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Old 06-01-2011, 11:15 PM   #1
newclutch
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Default why do you need 400+ hsp

So much of the chat here is about getting 400, 500, 600 horsepower. Why would you need that much except for the few dedicated drag cars. When I launch my car (327 torque) I can not get to full boost because I have to shift to second. In second gear my motor is pulling so hard and fast that I am only IN second for about 2 seconds. Third gear is the first real chance to spend time accelerating 3-4 seconds. Forth gear is where all the extra big power can be used. But by then I am doing 125-130. That is to fast for the street. It would be safe on an empty Highway, but highways are never that empty and the Police frown on that kind of speeding. On most tracks I get up to 118 -120 and a corner appears so I have to brake. I have a funny feeling that my 306 horsepower car gets up to 115 at the end of a straight. A 400 horspower car gets up to 119 on the same straight. A 500 horsepower car will get to 125-126. The added expence and decrease in longevity of the extra 200 horsepower only buys .5 - .9 seconds per lap for most tracks. It does not make the day of driving any more fun than blasting around at the limit in a 227 horsepower WRX. I am guessing here as I do not have 500 horsepower but Big front mount + big rotated turbo = slightly more turbo lag. Hence the law of diminishing returns.
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:29 PM   #2
fhazeIII
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...this one goes to 11?
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Old 06-01-2011, 11:45 PM   #3
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It's because everyone is different and has different limits. No one is an automatic pro driver or comes to the understanding that you gotta start out slow to go fast. There are enthusiasts that are going to go slower than you with double power, but just the simple fact of being on a track and wanting to attempt to push the limits in the right enviornment is still exhilarating to those paticular enthusiasts.

My fun for me is just wringing every ounce of "G" out of ANY car, motorcycle, or go kart whether it's lateral, decel or accell and knowing that I get more out of just the fact that I LOVE to corner, than the idea that there might be faster cars out there that can't do it as well as guys with less hp......it doesn't help that i'm extremely competitive either Oh and get on a track with some longer straights and you'll see why alot of guys like the extra ponies.

PS: Try to break up that huge paragraph.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:02 AM   #4
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The idea for power is to go as fast as possible all the time. If you can't spin the tires in every gear, you can makes use of more power.

I'll give you a simple example. I do rally-x. At times I co-drive my bro's FXT. It's running an 18G with somewhere around 21psi. On dirt, this amount of power lets me spin the tires just enough in 1st gear but not in 2nd. In fact, I feel I would need a solid 400 ft-lbs at the wheels just to make the tires break free in 2nd gear on command...on dirt.

Then I step to asphalt and summer tires in auto-x. Now I have more grip. I can spin tires at launch but barely (not shock loading but making good use of engine inertia). However, 2nd gear is way under powered at full throttle to break the car free. At best I get to spin up one tire a little bit (open and mild viscous diffs). How much power would I really like on asphalt? I'd love a solid 600 ft-lbs. JUST to be able to use the tires to 100% in only the first 2 gears.

Now you step to a race track and you start using 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th in the case of a STI. Each gear up is a moderate drop in torque. 1st to 2nd, boom, 40% drop in torque at the wheels. 2nd 3rd gear, boom, another 20% gone and we're down to a 60% loss versus 1st. 4th gear is another 10%, 70% down from 1st. 5th is about 10% more. In total sitting in 5th gear we are outputting only 23% (5sp gearing) the torque as we did in 1st gear.

Want to know why people want a lot of power? That's while. Once you get to higher speeds, you NEED that much power to have the same acceleration freedom as you do in lower gears. Sure we can talk low power in a fwd or rwd car, but we have awd platforms. This means we can put down a LOT more power if and only if we have it available. If it takes 100 ft-lbs to spin a tire in 1st gear, and awd car can make use of 400 ft-lbs in 1st. In 2nd it can make use of 670 ft-lbs, in 3rd nearly 1000 ft-lbs!!! ...just to spin all 4 tires on command. We of course convert torque to hp later, and now we're looking at massive, massive hp. For a simple comparison, a 600 ft-lbs designed motor will output 750hp at 6500 rpm. This is why you see a lot of very high powered time attack cars too. Many are shooting for 600hp, 700hp, or 800hp out of these little 4-bangers shoving a lot of boost into a race fueled motor. Heck, remember the old Group B rally cars? How about many of the current hill climb cars?

How much power do you need?

How much can you put down to the ground?

That really is the simple answer, as much as you can put down.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:08 AM   #5
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In wheel to wheel racing .5-.9 seconds can be the differnce between a podium, and not.
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Old 06-02-2011, 12:52 AM   #6
Patrick Olsen
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What's an "hsp"?
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:26 AM   #7
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If you have to ask, no amount explanation could possibly help.

