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Old 03-14-2011, 02:50 PM   #1
D3F0
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Lightbulb Hho Injection

Hey so I have been working on HHO generators and I'm curious why nobody really tries experimenting with them more. They use the process of electrolysis to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen using electricity.
I just got started in building HHO generators. Below is my first real one it is called a Dry cell, distilled water and an electrolyte Potassium Hydroxide commonly found in most drain cleaner enters the cell trough the two tubes on the bottom. The two ones at the top are the exhaust which hydrogen and Oxygen flow out.



The cell is made up of these plates, 14.8v of electricity from your car flows through them and brakes up the conductive water into the gasses.



When HHO is produced I put the cap on the PVC reservoir and can direct it right into the intake.

Once the throttle opens up it takes in the HHO and Burns it with the gas, which results in a constant octane booster, Cleaner burning, More power, and more MPG. I know it works but I just want to get some people thinking about it. Tell me what you think this has been around for a long time but it has never taken off.
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Last edited by D3F0; 10-25-2013 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:22 PM   #2
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Closed my other threads and accounts about hho

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Old 03-14-2011, 06:32 PM   #3
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So, you're producing a gas mixture that contains both O2 and H2?

**waits for explosion**

Why do these threads show up on the internet every time gas prices go up? The physics don't work, they never did, and they never will - you can't get free energy.

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Old 03-14-2011, 06:55 PM   #4
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Thanks for the response , yes I am produce's a gas that is extremely explosive but engines absolutely love it. It reminds me of Alcohol/Methane injection systems that are talked about here a lot. They are also very flammable and explosive so its not a big deal.Its a on demand system so your not storing any large amounts of it or anything like that. Also you only produce what your engine needs so there is a very little risk of them popping under your hood. I am not talking about Free Energy crap the science is very complicated when its comes to HHO fuel Cells and they break a lot of laws. For example Nuclear power plants break the exact law you are thinking of. You cant get more out than you put in. Yet we do this all the time these days with Science. I know for a fact this stuff can be used for the good. It is being used all the time by people who like to try new things. In about a month I can make a thread showing how it benefits me and how it can work for all you. I'm not trying to start an argument behind the Science I'm just throwing it out for you guys to think about.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:41 PM   #5
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Dude, Ive got 1000 hours and probably 2K in the experiments, Yeah It sorta works, but most people are clueless as to what they are doing, and do not know how to take good measurements.
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Old 03-29-2011, 01:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D3F0 View Post
For example Nuclear power plants break the exact law you are thinking of. You cant get more out than you put in. Yet we do this all the time these days with Science.
Uh...

2nd law of thermodynamics basically states that you can't break even. Entropy. Science. Entropy. Science. Boom.

/thread.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:20 PM   #7
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Like I said before the laws you guys are thinking of don't apply to HHO, I am not trying to argue if you built one yourself you would get what I am talking about. That is the problem people seem to be negative and not want to try anything new.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:24 PM   #8
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I like your design!! I had one for a bit on my car but it was too messy and was a constant "experiment" going under the hood. I didn't like working with caustic chemicals either.. I was always worried about burning my skin. eventually my cell melted the fittings and sorta killed the project

would have been cool to have my car tuned on 93oct/methanol and HHO
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:27 PM   #9
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So, what exactly have you been measuring, and how?
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:39 AM   #10
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I had made an HHO cell before and I got 39 mpg(where I could have never gotten over 27 while driving 75mph for 100 miles) in my 2L WRX on the hwy once. Afterwards the casing couldn't maintain its seal and so I scrapped the project. Also, potassium and sodium hydroxide are not good for aluminum parts at all. One site started using white vinegar and distilled water as the electrolyte. I want to try this out asap. Then perhaps I'll get back into it again...
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:31 PM   #11
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Yea justooln2 its not easy to get right and can be a little expensive to build. But for every liter of engine 1/2 a liter of HHO is need. For about 200 dollars I can build a 3 liter per minute cell easily and that's with using all the right materials for example 316L Stainless steel. I am sure that it would be worth because it will pay off eventually haha and yes they can be messy if your design isn't to good but the one above did not leak or anything like that it was 75 dollars to build and if the right metal was used it would last for a very long time. Dry cells are very easy to maintain the caustic chemicals such as Potassium hydroxide are dangerous but if you use the right systems such as air scrubbers, flashbacks and a proper size bubbler none of them chemicals will make it to the intake no matter what. Some people even use White Vinegar in the the bubbler to help neutralize the KOH and put steel wool in the lines to stop splashing solution from getting anywhere it is not good to be. I fill up plastic bottles in the water and time to see how long it takes to film them up look at the video below if you are curious.


