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Old 07-07-2011, 10:20 PM   #1
delongedoug
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Default 2011 Formula 1 - Round 9: British Grand Prix 2011, Silverstone

What in the hell's going on in here where the n00b has to make the thread just a few hours before P1? Hopefully I got everything correct...



Race Date: 10 Jul 2011
Circuit Name: Silverstone
Number of Laps: 52
Circuit Length: 5.891 km
Race Distance: 306.227 km
Lap Record: 1:30.874 - F Alonso (2010)
Last Years Winner: Mark Webber

Ricciardo's first race. Off throttle blown diffuser ban in effect. Will KERS ever work for Webber? Dun dun dunnnnnnn
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:33 PM   #2
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Its going to be so weird not having Copse be the first turn...and another reminder that this is one of the Fox races
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:00 PM   #3
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bizzare that the DRS is not on the long straight.

It would also seem that pitting should be short and sweet here.
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:34 PM   #4
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also wondering if (the lack of interest) is because everyone hates this race, the fox coverage, or summer indifference.
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:38 PM   #5
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oh hello, it seems as if Renault engines are allowed 50% off throttle, and Mercedes a similar system


Quote:
Red Bull Racing has been handed a late boost in its hopes of minimising the performance loss caused by the ban on the off-throttle use of blown diffusers, after the FIA agreed to an 11th-hour concession on how it uses its Renault power unit.

Amid ongoing discussions between engine manufacturers and the governing body about how much teams are allowed to continue blowing their exhausts, Red Bull Racing's supplier Renault has been allowed to keep 50 per cent of its exhaust flow when the driver is off throttle because of reliability reasons.

The original intention had been to limit teams to just 10 per cent - but that was then increased marginally to 20 per cent at 18,000rpm after preliminary discussions with teams.

However, following lobbying from Renault, the engine manufacturer argued that it needed even more throttle use for engine reliability related to the exhaust valves.

The new limit was agreed as late as Friday morning, and it counters a concession handed to rival Mercedes-Benz ahead of Silverstone - which has been allowed to keep firing half its cylinders as engine over run in a bid to ease crank case pressure.

The FIA's decision has provided a dramatic twist to the blown diffuser saga, and could have significant implications on the competitive order because it is understood that Red Bull Racing had only been running at 45 per cent throttle flow before the rules clarification was made by the FIA.

In the wake of teams being informed about the concession to Renault during first practice, Red Bull Racing team principal and McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh clashed in public during Friday's FIA press conference at Silverstone.

Both believe they were being handicapped by the FIA's ruling on their opposition - with Horner adamant Mercedes-Benz was benefiting from the over-run, while Whitmarsh was sure Red Bull Racing would be helped by the 50 per cent allowance.

Horner said: "There was a technical directive which effectively turned it all off. That was obviously with reticence by the manufacturers and it has been very much a manufacture issue.

"Certain teams were then allowed to have fired overrun, to fuel their overrun, of which there are also, obviously, secondary benefits through the exhaust plumes and thrusts that that creates, But that was permitted."

He added: "It would be unfair to allow fire overrun and not allow the same parameters for another engine manufacturer. I think it's a very very difficult job for the FIA to pick their way through this and I think all credit to them, they've looked to try and be as fair, balanced and equitable as they decreed that they would be through the technical directive, to come up with the solutions that they have.

"We're not totally happy with the solution that we have, that's for sure. I'm sure Martin isn't with his and I'm sure there are a lot of conspiracies in the paddock that these are the reasons why Red Bull is performing or McLaren is performing, or some cars aren't performing. That's just circumstantial at the end of the day. The fundamentals are that the engine manufacturers have been treated in a fair and equitable manner."

Whitmarsh responded: "When the goalposts are moving partway through a practice session, then I think it makes it quite difficult. I think that with the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better to make changes at year end which I think Christian would agree.

"I think that to do this and to do it a fairly cloudy and ambiguous and changing way inevitably, in a competitive environment, every team feels that it's been hard done by. At the moment, I think potentially a lot of teams will end up making an argument to cold blow. Renault have been in that domain for some time, other teams haven't and don't have that experience but we're talking about a very substantial performance benefit here..."

