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Old 07-27-2002, 01:09 AM   #1
BIGSKYWRX
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Default Wilwood 4 pot vs Subaru 4 pot

Looking for any input one may have comparing these two options. What I have come up w/ thus far:

1) the Wilwood dynalites (w/ a perrin bracket) will fit the wrx oe (6.5") wheel, the Subaru won't (although someone thought a simple 3mm spacer would allow for it).

2) the Wilwood is lighter (billet) ~ 2.5 lbs, not sure on weight of Subaru-anyone?

3) pad selection, while Wilwood has some choices- my first choice (Endless) is not available, but is four Subaru

4) price- $599 for Wilwood, includes calipers, ss lines, pads and bracket
-$635 for Subaru, includes calipers, pads

What about performance between the two? There was a formula to calculate clamping force if piston diameters were known- I think.

Any input welcome.

Thanks

Big Sky
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Old 07-27-2002, 02:07 AM   #2
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Default Here's what I know.

The Wilwoods are light. I think they weigh less than two pounds. The Subaru calipers are heavy. 10 pounds? I don't know but they felt like they were made of lead. From what I've read, the Wilwoods have bigger pistons than the Subarus. But the Subarus are OEM. The Wilwoods definately fit 16" wheels. Biggest reason I went with them. Lastly there are two different Wilwoods, the billet, and cast. The cast is supposed to be quieter and stronger. It's a little heavier.

San
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Old 07-27-2002, 02:50 AM   #3
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subaru 4pots let you run certain 15" rally rims.. don't believe the wilwoods will fit (could be wrong)...
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Old 07-27-2002, 03:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by travmn
subaru 4pots let you run certain 15" rally rims.. don't believe the wilwoods will fit (could be wrong)...
There's only one way to find out!

Maybe two. Anybody have the dimensions of both the OEM 4-pots and Wilwood 4-pots?

I'd love to run 4-pots up front - I've got 17" Subzeros (supposedly clear the OEM 4-pots) and 15" Speedline 2118s which also are suppose to clear the 4-pots.

LaterZ!
Darren!!
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Old 07-27-2002, 11:50 AM   #5
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oldmansan,

I also read the cast being quieter- queiter in what way? Do you have yours on yet? Are they noisy?

Penphoe,

I'm guessing the Wilwoods must be a little smaller (than Subaru) to clear our 6.5 rims, thus any 15' wheel that can clear Subaru's 4 pots should clear the Wilwoods.

I'll see if I can find exact weights on the Subaru 4 pots, Wilwood dyanalites in billet and cast. It would be nice to shave a little unsprung weight w/ a brake upgrade if possible. I'll see if I can't find piston diameters also.

Big Sky
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Old 07-27-2002, 12:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by BIGSKYWRX

I'm guessing the Wilwoods must be a little smaller (than Subaru) to clear our 6.5 rims, thus any 15' wheel that can clear Subaru's 4 pots should clear the Wilwoods.
thats nice in theory and all but the stock wrx wheels don't fit under the subaru 4 pots... so i'd really wait for someone to try on the wheels first.

assumption is baaaad
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Old 07-27-2002, 01:15 PM   #7
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Thus my "guess" and "should", but based on 6.5 won't clear Subaru 4 pots and Wilwoods will (must be smaller) and 15" wheels that will clear Subaru 4 pots, I'll stand by my "guess" that these 15" wheels that clear Subaru 4 pots "should" clear the smaller Wilwood 4 pots. But will concede it is an assumption (and we all know about assumptions ).

From Wilwood's site- dynalite billet weighs 2.5 lbs (man that is light)
dynalite II's (near as I can tell this is there cast version) weigh 2.7 lbs (man that is really light for cast-if it is cast?)

Also the dynalite II's are about $30 cheaper vs the billet (~$110/each vs ~$140/each).

Both use 1.75" bores.

Not finding a lot about the Subaru 4 pots. Weight (heavy???), weigh about the same as oe 2 pot (couldn't find weights of these either).

Bore size (Subaru) ~ 1.5" (that was someone's approximation- somewhere that info should be around- as well as weight)

I'm curious if the dynalite II is there cast version- anyone know?
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Old 07-27-2002, 01:45 PM   #8
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The Wilwoods are thinner, which is how they clear the 6.5" wheels. Note that the pads are kinda thin too, I assume this is at least part of how they are thinner.

Just because they are thinner doesn't mean they are smaller in the dimension that would matter for fitting 15" rims, the height. I wouldn't make that assumption. Just comparing other Wilwood calipers at their site, you can see that the Dynalite is one of the tallest calipers they make, even the 6 pot Superlite requires less room between the rotor and the wheel.

