whatever happened to homologation specials?

deepbeep · 02-26-2001, 10:49 PM

I remember being a wee little 10 y/o tyke and getting mighty excited about the Group B cars... All those cars had to have 200 "identical" roadgoing models built to qualify (each and everyone I covet today, and curse rsquire again and again and again

). Why does this qualifying rule no longer seem to be in effect?

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Dave_Clark · 02-27-2001, 02:09 AM

Guess what? They will be selling homologation specials here in the U.S. in a few days. They're called Subaru WRXs! The current Group A and Group N rules still require a certain number of homologated examples. That's why cars like the Subaru WRX STi, Mitsubishi Lancer EVO, Ford Escort Cosworth, etc. were made available. It used to be there had to be 5000 examples built but to be honest I haven't been keeping track and I'm not sure what the number is now. You can find that info on the FIA website.

The World Rally Cars (ie: Toyota Corolla WRC, Seat Cordoba WRC, Peugeot 206 WRC, and even Subaru Impreza 22B and 44S) are another story. The World Rally Car rules were developed a few years ago to enable more manufacturers to be able to afford to play in the World Rally Championship without having to go to the great expense of producing and marketing a specialized vehicle such as the Lancer Evo. The World Rally Car rules only require a handful of examples to be built, so the smaller manufacturers like Skoda and Seat and Peugeot, etc can afford to participate. It's more of a sillouette class. That's why there are turbocharged, 4wd Skoda Octavias and Toyota Corollas and Peugeot 206s competing in the World Rally Championship even though you can't buy one from the showroom. Try going into your local Ford dealer and ask to test drive a tubocharged four wheel drive Focus. If you're lucky you'll just get a funny look.

[This message has been edited by DMS-USA (edited February 27, 2001).]

Shik · 02-27-2001, 05:01 AM

It's good in a way that the rules are the way they are now, but IMHO it somewhat seperates the rally cars from the street cars. Not really, but a little bit.

Back when the Impreza was still running as a Group A car, it was called a "Group A WRX", almost like the identical car you can buy, but just a different model. Nowadays most people don't really consider the WRC Impreza as a WRX, they consider it a WRC Impreza.

I for one was happy as hell to see the new WRC Impreza resemble the current WRX quite a bit closer then the previous WRC car did( besides the 22B). Although the fender flares are still a bit larger, at least the WRX sedans have them.

I personally have no idea what is involved for a manufacturer to actually make and sell AWD turbo street car versions of their WRC car, but at this point in time, I think the manufacturers would sell all that they would make( OK, maybe not Skoda

).

mykrrrr · 02-27-2001, 07:23 AM

Dave - What are you talking about??? I just test drove an AWD turbo Focus...then I woke up...hehehe

Manufacturers needed to build 2500 units of the Grp. A cars. I'm not sure about Grp. N vehicles though...

WRC cars I thought were 200 units but I'm probably wrong.

-myk

Weasel 555 · 02-27-2001, 07:47 AM

The Group B cars were banned after too many accidents involving spectators and the death of Henri Toivanen....After that they went on to Group A and N...

Primm Motorsports · 02-27-2001, 08:03 AM

Gp.A & Gp.N require 2500 units to be built Gp.A is just a Gp.N car with more performance mods allowed. WRC Cars require that 200 units be built.

You can find all the information you want at the FIA Web-Site: http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html

Dante
Primm Motorsports

Jon Bogert · 02-27-2001, 08:04 AM

Group N is the same as Group A, in terms of eligability. Minimum production is 2500 cars. The difference is that Group N cars have much stricter limits on modifications.

See http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Ann...4(01-02)-a.pdf for details.

Tangmere · 02-27-2001, 08:17 AM

Somebody please explain a Pro Rally Hyundai Tiberon that is basically an Eclipse with a Tiberon body on it to me? How do they get by with that?

Jon Bogert · 02-27-2001, 08:22 AM

The Tiburon is not Group A or N--it's SCCA Open class which allows any motor swaps as long as the parts are vaguely related to the manufacturer. Gearboxes and drivetrains are unrestricted.

Hyundai drivetrains are (were) Mitsubishi designed anyway, so it's easy to make the justification.

deepbeep · 02-27-2001, 10:37 AM

Ok, so Dante, if the manufacturers are still required to build 200 identical vehicles to compete in the WRC, then what are they doing with them, and where are they being sold?!

Primm Motorsports · 02-27-2001, 10:46 AM

Well this season Subaru is using the WRX instead of the 22B. The 22B had been manufactured in quantities of at least 200 per year in order to be used. As for manufacturing the exact vehicle (options/drivetrain etc...) that is not a requirement but the basic vehicle's desing & shell is.

Dante

deepbeep · 02-27-2001, 10:51 AM

Gotcha... I think I'll return to coveting a Lancia 037 in Martini livery now

Jon Bogert · 02-27-2001, 10:59 AM

Dante, where did you find that 200 number? I'm sure that's incorrect. Ford did not build 200 WRC Foci, and Hyundai certainly hasn't built 200 WRC Accents.