He added: "It's messy and I think the intention people believed was that we were going to stop exhaust blowing when the driver didn't have his foot on the throttle. I think that was the simple concept but that concept has been deflected and therefore it hasn't been clear. And the fact that these things were only coming out during the course of today is fairly extraordinary.

"But nonetheless, I'm sure we will remain calm and pick our way through but I think it's probably better to make changes to the regulations between seasons, not in season and also make changes to regulations which are clear and unambiguous.

"I think at the moment, a lot of people are clearly getting emotional about the situation and I can understand why: it's frustrating for the engineers not to know what it is that we're allowed to do, because these changes... by cold blowing you're getting 30, 40 points of extra rear downforce in braking and that's quite an attractive thing so if you can do it, then you're going to try and do it aren't you?"

Renault team principal Eric Boullier said that it would be almost impossible for the FIA to please all the manufacturers and ensure that no single team was given an advantage.

"I think if Charlie tries to please every engine manufacturer it will be very difficult to make a level playing field," he said when asked by AUTOSPORT about the situation.

The matter was discussed at length in the drivers' briefing, with several drivers unhappy about the 50 per cent limit being introduced mid-session.

FIA technical delegate Charlie Whiting is meeting with the engine manufacturers tonight to discuss the situation.

Mercedes GP team principal Ross Brawn said in the build-up to the British Grand Prix that he hoped the FIA allowances would not benefit an individual engine manufacturer, but said there was a chance it could.

"It is possible," he explained. "I think the FIA is aware of that. Even referencing the old engine maps, if they see some things which are contrary to what they want to achieve, so if for some other reason people were using engine maps in 2009 with a lot of throttle opening, then the FIA will still ask for some explanation of why they are doing it.

"But it is not likely people were doing it because it does use more fuel and does create heat in the system, so you would not do it unless there was some benefit."
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Old 07-08-2011, 02:35 PM   #6
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So... the track hasn't changed, just where the start/finish line and the pits are?
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:00 PM   #7
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Question: How long have the engine designs been frozen in F1? Meaning, haven't Renault and MB engines been pretty constant in their design for a few years?

Blown exhaust/diffusers are relatively new. But suddenly limiting them to only 10% blowing, means Renaults are going to eat valves, and the MB is going to have excessive crankcase pressure. What happened two-three years ago when they didn't have the blown exhaust/diffusers?
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:07 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
also wondering if (the lack of interest) is because everyone hates this race, the fox coverage, or summer indifference.
Summer I think, no ones really posted in the normal thread either. I figured people were sick of me posting news items trying to get some good conversation in too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draken View Post
Question: How long have the engine designs been frozen in F1? Meaning, haven't Renault and MB engines been pretty constant in their design for a few years?

Blown exhaust/diffusers are relatively new. But suddenly limiting them to only 10% blowing, means Renaults are going to eat valves, and the MB is going to have excessive crankcase pressure. What happened two-three years ago when they didn't have the blown exhaust/diffusers?
They've been frozen since 2007. But as we know, the teams were still allowed to modify them. It wasn't a true engine freeze, which is pretty ridiculous.
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Old 07-08-2011, 06:25 PM   #9
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Bunch of tweets from Scarb about the ruling. And ananlysis from him, http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2011/0...full-analysis/. Renault and Mercedes were allowed to go back to levels they used in 09...I'm just not sure why the FIA didn't just say 'whoops, we didn't know it would be this tough, lets just wait till years end.'
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:36 PM   #10
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Yep, I obviously really don't like this mid-season stuff, let alone mid-race weekend rule changes, revisions and case by case analysis that greatly affect the performance of the cars. Quit fiddling.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:44 PM   #11
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So after making complete idiots of themselves (allowing some teams to use it, then saying 'oh hai, actually only a few can') the FIA is now saying that if everyone agrees they'll go back to what was run two weeks ago. I'm not trying to be cynical, but are they thinking anything through? It started with Bahrain where they showed they really don't know the rules at all, I wonder what they'll do next.
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Old 07-09-2011, 07:15 PM   #12
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yeah, it's pretty silly. i understand a mid-season rules change for safety reasons, but this doesn't make any sense at all. when you combine a rule that says they have to change how their engines work, and try to apply that in a season when they already have a freeze on engine development... what?
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:37 PM   #13
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none the less, redbulls on top