But I'll try anyway.

I just love the way it feels to accelerate. WOT to redline in 2nd gear puts a smile on my face every time... That smile got bigger when I went from a VF40 to an ATP3076.

And then I merge with traffic on the freeway and I blend right in. I didn't get more power so I could go faster. I got more power so I could accelerate harder. No speeding tickets here (knock on wood).
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Old 06-02-2011, 01:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
What's an "hsp"?
Yeah I was wondering that too
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Old 06-02-2011, 02:24 AM   #9
greg donovan
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why not?
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:10 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by okiedude View Post
In wheel to wheel racing .5-.9 seconds can be the differnce between a podium, and not.
Not just wheel to wheel but time attack also.
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Old 06-02-2011, 03:48 AM   #11
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Friend, this is a car enthusiasts forum, we strive to better the performance and handling of our cars. If this is contrary to your interests I am sure there is someplace more suited to your tastes.

I will now translate to NASIOCese, hmm, let me see, oh yes, GTFO!
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:54 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen View Post
What's an "hsp"?
High speed power?
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by import111 View Post
Not just wheel to wheel but time attack also.
True dat.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:14 AM   #14
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Imagine your actually doing a track event - close your eyes and pretend you actually go to the track.....You are the best driver on the track - you have your super license and can catch up to anyone in the esses or brake harder and later than any other car on the track. Then you get on the straight and get passed by 6 cars because you only have 227hp....hack drivers are passing you all over the place and they don't even have their International A license yet. Better get your car over to GT auto for a high RPM range turbo kit!

(sorry - had to try to put it into understandable terms)
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:29 AM   #15
corey_dyck
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Drive a 200 hp car on a given track. Drive a 500 hp car on the same track. The 500 hp car will have your hands shaking more and you giggling like a teenage girl. Of course, the car and consumables will cost a lot more for the 500 hp car.

I dropped ~9 seconds going from a Spec-ish Miata to a 500hp Camaro at a local road course (1:14 to 1:05). The Miata was on 205 Toyo RA1s, the Camaro was on 275 Falken Azenis. They were both stupid amounts of fun, the Camaro was slightly more fun.
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:44 AM   #16
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In my experience 400+ hp isn't really "needed" but after a while you start to learn and know your car on track, off track and so on and you start to want to push limits. Once you do that, then comes the obsessions of wanting more power for whatever reason it may be and that's where people start with the modifications to get faster or have a little bit more fun.

After my S13 got to about 350 rwhp I noticed I wasn't going to get more power without having to invest way more money into it than I have already, so I let it go and went a different direction.

It's always going to be a personal thirst for "more".
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Old 06-02-2011, 11:53 AM   #17
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You only need power when actually racing, and then you want the most power allowable in your class because every fraction of a second counts.

In non-racing situations it is just about fun and for some people power=fun. Whether you can really use it or not doesn't always matter.

It sounds like you do not equate power to fun, which is absolutely fine. There are plenty of ways to enjoy cars and driving that do not involve trying to get 400 hp.

Someone said "it's more fun trying to go fast in a slow car".
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:29 AM   #18
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If there are freeway onramp in your part of the world, you can use plenty of power, legally.

More power gives you more acceleration. That only translates to higher speeds if you get carried away with it...
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Old 06-03-2011, 04:58 PM   #19
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If you have to ask I guess you just don't get it. Some people want it just for the number and bragging rights. For me, there are few things that can compare to the sheer thrill of being pinned to your seat from the acceleration of something fast. That said, I can't wait to get my car back tonight and enjoy all 435 hp and 450 tq.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:14 PM   #20
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For racing any edge counts, so get as much power as you can. For dd its another story. I think what everyone is missing here is that this power curve starts to plateau at some point for dd. What i mean by plateau is plotting cost or fun versus hp. To go from 300 to 400 will cost alot of money and is it really more fun for dd than 300. Sure if you spend the money you tell yourself its way better, but having driven other peoples higher hp cars, the difference is not that outrageous for dd. The best mods are related to handling not power imho.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:11 PM   #21
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More is better!
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:19 PM   #22
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When you have it you will know why
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:17 AM   #23
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well i figured, if my car is faster than a cop's, then i wont get pulled over?
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:30 AM   #24
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Maybe some people just love power and got bored

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jäger View Post
well i figured, if my car is faster than a cop's, then i wont get pulled over?
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:54 AM   #25
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Look at most of the americans more is better lol. I just like the fact of having a 4 cylinder 500hp car and still get 20 22mpg and when these american cars have a hard time doin that with there big v8. But let's face it you get bored of the 300hp car. Don't get me wrong, im not all about power.
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