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Old 07-01-2011, 02:10 PM   #1
cueballsi
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Default Oil pick up tubes

I read about these aftermarket or reinforced oil pick up tubes, due to the failures at the flange. does this ONLY apply to 2.5L blocks, or does it apply to 2.0? as well? are they the same?


What are you running in your built motor?
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:12 PM   #2
binjoau
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Covert oil pickup in my built 09 WRX, low cost and a super nice piece. For $125 its a massive improvement over stock
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Old 07-01-2011, 03:58 PM   #3
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Killer B on my EJ205
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:02 PM   #4
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killer b on my Hybrid.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:09 PM   #5
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All of the OEM ones have the same potential to crack.

I'm also using a Covert one on my hybrid. Much cheaper than the KillerB and just as strong.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:12 PM   #6
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I think I got a PM from you, but I get a lot so maybe it was someone else. To answer your question, yes. Since the EJ motors came out there have been pickup failures. Here's a tidbit from our website...

I’ve gotten many requests for detailed information regarding the Oil Pickup, both OEM and the one we manufacture so I thought I’d post, what I know, for everyone to see. Specifically the questions seemed to be about the factory pickup and how/why it fails. Bear in mind this is information that has been presented to me and I am no scientist.



So on to the factory pickups… They are brazed assemblies (it's kind of like welding, but more like soldering with temperatures much lower than welding ~800 degrees. The braze is the gold stuff you see between the pieces. Before the braze can be applied to the metal pieces you put this stuff called 'flux' on them. The flux makes sure that when the parts are heated up that the braze flows between and sticks to the metal parts properly. When operators, or machines, puts the flux on these parts to get them ready for brazing, the flux must AT LEAST cover the area that needs to be brazed together. So the application of the flux is typically quite extensive and sloppy.

This application of flux and brazing seem to be done properly because I've never seen a braze joint failure. The problem is that the flux SHOULD be cleaned from the parts after the brazing process has been completed. We'll come back to this in a second.

Now the tube, where the failures occur, is a simple thin (~.030") walled seam welded tube. A seam welded tube is basically a long skinny flat piece of metal that gets rolled into a tube and then welded where the edges meet. If you look at some of the pics in my link you'll see a distinct line that runs the length of the tube. That's the weld. Welded tubing has it's downside. While cheap, the weld can be the achilles heal if not done properly. In this situation it's a rough surface (when you look under a microscope), which means it can break or crack easier than if it were smooth, and more brittle than the non-welded area of the tube wall.

OK so back to the braze... When not removed from certain process affected areas, specifically a hardened rough weld, it will get into any micro pock mark or pit when it's applied then heated, and a chemical reaction will occur. The flux reacts with the specific metal condition of the weld (harder and pits, etc..) and will etch into the pits making them deeper... this can also make the metal more brittle too. This is what ends up weakening the structure to the point of cracking. And the fact that it's bolted to the bottom of an engine doesn't help either.

Speaking to vibrations and engines modified with bolt-ons. Engine vibration is not as much a contributing factor as you might initially think for a few reasons. The rotating assemblies are fairly well balanced and harmonically dampened. The oil pickup is submerged in oil, and filled with oil. This dampens the engine vibrations tremendously at the pickup. Some assume the pickup is just swinging around from the engine vibrations, but forget that the pickup is also in oil and full of oil. Now where high frequency vibrations do come from is the oil pump. Typically called ‘high frequency pressure pulsation’, these lower amplitude pulses can have a more pronounced affect because of harmonics that can build in the pickup assembly, possibly where a critical frequency may be being reached at certain RPMs (speed of the oil pump).

So essentially, based on what I have experienced and learned, the OEM oil pickup failures are initiated from a chemical reaction from braze flux on the weld seam and these weakened areas are taken advantage of by oil pump induced high frequency vibrations.


USDM Oil Pickups - Left: 02-05 WRX 2.0, Center: 04-05 Forester/Legacy/Impreza (all 2.5), Right: ALL 2.5 liter motors from 2006 to Current model year



Here are a couple examples...







IF YOU WANT TO SEE OUR WHOLE ALBUM OF OIL PICKUP FAILURES CLICK HERE.