djerickd the fittings must of melted because your cell was drawing to much current from them to handle a lot of people use PWM and Power supply's to get a constant controlled voltage. Also you brand up a good point I want some of you tuning junkies to tune your car on HHO it would give you more power and efficiency if tuned right. HHO burns a lot quicker than gas so timing can be adjusted to make it work better. Also air to fuel ratios have to be changed and something has to be done about the sensors that are going to be off from the HHO entering the intake. Most people just adjust the sensors in the exhaust to trick the computer from screwing around.


mneste8718 That is good news! That is why I started this thread to get people thinking and sharing their results 39MPG is amazing message me if you have any questions Ive been experimenting a lot with HHO and once I have my car all fixed up I am putting a kit in it. Also did you use a wet cell design or a dry cell like above where the water and electrolyte flowed into it or did you make a bath type of design.
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:45 PM   #12
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essentially I had a wet cell but to increase efficiency and decrease current bleeding, I sealed off the edges, making it like a submerged dry cell. Worked pretty well. My only problem was the container would not seal very well at all when things got heated up.

I might get back into this if I can use white vinegar as an electrolyte. Going to be testing it out in the next week or two.

I tried using the same wall switch covers but they have a lot of current bleed and they are just too thin to work. For whatever reason, they heated up a lot more than my other setup.

On a different note, I'm thinking of using a cold fog generator, the ones that you submerge in water and they vibrate off the cold fog from the water. I'm actually thinking of making a gasoline vaporizer. This is a bit risky though lol, but I don't have sand in my va-j-j like some people, so I might try to engineer something regardless.
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:11 PM   #13
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Haha your definitely not a vag! If I were you id jump right into the Dry cell's they work a lot better than wet cells and don't take as much current because no currents leaks out and they are more safe I don't even worry about the caustic chemicals in mine anymore because Its easy to keep them contained. Also Dry cells do not get very hot if Neutral plates are used in between the + and - Plates. The cell I made above used 5 Neutral plates so that means the configuration was +NNNNN-. Each plate was only getting about 1.97 volts so they did not produce much heat. After a full hour of use the cell only got up to 110 degrees. Also you can use vinegar and other electrolytes but they do not produce nearly as much as 28% KOH and they will freeze in the cold. The plates I used are crap because they are 430 grade stainless steel which means they rust and corrode easily. Proper 316L stainless steel is needed for an HHO cell but I learned a lot from them for a total of around 35 dollars for all of them. The reason you had a lot of current bleed is because your design was a wet cell. The plates are not to thin what is more important about the cell spacing between the plates. The larger the gap the more voltage the cell will draw. 1/16 of an Inch is a good gap size. A gasoline vaporizer sounds interesting its a fact that if gasoline is brought to just under ignition temperature before it enters the cylinder combustion is more efficient so I know where you are going with that, just be careful.
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:39 PM   #14
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With the vaporizer, I'm more concerned with getting a more homogenous mixture into the cylinder. This should increase combustion efficiency. Some people have done it with some gains but they did it just using a bubbler and I don't think that is the best way to do it.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:48 PM   #15
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Yea there have been people who have used some of the heat off the exhaust to warm the fuel up.
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Old 04-01-2011, 09:10 AM   #16
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Yea there have been people who have used some of the heat off the exhaust to warm the fuel up.
That crosses the threshold for my risk taking capacity...
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Old 04-01-2011, 03:10 PM   #17
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Haha its been done before by this crazy man called Stanley Meyer