The Wilwoods have a considerably larger piston, which means there is more clamping force than the Subaru 4 pots. This will also mean more fluid between you and the pads, which may actually increase your pedal travel and/or feeling of mushiness.

4 pots are closer to stock piston diameter (~1.62") and the Dynalites are cloaser to 1.75" , resulting in an almost 20% larger piston area.

Keep in mind that more piston area/clamping force is not always better. Big brake kits like the AP Racing 4 pots and 6 pots and the Wilwood 6 pots actually have less clamping force/piston area than the stock calipers, though they have slightly larger rotors to make the total brake torque very close to stock. There must be some reason for doing so, I suspect at least one reason is proper ABS operation after reading this:

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/...ake_122701.htm

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Wilwoods make more noise, those are racing calipers with about zero consideration for how much noise they would make when they were designed.

The Subaru 4 pots are cast iron (heavy) figure on very little weight change from stock brakes. Mine make a VERY slight amount of noise at low speeds.

There are plusses and minuses each way. I have Subaru 4 pots, but then I got a pretty good deal from a guy in the UK who was selling his stockers with less than 1000km on them, which significantly skewed the price part of the comparison.

Last edited by Concillian; 07-27-2002 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 07-27-2002, 02:48 PM   #9
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The reason the stock wheels don't fit over the 4-pots is due to how far the caliper sticks out. The portion on the outside of the rotor hits the spokes on the wheel. If you shaved off the "Subaru" it may fit, but I doubt it. The stock calipers don't fit the 15" wheels because they are too wide from right to left. It causes the caliper to rub on the actual inside of the wheel. The 4-pots are much narrower in that respect and don't have that problem. On my 2118s they BARELY clear the spokes, I'd say there is like 1-2mm of clearance at the most.

Ok I went out and measured the 4-pots (as well as I could with the wheels on) and it looks like they are about 8.5" long. This largest length on the 4-pots is the middle of the caliper. From the dynalites page it looks like the caliper is 7" long at it's longest point which is on the outside. The radius of clearance is the same whether it's in the middle or not. The 4-pots are about 3" wide, the dynalites look to be about the same.

I'm not going to say 100% certain they would fit, but I don't see how they wouldn't.


On a versus note, the only reason I see to go with the Subaru 4-pots is pad selection, which is a big thing. They are the same as 300ZX pads so you can find virtually any model of aftermarket pad for them.
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Old 07-27-2002, 03:32 PM   #10
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Default BIGSKYWRX,

the Wilwoods I put on sure didn't feel like 2.5 lbs. I and my friend (Subaru mechanic) were amazed at how light they were. Stupid light! Something's making noise, but could be my coilovers. I find the pads a little noisy when hot, but they're still fairly new. You will feel a difference in pedal feel, it will be much stiffer and not mushy like stock.

San
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Old 07-27-2002, 04:08 PM   #11
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I feel sure you can get the Subaru 4 pots fr less then $635
My two cents,good info here guys.
Thanks
Rudy
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Old 07-27-2002, 05:00 PM   #12
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dwx,

Couple of questions. Seeing you have the Subaru 4 pots, would you get the Wilwoods if you had to do it over? Second, I've heard that a simple 3mm spacer (w/ oe 6.5 rims) would give a enough room to clear the Subaru 4 pots, any thoughts on that?

Concillian,

Thanks for the additional facts. Is it common to find used 4 pots out of England?


Noise will definitely be a factor for me (actually my wife) as will pad selection-good to know on the 300ZX angle.

Anyone on the dynalite II's- is this a cast version?

$635 was at subaruparts.com, anybody know of a better deal?


Big Sky
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Old 07-27-2002, 05:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by BIGSKYWRX

$635 was at subaruparts.com, anybody know of a better deal?


Big Sky
$580 from www.subaruwrxparts.com

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Old 07-27-2002, 09:33 PM   #14
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Lisa aka Sugar at Troncalli Subaru has em fr right around $550 i think.
Im with you on this one Big Sky ,I want the better brakes,but would also like to keep the stock rims and tires as my winter setup.
I myself would like to stay oem,so im leaning to the Subaru 4 pots,,,Spacers?? anybody got that answer??
Rudy
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Old 07-27-2002, 09:55 PM   #15
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I was told a 3mm spacer would do the trick, still rather tight but doable. I see H&R makes a fancy billet 5mm spacer, fairly costly however. The 3mm (or 5mm) steel ones are real cheap ~ $5. This was second hand, it would be nice to visit w/ someone w/ this setup. I'm pretty sure w/ 3 or 5mm spacers stud length wouldn't be an issue.