Our pickup is installed on every racing venue imaginable. We work with a 3 Subaru team that runs endurance events on the Nurburgring, Redline Time-Attack, Podium Finish in the open class at Pikes Peak, etc, etc, etc.. We build the most durable, feature packed, highly engineered pickups on the market. We sell to more engine builders, shops worldwide and even to a handfull of Subaru dealerships that will put our pickup on warrantied cars. No one else has a product that trusted

If you have anymore questions pelase don't hesitate to ask.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan314 View Post
I'm also using a Covert one on my hybrid. Much cheaper than the KillerB and just as strong.
Not to stirr the pot (OK a little bit), but you've obviously not see the 2 side-by-side.
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Old 07-01-2011, 04:31 PM   #8
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I can't comment on your tube seeing as I have never seen one in person, but I am unhappy with a Covert pickup I have seen. The tube section of the assembly sticks about 1/2" past the inside wall of the collector box. This is far from ideal if smooth inlet flow and minimal pressure drop are desired. I would have much rather seen a part where the tube was welded to the pickup box and then was brought to flush or better yet radiused int eh are there the end of the pickup transitions to the tube.

EDIT: After poking around on your website I see (and a paraphrase) 'a specific note that says the tube does not penetrate can eliminating air bubbles'

For me that seals the deal.
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Not to stirr the pot (OK a little bit), but you've obviously not see the 2 side-by-side.
Well I'm sure both are MUCH better compared to the stock unit .
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:45 PM   #10
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I run the stock one.... The one on the far right, brand new.

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Old 07-01-2011, 07:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I think I got a PM from you, but I get a lot so maybe it was someone else. To answer your question, yes.
I sent you an e-mail :-)


was looking at the Covert, killer bee reinforced stock, or killer bee Ultimate


I sent you an e-mail but I will out it on the forum so others can lean...


I have a cosworth pan I have been meaning to install on my EJ20.... will your ultimate and reinforced verison fit on my ej20??? what is the difference with the ej25? the length?
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinSTi05 View Post
I can't comment on your tube seeing as I have never seen one in person, but I am unhappy with a Covert pickup I have seen. The tube section of the assembly sticks about 1/2" past the inside wall of the collector box. This is far from ideal if smooth inlet flow and minimal pressure drop are desired. I would have much rather seen a part where the tube was welded to the pickup box and then was brought to flush or better yet radiused int eh are there the end of the pickup transitions to the tube.

EDIT: After poking around on your website I see (and a paraphrase) 'a specific note that says the tube does not penetrate can eliminating air bubbles'

For me that seals the deal.
Your correct, with our pickup the tube does NOT penetrate the pickup box so there's no risk of sucking a slug of air into the tube. We also don't use a flat bottom pickup (the factory pickup uses dimples) to make sure if you squish the bottom of the pan into the pickup you don't ever block oil flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
I run the stock one.... The one on the far right, brand new.

That's good and bad. Good because when they fail they sometimes crack first giving the telltale low pressure at idle light (the other 2 typically break completely off). Bad because that pickup has a higher failure rate. They model (on the right) has been in use since 2006 right up the the current 2011 models in all imprezas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cueballsi View Post
I sent you an e-mail :-)


was looking at the Covert, killer bee reinforced stock, or killer bee Ultimate


I sent you an e-mail but I will out it on the forum so others can lean...


I have a cosworth pan I have been meaning to install on my EJ20.... will your ultimate and reinforced verison fit on my ej20??? what is the difference with the ej25? the length?
It's been a long time since I've seen a Cosworth pan, so I'm going to dig through some of my old notes. I know for certain we've got customers running our ultimate pickup with the Cosy pan, but they DID modify the pan. The EJ20 and EJ25 pickups are different heights, about ~1/2" What you should do is sell that Cosworth pan and get our pan setup
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Old 07-02-2011, 12:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan314 View Post
Well I'm sure both are MUCH better compared to the stock unit .
+1, the covert is better, killer bee is best, its your preference and budget that decides.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:08 PM   #14
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^ Correct.... and why ours is called the Ultimate Pickup and comes with a LIFETIME WARRANTY (like all our products).







