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Old 06-27-2011, 06:11 PM   #26
Corinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorNick
Interesting. stock FPR?

Did you run this thru the winter? I would be curious what your cold start was... in chicagoland. AZ, well I am sure it was a bit better
Well I just moved back from Arizona so we will see. On some of the ~50 degree nights in Arizona it would be a little rough on cold starts. It also hates to start after I pump gas and usually dies a time or two before holding an idle.
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:39 PM   #27
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ID2000's do not idle like ID1000's do.

they idle about half as well
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:43 PM   #28
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Its like subarus need a glow plug or something because of how rich they run
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candor View Post
Would it be better to run ID2000s (if they exist) at 42.5% IDC or ID 1000's at 85% IDC? There is clearly a max but where is there a min or a point where it starts negatively affecting?
It makes no difference. Let me re-phrase, if you have an AP and a 32 bit ecu, it makes no difference(or stand alone). With an AP and a 32 bit ecu you can(supposedly, I've never tried it as I hate AP's) adjust the minimum pulse width of the injector. Currently, on a 16 bit ecu, or using open source, you cannot. This causes idle issues. The minimum pulse width is .5ms, which is A TON of fuel through a 2000cc injector. On pump it equates to about 11:1 AFR before playing with certain tables to fix it. On E, it's 12.xx:1. Either way, it makes for a crap idle. So if you have the means to control it, by all means, have at it. If not, prepare to hate life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorNick View Post
2kcc injectors. wow. I would imagine you would have a hell of a time getting good gas mileage at low speeds/light throttle input with injectors that big.
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Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
That's why I only went to 1680cc injectors. I still get like 22-23 MPG on the highway and the car holds a rock steady idle at ~900 rpm. I'm also on a utec running speed density which isn't helping fuel economy at all.
The size of the injector has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with MPG. If you have a way to control the injectors properly, MPG shouldn't change at all between 1cc and 1,000,000cc. The problem lies in the boost tables, and the drivers right foot. Or poor tuning as is sometimes the case.

You try to scale a car out to run ~14.7:1 AFR during cruise, having larger injectors doesn't change what your target is. If you can't reach that target, you either have a poor tuner, or poor control over the injectors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorNick View Post
Was anyone ever really able to get those APS tumbler deletes with added injector ports working properly on a street car?I know a friend of mine used them but his car had an AEM.

I would imagine for people running E85, a 2nd set of injectors that would turn on with boost would certainly help drive ability. Doubt the stock ecu could manage that though.
Not sure about the first part, though I can tell you that the stock ecu couldn't handle it.

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Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
Well I just moved back from Arizona so we will see. On some of the ~50 degree nights in Arizona it would be a little rough on cold starts. It also hates to start after I pump gas and usually dies a time or two before holding an idle.
That has nothing to do with the injectors and everything to do with the tune. Unfortunately cold starts are the hardest thing to tune. Especially on an injector that isn't very popular. Most tuners probably won't have tables that are tried and tested for an FIC, though I bet almost all of them have some for DW's.

Trying to tune cold start is a guessing game. Unless it's your personal car and you can log it every morning, it makes it tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexington View Post
ID2000's do not idle like ID1000's do.

they idle about half as well
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Old 06-27-2011, 06:57 PM   #30
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elevenpoint7five, So your saying at idle a 1k, 440 and a 2k injector should all net the same amount of fuel consumption?
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:00 PM   #31
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Provided idle speed is the same, yes. Generally with the larger injectors you raise idle speed a bit to compensate for the size, so at idle gas mileage would suffer slightly. Not due to the injectors though, due to the higher RPM being sustained.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:04 PM   #32
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So you raise the idle RPM to compensate for injector size, which means more gas in the hole. Yet you say that it doesn't effect fuel mileage. Hmmm.

I would tend to bet a car spends plenty of time at idle when at stopsigns, stop lights etc. (low speeds)
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:08 PM   #33
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I missed a lot! My Subaru is eating itself from the ass forward.....:tear:
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:11 PM   #34
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I'm glad you read what I wrote.
Quote:
Not due to the injectors though, due to the higher RPM being sustained.
I could run my 1000's at 700 RPM if I wanted, and I have with no ill effects. I chose to keep my 1000 RPM idle because it plays nicer with my clutch and super long gears.

People don't raise idle RPM because of big injectors, they raise it because of poor injector latency grouping, or laziness. 95% of the time, it's probably laziness. I know one of the first things I do when I get into a car is to bump the idle up if they have larger injectors. It makes things easier on the tuner with very minimal effects on MPG. If you'd like to take measurements and prove me wrong, by all means, go for it. But I'm willing to put money on the fact that you won't see more than 2 miles PER TANK even driving in the city for the whole tank.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:15 PM   #35
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Reading is for losers, I only look at the pictures.