It would be nice to know if this is a viable option.

The price keeps dropping on the Subaru 4 pots .

Big Sky
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Old 07-27-2002, 11:38 PM   #16
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Default just for clarification

The $580 mentioned above at subaruwrxparts.com includes calipers and pads.

The $550 at Troncalli is for the calipers alone. They charge $140 for the pads. However they are currently running a "group buy" for the calipers and pads at $575.

subysouth
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Old 07-27-2002, 11:51 PM   #17
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BIGSKY-

Yes it is common to find Subaru 4-pots for sale in the UK. These calipers are OEM on some Imprezas over there, and a lot of enthusiasts swap them out for upgrades, just like we do. So, shipping notwithstanding, yeah I bet you could get a good deal on something used. Check out www.sidc.co.uk or www.scoobynet.co.uk ... see what comes up.

subysouth-

Yup, Exeter Subaru in NH (www.subaruwrxparts.com) is about the best there is, for prices. I'm a very privileged monkey for having lived so close to them. Hopefully when we move out of Iowa in late October, we'll be back close to there again.

Not just for Exeter, of course. NH in general, and NESIC.
I miss my guys!

-S2-
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Old 07-28-2002, 02:28 AM   #18
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Shipping from the UK isn't THAT bad, I paid $50 shipping for the calipers and pads, not so bad considering the distance and the weight.
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Old 07-28-2002, 04:40 AM   #19
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Default hmmmm

To answer the above question the Dynalite II caliper is a cast caliper and it is 2.7 pounds. Here's a pic off the website:

subysouth
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Old 07-28-2002, 04:45 AM   #20
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Default for comparison

The Dynalite Billet caliper included in the Alta, Nino, etc. kits:

subysouth

edit: Its 2.5 pounds. The pics are one back one front unfortunately, I wonder if the mounting points are the same distance. If so the Perrin adapter should work with the cast Dynalite II.

Last edited by subysouth; 07-28-2002 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 07-28-2002, 05:10 AM   #21
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Default ok and now....

A side by side on the two options in question:

Wilwood/Perrin kit:

Subaru 22b/4-po4 close-up:
I bogarted Benjamin Tang's JDM pic.

Assuming it to be fact, that the lower mounting holes on the Perrin adapter and the two mounting holes on the 22b caliper are the same distance apart, you can see the Subaru caliper is significantly larger than the Wilwood caliper.

HTH

subysouth

I wonder how heavy that 4-pot caliper really is?
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Old 07-28-2002, 01:44 PM   #22
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I've heard some people mention in the past that Wilwoods, being purely designed for race/track use, don't handle "real-world" conditions very well. I've heard it said that they only have single seal on the pistons and no dust seal, that the potential for corrosion and leakage if driven in rain and snow is great. I don't know for sure if that is true. But seeing as the original poster hails form Big Sky Country, it would be an issue worth researching. IMHO, the OE caliper, being designed for daily-use cars in all kinds of weather, would be a better choice for road use.
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Old 07-28-2002, 02:15 PM   #23
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I'm getting the subaru 4 pots even though my winter tires are the stock ones. I have given up on finding RS wheels anywhere, and I odn't want to have to buy *another* set of Rotas, so I will swap back to the stock calipers in the winter when I swap over to snow tires/rims. It's only twice a year, that's not so bad.
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Old 07-28-2002, 04:34 PM   #24
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I can vouch for the fact that the Subaru 4-pots sail through winter just fine, even those vicious Chicago ones. I bought some Sport Edition Fox 5s in 16x7 for winter wheels, which clear the 4-pots just fine.

Kevin
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Old 07-29-2002, 09:24 PM   #25
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Thumbs up Brake decision here

Big Sky , i have been following your thread on brakes as well as others. Am going to do a change on my brakes after I get my DMS 's on ( hope this coming weekend ). I going to go with Subie 4 pods because of better sealing in bad wheather and a better choice of pads. along with Kangaroo Paws for rotors ( I like the Aluminium hats for better cooling of bearings and seals ), ss lines , Porterfields or Endless for pads, some Motul for fuild and throw on some speed bleeders. Would probaby keep stock binders if I could get 2 piece rotors for them. Does anyone know of any? Thanks for your thread it helped alot, as always you bring out useful info.

Joe
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