Group B required 200 to be built, however...

Primm Motorsports · 02-27-2001, 01:40 PM

They didn't need to they are based on the Focus and the Accent body/chassis. The 22B body/chassis was not the same as the standard WRX it was 22mm wider and therefore hade to be produced in limited production numbers to be accepted by the FIA.

Dante

Shik · 02-27-2001, 03:03 PM

The 22B had nothing to do with the WRC car. The WRC car was built towards the end of the season in 96', the 22B was a MY98. The fact that Subaru built 400+ 22Bs had nothing to do with the FIA. Also, the 22Bs started life as plain old stripped down WRX Type RA's. I believe only the suspension arms, axles, and 8.5" wheels gave the 22B the wider track, the chassis was standard WRX kit.

I have heard that the number was at least 50, but in 97, Subaru only made 19 for the entire season and Toyota only made 6, although they didn't run the whole season with them. Ford had around 27 or so. So I don't think there is any set number carved in stone, maybe there is though?

As DMS mentioned, the whole reason for the WRC class was that manufactuers didn't have to make a few thousand or even hundred cars in order to compete. They could basically build one-off's which is a hell of alot cheaper then making an entirely new model of car.

Primm Motorsports · 02-27-2001, 03:12 PM

Hmmmm?!?, All my sources have lead me to understand that it was a purpose built vehicle so they could run it in the WRC and that is why they had to produce a certian number of them for public consumption. I may stand corrected.

Dante

[This message has been edited by Primm Motorsports (edited February 27, 2001).]

02-26-2001, 10:49 PM	#1
deepbeep Scooby Specialist Member#: 1392 Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Oakland, CA	whatever happened to homologation specials? I remember being a wee little 10 y/o tyke and getting mighty excited about the Group B cars... All those cars had to have 200 "identical" roadgoing models built to qualify (each and everyone I covet today, and curse rsquire again and again and again ). Why does this qualifying rule no longer seem to be in effect? * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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02-27-2001, 02:09 AM	#2
Dave_Clark Scooby Specialist Member#: 1015 Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Seattle, WA, USA	Guess what? They will be selling homologation specials here in the U.S. in a few days. They're called Subaru WRXs! The current Group A and Group N rules still require a certain number of homologated examples. That's why cars like the Subaru WRX STi, Mitsubishi Lancer EVO, Ford Escort Cosworth, etc. were made available. It used to be there had to be 5000 examples built but to be honest I haven't been keeping track and I'm not sure what the number is now. You can find that info on the FIA website. The World Rally Cars (ie: Toyota Corolla WRC, Seat Cordoba WRC, Peugeot 206 WRC, and even Subaru Impreza 22B and 44S) are another story. The World Rally Car rules were developed a few years ago to enable more manufacturers to be able to afford to play in the World Rally Championship without having to go to the great expense of producing and marketing a specialized vehicle such as the Lancer Evo. The World Rally Car rules only require a handful of examples to be built, so the smaller manufacturers like Skoda and Seat and Peugeot, etc can afford to participate. It's more of a sillouette class. That's why there are turbocharged, 4wd Skoda Octavias and Toyota Corollas and Peugeot 206s competing in the World Rally Championship even though you can't buy one from the showroom. Try going into your local Ford dealer and ask to test drive a tubocharged four wheel drive Focus. If you're lucky you'll just get a funny look. [This message has been edited by DMS-USA (edited February 27, 2001).]

02-27-2001, 05:01 AM	#3
Shik NASIOC Supporter Member#: 132 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Central PA Vehicle: 1997 LGT Wagon 5spd '06 LGT 5spd Ltd Sdn	It's good in a way that the rules are the way they are now, but IMHO it somewhat seperates the rally cars from the street cars. Not really, but a little bit. Back when the Impreza was still running as a Group A car, it was called a "Group A WRX", almost like the identical car you can buy, but just a different model. Nowadays most people don't really consider the WRC Impreza as a WRX, they consider it a WRC Impreza. I for one was happy as hell to see the new WRC Impreza resemble the current WRX quite a bit closer then the previous WRC car did( besides the 22B). Although the fender flares are still a bit larger, at least the WRX sedans have them. I personally have no idea what is involved for a manufacturer to actually make and sell AWD turbo street car versions of their WRC car, but at this point in time, I think the manufacturers would sell all that they would make( OK, maybe not Skoda ).

02-27-2001, 07:23 AM	#4
mykrrrr Scooby Guru Member#: 733 Join Date: Jan 2000 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Squadra Delle Pecore Nere Vehicle: '13 Focus ST '85 GTi rally/road race	Dave - What are you talking about??? I just test drove an AWD turbo Focus...then I woke up...hehehe Manufacturers needed to build 2500 units of the Grp. A cars. I'm not sure about Grp. N vehicles though... WRC cars I thought were 200 units but I'm probably wrong. -myk

02-27-2001, 07:47 AM	#5
Weasel 555 world rally chucklehead Moderator Member#: 4168 Join Date: Feb 2001 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: N.Y. & U.K. Vehicle: 13 ST Black with Sparkely bits	The Group B cars were banned after too many accidents involving spectators and the death of Henri Toivanen....After that they went on to Group A and N...