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Old 07-03-2011, 01:46 AM   #15
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I've got the KillerB ultimate pickup. No sense cutting corners on the oiling system, plus KillerB is very active on the forums (as evidenced by this thread), so I have no doubt they would be willing to help if there were to ever be an issue or question about any of their products.
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Old 07-03-2011, 01:51 AM   #16
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I think thats all you like to do is stir the pot, and I usually just ignore all your snide remarks. In the pics below you can see that I no longer use a flat bottom, nor does the tube stick way out beyond the "container". The oem subaru unit extends the tube pretty much all the way to the screen, fyi. I am glad I didnt take you up on your offer of having "your" welding outfit weld my products, who knows what may have happened.
You certainly are an interesting person. Going from being somewhat cordial, asking me why i was doing this or that, what thickness materials was i using and why, to recommending I not re-engineer the oil pickup because subaru made it the way they did for a reason, to putting down almost every aspect of what I build.





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Old 07-03-2011, 08:43 AM   #17
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Really Kelly (covert performance), is that how you remember it? Between your job hops and moves over the years I think you've seriously confused your facts. The ONLY conversation you or I ever had was regarding design. You were just starting with the pickups and I commented on some design issues that we had already encountered to try and save you some headaches (which it looks like you've done). I could care less about the specs on your materials and whatnot. IMO your design is thought out, but not engineered. I'm not concerned with competing with your product, because yours are for the bargain shopper, the ebay shopper, and ours is for the spare no expense guys. This exists in all markets for nearly all parts, it's the nature of business.

We don't manufacture anyone's part nor have we ever had a desire to.

Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 07-03-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:42 AM   #18
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Both are better than stock, but I wish you guys at killerbmotorsports made an economy version. I understand that oil is the life blood of the engine and all but if you are building on a budget it would be nice to have a choice between the ultimate and maybe an "upgraded" style.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:48 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrowfulkiller View Post
Both are better than stock, but I wish you guys at killerbmotorsports made an economy version. I understand that oil is the life blood of the engine and all but if you are building on a budget it would be nice to have a choice between the ultimate and maybe an "upgraded" style.
If both pickups are better than stock, and one is significantly cheaper than the other, perhaps you might have stumbled upon the answer to your prayer, so to speak?

Full disclosure - I have neither product, have nothing to do with either company, so have no axe to grind...
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigga View Post
If both pickups are better than stock, and one is significantly cheaper than the other, perhaps you might have stumbled upon the answer to your prayer, so to speak?

Full disclosure - I have neither product, have nothing to do with either company, so have no axe to grind...
Yes, I am debating which to buy right now, however I've seen much more on the engineering side on killerb's part (schematics and detailed explanations) plus they are on the forums much more from what I've seen.

I'm not knocking Covert at all though and I'm sure their pickup works great (sure is pretty) however it'd be nice if they had a website that was easier to find (still haven't found it, if it exists).

To tell the truth I'm probably going to go with a killerb baffle and run the covert pickup.
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrowfulkiller View Post
I wish you guys at killerbmotorsports made an economy version.
We've thought about it, but don't want to make compromises in materials, form, fit or function. Which you'd have to do to bring down the cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sorrowfulkiller View Post
To tell the truth I'm probably going to go with a killerb baffle and run the covert pickup.
These parts may not be compatible. We've not test fit them.
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Old 07-03-2011, 08:18 PM   #22
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I'm running a killer b pickup, windage tray and ordered there pan today

killer b products work.. plain and simple I know of a few top end race teams using their products and having great results with then

look what's being used and in what circumstances and see what works

I see killer b working, that's why i chose to go with them

Killer b, sending you a pm
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Old 07-03-2011, 08:43 PM   #23
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My hybrid build is still on the OEM ej205 oiling system (except for the pump). Once I've got the money I'm getting the KillerB ultimate pickup, KillerB baffle, and a STi pan.


Until then I'm keeping a close eye on my oil pressure gauge..
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:49 PM   #24
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Killer b has helped me through some issues so +1000 for them. Cool people
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