Great Job on Webbers part, good for him, must be frustrating to be runner up, pretty much all of the time

perhaps they might run into problems with their reliability, but we shall wait and see..
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:12 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Onemanparty View Post

perhaps they might run into problems with their reliability, but we shall wait and see..
Maybe but they've been pretty solid with their reliability this year barring the KERS problems which hasn't seemed to hold them back too much so far.

Unfortunately for the non RBR fans its seems they almost have the season under wraps already as none of the teams have been able to solidly perform on their level so far.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:26 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by elirentz View Post
Maybe but they've been pretty solid with their reliability this year barring the KERS problems which hasn't seemed to hold them back too much so far.

Unfortunately for the non RBR fans its seems they almost have the season under wraps already as none of the teams have been able to solidly perform on their level so far.

Didn't their request to up their throttle to 50% to cool down their engines get turned down?

Or was I fed Varshas lies..?
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:29 AM   #16
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^ yeah it's great to see webber on pole again! surprised to see hamilton way back. but there's a chance for rain, so i'll be expecting to see him move up fast. and on that note, you're right, the redbulls seem to be the only team that's consistently on top, so they're just gapping the rest of the teams.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:31 AM   #17
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oh it got rejected? huh. i can't keep track of the rules anymore. ...and i guess varsha's commentary isn't helping.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBeck View Post
So after making complete idiots of themselves (allowing some teams to use it, then saying 'oh hai, actually only a few can') the FIA is now saying that if everyone agrees they'll go back to what was run two weeks ago. I'm not trying to be cynical, but are they thinking anything through? It started with Bahrain where they showed they really don't know the rules at all, I wonder what they'll do next.
I hope they decide to just go back to what they were running before. It's a shame McLaren's qualifying was compromised (at least partially) by yesterday's changes, though.
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onemanparty View Post
Didn't their request to up their throttle to 50% to cool down their engines get turned down?

Or was I fed Varshas lies..?
No, as much as in pains me to say for once Varsha was correct. I don't watch the US broadcast so I don't know what info he included but they're thinking of reverting the rule change before the German GP.

I just realized you were talking just about this race and not the whole season. One day I'll learn to not post after cocktails I agree it will be interesting to see if their reliability is hurt by the change.

IMO non-safety related rule changes mid-season is a terrible idea and looks bad for the FIA. Rule clarifications, fine, but a couple of teams were doing similar things last year. So why didn't they change the rule during the off season if they didn't like it?
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:34 AM   #20
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What a race!
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:23 AM   #21
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Well the RBR facebook page has been flooded with disapproving messages from Webber fans after the team orders to not overtake.
Over 1700 messages posted since the end of the race :P

http://www.facebook.com/redbullracing
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:53 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onemanparty View Post
Didn't their request to up their throttle to 50% to cool down their engines get turned down?

Or was I fed Varshas lies..?
Varsha was right. The ruling on Friday was that it was allowed, then on Saturday it wasn't allowed. Now they've agreed to go back to what it was.

Pretty great race, good to see Alonso finally get a result, and I'm not sure why RBR asked for Webber to hold back. From Webber's response, he didn't adhere to it, which is good. Team orders aren't banned this year right...nm, according to Buxton they are.

Also have no idea why Matchett didn't believe Will when he said it wasn't an engine failure.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:08 PM   #23
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Wow, Mclaren really dropping the ball with gambling on fuel weights, disappointed with RBR giving team orders.
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Old 07-10-2011, 03:57 PM   #24
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great race! i'm also very disappointed to hear the rbr team orders though. they don't need to do that - webber is 80 points behind vettel!
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Old 07-10-2011, 04:19 PM   #25
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Apparently the call was for team points, not drivers, that if Webber was in the lead they would tell them the same thing, but we'll have to see if it actually happens that way.
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