I think this is the beginning of a fantastic semantics war

Cause and Effect. Which came first!

I say its fuel before fire, your saying fire for the fuel. Dun dun duuuun.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:19 PM   #36
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Fair enough. But we're talking about ~.033 cc's of fuel per minute per injector, so in a standard Subaru motor, ~.13 cc's per minute. That's not much. Ask Dewey how long it takes to idle out gas
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:21 PM   #37
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You are right about that.

And yes, I have had to do the empty the tank by the FPR at the track before. Hello longest 10 minutes of your life.

.13cc per min or per cycle?
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:28 PM   #38
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Check my math...but I think per minute.

2000cc/min injectors, with a minimum IPW of .5ms. 60,000ms in 1 second so...

(2000/60000)*4 = .13

Is that right?

Even if it is per cycle, 1 cc = 0.000264172052 US gallons according to Google.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:31 PM   #39
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I started to do the math, then this happened...



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Old 06-27-2011, 07:47 PM   #40
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Wow learning a lot about injectors.
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Old 06-27-2011, 08:38 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubbard 0

I'd start at 1600cc to be honest. Though if 1000cc is all you need, I'm betting Zack would have a good deal on some for you soon.

You sure? Zack seemed to think his ID1000s weren't sufficient.
Zack has top feed and andy has side feed...unless he wants to convert.
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:31 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris06Sti View Post
20g, get that car back to the track yet? Heard you comin from a mile away on Saturday afternoon shooting down Algonquin road with Giz and Tuner, up towards Randall.
Not since a couple weeks ago when I ran that 11.9 hotlapping on blizzaks (hello counter steer) for the hell of it.

I'll probably go again here in the next several weeks.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:00 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmx999 View Post
Zack has top feed and andy has side feed...unless he wants to convert.
Actually that should be the other way around. The 04-06 STi's had side feed injectors and the WRX's, and 07+ STi's have top feed injectors. I thought Zack converted though so they should both be top feed.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:10 PM   #44
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I can not wait till Friday. Going to hit the Autobahn track on Joliet.

http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...5364DDE59F34B8
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:12 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by veener79
I can not wait till Friday. Going to hit the Autobahn track on Joliet.

http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.c...5364DDE59F34B8
Lucky!!!!!!!!
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:27 PM   #46
Corinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elevenpoint7five View Post
It makes no difference. Let me re-phrase, if you have an AP and a 32 bit ecu, it makes no difference(or stand alone). With an AP and a 32 bit ecu you can(supposedly, I've never tried it as I hate AP's) adjust the minimum pulse width of the injector. Currently, on a 16 bit ecu, or using open source, you cannot. This causes idle issues. The minimum pulse width is .5ms, which is A TON of fuel through a 2000cc injector. On pump it equates to about 11:1 AFR before playing with certain tables to fix it. On E, it's 12.xx:1. Either way, it makes for a crap idle. So if you have the means to control it, by all means, have at it. If not, prepare to hate life.




The size of the injector has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with MPG. If you have a way to control the injectors properly, MPG shouldn't change at all between 1cc and 1,000,000cc. The problem lies in the boost tables, and the drivers right foot. Or poor tuning as is sometimes the case.

You try to scale a car out to run ~14.7:1 AFR during cruise, having larger injectors doesn't change what your target is. If you can't reach that target, you either have a poor tuner, or poor control over the injectors.


Not sure about the first part, though I can tell you that the stock ecu couldn't handle it.


That has nothing to do with the injectors and everything to do with the tune. Unfortunately cold starts are the hardest thing to tune. Especially on an injector that isn't very popular. Most tuners probably won't have tables that are tried and tested for an FIC, though I bet almost all of them have some for DW's.

Trying to tune cold start is a guessing game. Unless it's your personal car and you can log it every morning, it makes it tough.

Clark Turner did an awesome job on my tune. He said he was impressed with how nice the FIC injectors performed.
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:04 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_DeWeY

Actually that should be the other way around. The 04-06 STi's had side feed injectors and the WRX's, and 07+ STi's have top feed injectors. I thought Zack converted though so they should both be top feed.
I always get that **** confused...regardless aren't they different between zacks and andy's 06?


2007+ STI are topfeed
2004-2006 STI are sidefeed
2002+ WRX are topfeed
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:16 PM   #48
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Yes different, but Zack changed his.
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:18 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmx999 View Post
I always get that **** confused...regardless aren't they different between zacks and andy's 06?


2007+ STI are topfeed
2004-2006 STI are sidefeed
2002+ WRX are topfeed
correct
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:58 PM   #50
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Andy has a WRX not an STi also hence him starting with top feeds.
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