His work is incredible but it never took off and no one knows why people say its because his technology was so intense that the big company stopped him from finishing completely.
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Old 04-01-2011, 04:01 PM   #18
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^ Or the fact that it doesn't work as claimed...... Can you run a vehicle on oxyhydrogen (the proper name for what you get after performing electrolysis 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2) pardon my lack of subscripts? Yes, it is possible. Is it efficient in any way? No. You use more engery to split the water than you gain from burning it due as electroloysis is maybe 50% efficient at best (some say up to 70% or as low as 20%). Meyer's device claimed to be able to split water with less energy than the theoretical or measured minimums. Fun fact, he was successfully sued by a couple investors.

Last edited by van_dutch; 04-01-2011 at 04:18 PM. Reason: added for clarity
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Old 04-01-2011, 05:26 PM   #19
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van_dutch that is an excellent response I know its called Oyhydrogen technically but it has many names some even call it brown gas but how exactly does it take more to make than it than you gain if the power is coming off your alternator. Which doesn't end up using much more gas or anything like that its not that much of a load. The one I made above uses 13.8v at 9 or 10 amps your car can handle that. Meyer's work was crazy its so complicated its still being copied today. But that is an interesting fact I was just referring to his process of heating up the gas not the production of HHO his stuff seems a little too good somtimes.
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Old 04-01-2011, 06:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
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van_dutch that is an excellent response I know its called Oyhydrogen technically but it has many names some even call it brown gas but how exactly does it take more to make than it than you gain if the power is coming off your alternator. Which doesn't end up using much more gas or anything like that its not that much of a load. The one I made above uses 13.8v at 9 or 10 amps your car can handle that. Meyer's work was crazy its so complicated its still being copied today. But that is an interesting fact I was just referring to his process of heating up the gas not the production of HHO his stuff seems a little too good somtimes.
I didn't watch the video as I can't right now. I do apologize if I misunderstood you. To me, you started to venture into the free energy world (especially when you bring up Meyer) hence the reason for my post.

It takes a certain amount of enegery to split water. Unfortunately, the systems to do this aren't very efficient. Ideally, if you used say 10J of energy to split water, you would get back 10J of energy when you combust the products. In reality you end up spending more engery to get that 10J back. There is a loss due to efficiency. Think about the heat given off of the equipment used. That is energy lost. Your car is also very inefficient it gives off all sorts of extra energy - heat is particularly large and as such there has been work to use excess heat to drive electrical generators. Your alternator is also not 100% efficient. Same goes for your battery. There are losses all over the system. As such, there is a net loss for the process.

The EE in me finds your project interesting as a side project, but this is not the ultimate solution as it may appear. It is nothing new and it has not been adopted for reasonable reasons - cost, efficiency, regulation etc. There is not some company or group that is trying to dupe us and rip us off.

I'm not trying to rip on your design and stop you from experimenting, but just remember that it hasn't taken off for good reasons, not some conspiracy.
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Old 04-02-2011, 11:50 AM   #21
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Van_dutch, what if you consider the fact that when HHO gets burned in the combustion chamber, it propagates the flame front faster because it literally explodes rather than 'catches on fire', giving you a more efficient explosion in the chamber, and perhaps you can extract more power out of the gasoline as a result. I'm just theorizing here... I had a small amount accidentally explode lol, and let me tell you it behaves way different than gasoline. It propagates a shockwave that made me deaf for a few days lol. I haven't seen any gas being able to do that in that fashion. Perhaps you can think of it as nitrous.

But I do agree with you on the efficiency losses of course.
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Old 04-02-2011, 12:02 PM   #22
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yea exactly the way it explodes remind me of nitrous or one of those super spark plugs that give you way more of a spark that gives more complete combustion and more power and efficiency that's why i posted this thread in this section cause its similar to methane injection and nitrous. Also Ive seen it explode also my friend blew up my tank above in my kitchen and blew a hole though it while lighting the bubbles coming out of the exhaust tube he lit a bubble so close to the tube it ignited and went back up the tube and boom. Oxyhydrogen has soo much power in it that's whats amazing some people say its almost like 130 octane if use a ton of it. For example look at the picture below there is a red rubber cap on my bed that goes back about 2 cups of Oxyhydrogen it shoot through my roof because we did not even use any flashback systems or bubblers to keep the flame from going the wrong way.

