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Old 07-21-2011, 08:17 AM   #1
sebtarta
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Default 2011 Formula 1 - Round 10: German GP 2011, Nürburgring

2011 Formula 1 - Round 10: German GP 2011, Nürburgring
This year the Hockenheim circuit takes a break.



Chandock is replacing Trulli for the German GP
Weather forecast is calling for rain during the race on Sunday
Renault is considering rear facing exhaust
A large supermarket chain is the main sponser for RBR at the German GP



The famous radio - "Fernando is faster than you"
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:22 AM   #2
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Massa won't be as pissed this time around... (but he might be fighting for 3rd place). Smedley is the coolest on the pit wall "I need the white visor", "Felipe Baby, Stay Cool"...

Should be a good race, rain makes it fun this year and changes the tire strategy in a good way.

IB: Hamilton crashes or loses an engine or transmission, One or both of the Force Indias does well, Renault stays in the mid-pack, Vettel and Webber again vie for poal with Alonso biting at heels.
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:55 AM   #3
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nice, glad to see chandhok back.
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:53 AM   #4
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I'm not sure we'll see rain, but you never know. If it still is forecast on Saturday, I'll believe it. Good to see Chandhok back, I wonder if he'll keep the seat, minimum he should be back for the Indian GP.
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Old 07-21-2011, 12:45 PM   #5
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I think that is probably why they have Chandok racing this weekend. To get used to the car and all for the Indian GP.

Also it looks like Trulli could be safe for next year, Lotus in talks to extend Trulli's deal

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Old 07-21-2011, 12:48 PM   #6
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I know Michael thinks of Germany as being home turf but marking your Mercedes W196 Streamliner is a little much...

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Old 07-21-2011, 03:28 PM   #7
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hmm... if the blown diffusers are allowed again, i wonder why the renaults are running a rear exiting exhaust.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
hmm... if the blown diffusers are allowed again, i wonder why the renaults are running a rear exiting exhaust.
I tend to live in OT around here and I follow F1 pretty close so I can't tell if your post is a troll. OT has me assuming every post has at least a double-backhanded meaning.

Let me tackle your post one thing at a time.

a) Blown "double" diffusers are not allowed but blown diffusers are (depending on the definition). The diffuser is the part on the back of the car which changes airflow from the floor to the open back end. There are venturi plates (or whatever those fins are called) directing the air rearward and the reduction in pressure at the diffuser is what "generates" most of the non-mechanical (aerodynamic) downforce on an F1 car.

Double diffusers were created back in 2009 when rules changes to aero specifications caused the ex-Honda team (Brawn GP, now Mercedes GP) to come up with the great idea of subverting the limit on size of rear diffuser by having a split level and directing air that otherwise would have gone around or over the car through what is really the interior of the back end and out through the 2nd level of the diffuser, increasing downforce over the rivals... These 2 level diffusers are still banned.

For examples, here is a Subaru and a Toyota showing the diffuser under the back of the car as a black device with fins sticking out (plastic for Subaru, carbon-fiber for Toyota).



b) The recent mid-season rule changes that kicked in for the Silverstone British Grand Prix 2 weeks ago were affecting limitations of off-throttle exhaust airflow and indirectly would remove most of the benefit of the forward directed engine exhaust which teams such as Renault had pioneered at the start of this season. It gets more complicated than that, in that the FIA reinstated rules to several teams and then backpedaled again with regard to the restriction on blown exhaust so that now the rule is - only 10% of the total exhaust airflow can pass through an engine when the engine is not firing.

It used to be that teams (engine manufacturers actually) would set it up so that the pistons would pump air in the intake and out the exhaust even when the engine wasn't firing so that it helped to cool the engine and also generate downforce via the forward exhaust ducting (air would act as a curtain along the sides of the car keeping pressure reduced under the actual car, yeah science and non-laminar flow gets weird at 300km/hr). So that means that the "cold" airflow was set at 10% of the level and off-throttle "hot" exhaust airflow was still banned. Renaults design focused on advantages from the hot method and hence were (according to some pundits) affected more than the other teams. As you know drivers lift off the throttle before braking for the corner and resume throttle part ways through the corner.