02-27-2001, 08:03 AM	#6
Primm Motorsports Vendor Member#: 2098 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Mission Viejo, CA, USA	Gp.A & Gp.N require 2500 units to be built Gp.A is just a Gp.N car with more performance mods allowed. WRC Cars require that 200 units be built. You can find all the information you want at the FIA Web-Site: http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html Dante Primm Motorsports

02-27-2001, 08:04 AM	#7
Jon Bogert Scooby Specialist Member#: 1133 Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: SE PA Vehicle: '02 996 C4S '95 993 '71 911 3.0 '04 STI	Group N is the same as Group A, in terms of eligability. Minimum production is 2500 cars. The difference is that Group N cars have much stricter limits on modifications. See http://www.fia.com/regle/REG_TEC/Ann...4(01-02)-a.pdf for details.

02-27-2001, 08:17 AM	#8
Tangmere Scooby Specialist Member#: 572 Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Boulder, Colorado	Somebody please explain a Pro Rally Hyundai Tiberon that is basically an Eclipse with a Tiberon body on it to me? How do they get by with that?

02-27-2001, 08:22 AM	#9
Jon Bogert Scooby Specialist Member#: 1133 Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: SE PA Vehicle: '02 996 C4S '95 993 '71 911 3.0 '04 STI	The Tiburon is not Group A or N--it's SCCA Open class which allows any motor swaps as long as the parts are vaguely related to the manufacturer. Gearboxes and drivetrains are unrestricted. Hyundai drivetrains are (were) Mitsubishi designed anyway, so it's easy to make the justification.

02-27-2001, 10:37 AM	#10
deepbeep Scooby Specialist Member#: 1392 Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Oakland, CA	Ok, so Dante, if the manufacturers are still required to build 200 identical vehicles to compete in the WRC, then what are they doing with them, and where are they being sold?!

02-27-2001, 10:46 AM	#11
Primm Motorsports Vendor Member#: 2098 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Mission Viejo, CA, USA	Well this season Subaru is using the WRX instead of the 22B. The 22B had been manufactured in quantities of at least 200 per year in order to be used. As for manufacturing the exact vehicle (options/drivetrain etc...) that is not a requirement but the basic vehicle's desing & shell is. Dante

02-27-2001, 10:51 AM	#12
deepbeep Scooby Specialist Member#: 1392 Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: Oakland, CA	Gotcha... I think I'll return to coveting a Lancia 037 in Martini livery now

02-27-2001, 10:59 AM	#13
Jon Bogert Scooby Specialist Member#: 1133 Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: SE PA Vehicle: '02 996 C4S '95 993 '71 911 3.0 '04 STI	Dante, where did you find that 200 number? I'm sure that's incorrect. Ford did not build 200 WRC Foci, and Hyundai certainly hasn't built 200 WRC Accents. Group B required 200 to be built, however...

02-27-2001, 01:40 PM	#14
Primm Motorsports Vendor Member#: 2098 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Mission Viejo, CA, USA	They didn't need to they are based on the Focus and the Accent body/chassis. The 22B body/chassis was not the same as the standard WRX it was 22mm wider and therefore hade to be produced in limited production numbers to be accepted by the FIA. Dante

02-27-2001, 03:03 PM	#15
Shik NASIOC Supporter Member#: 132 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Central PA Vehicle: 1997 LGT Wagon 5spd '06 LGT 5spd Ltd Sdn	The 22B had nothing to do with the WRC car. The WRC car was built towards the end of the season in 96', the 22B was a MY98. The fact that Subaru built 400+ 22Bs had nothing to do with the FIA. Also, the 22Bs started life as plain old stripped down WRX Type RA's. I believe only the suspension arms, axles, and 8.5" wheels gave the 22B the wider track, the chassis was standard WRX kit. I have heard that the number was at least 50, but in 97, Subaru only made 19 for the entire season and Toyota only made 6, although they didn't run the whole season with them. Ford had around 27 or so. So I don't think there is any set number carved in stone, maybe there is though? As DMS mentioned, the whole reason for the WRC class was that manufactuers didn't have to make a few thousand or even hundred cars in order to compete. They could basically build one-off's which is a hell of alot cheaper then making an entirely new model of car.

02-27-2001, 03:12 PM	#16
Primm Motorsports Vendor Member#: 2098 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Mission Viejo, CA, USA	Hmmmm?!?, All my sources have lead me to understand that it was a purpose built vehicle so they could run it in the WRC and that is why they had to produce a certian number of them for public consumption. I may stand corrected. Dante [This message has been edited by Primm Motorsports (edited February 27, 2001).]