Last edited by D3F0; 10-25-2013 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mneste8718 View Post
when HHO gets burned in the combustion chamber, it propagates the flame front faster because it literally explodes rather than 'catches on fire'
What's the difference between "explodes" and "catches on fire?" I ask because burning hydrogen and oxygen just sounds to me like fire (much like gasoline, actually), so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Hydrogen has a high energy-per-mass ratio, but when you're dealing with gaseous hydrogen, the energy-per-volume (per liter) gets very low:

Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/kg, and 34.2 MJ/L
Liquid hydrogen: 143 MJ/kg, 10.1 MJ/L
Gaseous hydrogen: 143 MJ/kg, 0.0179 MJ/L

You'd need a ****load of hydrogen gas to make a measurable difference in power or economy.

How many gallons of water does your system consume, per tank of gasoline?
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Old 04-02-2011, 08:59 PM   #24
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NSFW He says it explodes because if you were to take a single cylinder gasoline engine such as a dirt bike engine and monitor how the piston slams down from the ignition of gasoline and with HHO gasoline there would be a big difference. HHO is so explosive, its like a mini bomb instead of a sudden burn of gasoline that expands into gasses that push the piston down. Your statement above is not exactly accurate. Hydrogen supplies three times the energy per pound of gasoline but it has only one tenth the density when the hydrogen is in a liquid form and very much less when it is stored as a compressed gas.

Now this is from the website http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/p.../hydrogen.html

Again since we are not talking about just Hydrogen this statement is not exactly what I am thinking about the addition of Oxygen turns Hydrogen into a whole other monster.

Also on your last post below

Gasoline: 46.4 MJ/kg, and 34.2 MJ/L
Liquid hydrogen: 143 MJ/kg, 10.1 MJ/L
Gaseous hydrogen: 143 MJ/kg, 0.0179 MJ/L

so what about
Gaseous Hydrogen and Oxygen this mixture has its own set of properties it burns 700 degrees hotter than regular Hydrogen gas. It has more power in it so unless you find a
chart with HHO and not Just Hydrogen then you can say by volume it would take a ton of HHO to make a difference. My system uses under a 1/4 cup of distilled water a whole tank of gas. It would be somewhere around 10 hours to use up a tank of gas. A fuel cell doesn't drink water like you think it would.

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Old 04-03-2011, 11:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
He says it explodes because if you were to take a single cylinder gasoline engine such as a dirt bike engine and monitor how the piston slams down from the ignition of gasoline and with HHO gasoline there would be a big difference. HHO is so explosive, its like a mini bomb instead of a sudden burn of gasoline that expands into gasses that push the piston down.
Sorry, but this means nothing to me. The most meaningful way I can make sense of that is to say that the flame front propagates faster when burning hydrogen and oxygen than when burning gasoline and air. But, what really matters is how much energy is released during the combustion.

When hydrogen burns, it burns with oxygen. Sending extra O into to the combustion chamber with your HH doesn't give you more energy, is just means it won't be robbing O from the intake charge. So your AFR will stay where it should be, which is nice, but there's no free energy here.

1/4 cup of water per tank of fuel = negligible additional energy

From the article you quoted:

Quote:
[....] the law of conservation of energy tells us that all the energy to be obtained by burning the hydrogen must be supplied by the primary source, e.g. nuclear or solar [NSFW: in this case, gasoline]. Of course, since these processes aren't 100 percent efficient, there is some loss of energy. Therefore, the use of hydrogen as an intermediate is justified only when there is some reason not to use the primary source directly.
This is basically the same thing that van_dutch said earlier... The power required from gasoline to generate electricity to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen gases, is greater than the power you get back when you burn those gases in combustion chamber. It's more efficient to just use that gasoline directly.
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