gives you a direct insight into what the other 3 cylinders are doing.

having 1 is definately better than none and in no way pointless....you cant really sit there and tell me that if the car had 1 single EGT gauge and it was reading 2000* that you would simply ignore it because the car only had 1?

you can probably count the number of subies running 4 egt's on 1 hand.
I only monitor EGTs on a car with one in each runner to use for cylinder balancing.

EGTs aren't directly related to combustion chamber temperatures, retard the timing and the EGTs go up, advance the timing and the EGTs go down.

Yes you COULD use it as a sort of "warning light", but if the EGTs went to 2000* its either WAY to lean or running 0 ignition timing, all of which I can already monitor.

The car made great safe power, again nice job with the car Ryan, can't wait to turn it up!

Nate
TPG
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:20 AM   #19
SlowboyNRS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sumfoo1 View Post
what would you get to monitor 4 egts?
AEM also makes a nice 4 channel EGT setup that can be datalogged with or without their EMS and you can pick it up for well under $300.

Nate
TPG
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:32 AM   #20
Phatron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowboyNRS View Post
EGTs aren't directly related to combustion chamber temperatures,
So if you combust gas in a cylinder...and then open a valve and measure the temp of the resultant gases it has no relationship to the combustion that just occured?

interesting.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:37 AM   #21
SlowboyNRS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
So if you combust gas in a cylinder...and then open a valve and measure the temp of the resultant gases it has no relationship to the combustion that just occured?

interesting.
Of course it does, WHEN it occured IE ignition advance.

I'm not telling you how to tune a car my man, you asked me how I do it, and clearly it works.

Nate
TPG
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:52 AM   #22
Phatron
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but u just said egt's arent directly related to combustion temps....but now they are.

im lost.

im not asking you how to tune my man. im asking about egt's.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:58 AM   #23
SlowboyNRS
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
but u just said egt's arent directly related to combustion temps....but now they are.

im lost.

im not asking you how to tune my man. im asking about egt's.
I said they aren't DIRECTLY related. Meaning that temperature inside the combustion chamber isan't the same as the exhaust gas temperature 4 inches away from the exhaust valve.

Measure both and you'll see what I mean.

Regardless, I already posted my theory on EGTs, lets keep this thread about Ryan's badass autox beast, not my tuning methodology! :-)

Nate
TPG
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:12 AM   #24
Phatron
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just because they're not the same doesnt mean they're not directly related

but yes...back to evo 16g's on subies
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:17 PM   #25
Moore Performance
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07

So this is a 2.5L with a TS turbo. Seems kind of laggy. And less than 400whp on E85? What's the flow rating on this turbo?
If the car performed the exact same way on the local Dynojet (which is the top of the line unit) it would read roughly 434whp and 488wtq. Over time from running multiple cars back to back on both dynos we've noticed roughly a reading of 12% higher on the dynojet. Obviously it's not exact, but it'll give you a rough idea of what it would have done if I ran it there.

Also, after talking with Nate and Curt Brown, both feel the car will spool up better and make more power everywhere with a large hotside and simply a larger turbo based off the Evo 9 platform. These turbos are uncharted territory for a Subaru, so were doing our best to test as many turbos as we can and provide more results.

Last edited by Moore Performance; 05-25-2011 at 12:24 PM.
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