So the FIA had talked with different teams and changed the rules so that some teams could allow greater than 10% off-throttle exhaust as the teams had claimed they needed more than 10% to help save the reliability of the engine which they had designed over the winter with extra airflow in mind (not 100% true since there has been an engine freeze since 2006 but engine mapping can still be changed). So now its a schmozzle and the rules will likely be changed again within the next couple of races. Admittedly - I don't get how the cornering-speed advantage by sending fuel into the combustion chamber at 7-18,000 rpm and having the engine heat cause ignition doesn't increase fuel-consumption by more than the advantage gained (cars gotta carry most of that extra fuel a % of the entire distance) and I don't understand how it doesn't cause knock or other engine issues... I guess thats why I don't work at Ferrari.

c) The upcoming rule changes for 2012 (designed by FIA, but not yet approved by FOTA as far as I know) have a rule that says engine exhausts must be behind the rear wheels, be directed at a certain angle (facing back) and of a certain length... That rule hasn't kicked in yet and is meant to subvert more of this mid-season off-throttle downforce foolishness.

This weekend should be a good race. Rain is expected so tire strategy will be more and less of a factor (don't need to save primes during quali but might need to manage inters or choose carefully for race-start) and the Nurburgring is always a decent race.

Don't think I am picking on you, just trying to help explain it... The really cool part about F1 is that technology and silly ideas are always changing. Last year McLaren had the great idea of taking air from the front of the car and directing it through the car and using it to stall the downforce from the rear-wing. Now those F-ducts are banned but for the first half-dozen races it was cool to learn about how teams used their knee or back of their glove to block air during the straight sections of track... Same with KERS in 2008 when it was unreliable and to a lesser degree this year as well. Brake manufacturers keep making improvements, materials engineering makes for stronger lighter parts, safety regs mean certain things can get changed in a cool way (Mercedes dual air-intake for example).

If you read all that, then watch practice session #2 on SpeedTV tomorrow, then watch F1 Debrief Friday night, then watch qualifying on Saturday and the race on Sunday and after 10 years you'll have half an idea about the sport. It sure beats NASCAR.

CN: Wall o' text saying right now F1 rules are up in the air pardon the pun...
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:53 PM   #9
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woah. that's a hell of a response. yes, i know what a diffuser is. and i too, have been following f1 for the last 10 years. i'm still curious why renault changed their exhaust exit to the rear if they were allowed to revert back to the rules from earlier in the season, (minus the single engine map rule from quali to race). but admittedly, i'm thrown by the constant scrambling of the rules from race to race.

but thanks for writing such a thorough response. no offense taken here.
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Old 07-21-2011, 11:05 PM   #10
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I've only been watching since 2006/2007.

I heard about Renault going directly from the forward exit exhaust to the rear exit and the reason given (wherever I read it, credibility prob near zero) was that they wanted to get ready for next season and avoid all possible rule infractions with their current design. The article went on to say that they had already put focus on the 2012 car. Now that doesnt really make 100% sense as aero drag costs time and time in F1 is $$ and Renault aren't exactly the smallest team out there but I guess with no hot bypass air they needed to make changes... They surely ain't giving up (on what was to be a good thing for them this season) for no reason.

I just wonder how fast Kubica would have been in Australia and for the first few races this year had he not had the rally accident as the Renault was fast. But Robert is improving and might be back next year. Seeing the pics and video of Massa's and Kubica incidents it AMAZES me that they are both still alive and almost healthy as humanly possible but I guess its a testament to their fitness level and skill and luck.
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:15 AM   #11
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Someone from OT should know that nobody is going to read all of that. And how are the rules up in the air? What part of "All cars will run under 'Valencia' conditions for the remainder of the season" is difficult to understand?

Holy hell that was one of the most condescending posts I've ever read. It is literally painful to read. I'm surprised we didn't get a lesson on how the internal combustion engine works.
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowTraveller View Post
If you read all that, then watch practice session #2 on SpeedTV tomorrow, then watch F1 Debrief Friday night, then watch qualifying on Saturday and the race on Sunday and after 10 years you'll have half an idea about the sport. It sure beats NASCAR.
Wow... condescending dickhead much?
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:01 AM   #13
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For the ones wondering about Renault and the exhaust.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...cing-exhausts/

Quote:
Renault may switch from their radical forward-pointing exhaust system to a more conventional rear-pointing method, Eric Boullier has revealed. A number of updates will be rolled out for this weekend’s German Grand Prix as the Enstone-based team strives to retake fourth place in the Constructors’ Championship.

After grabbing fourth overall from Mercedes GP in Valencia, the German team retook the position last time out at Silverstone. Boullier, however, remains highly optimistic that the Renaults of Nick Heidfeld and Vitaly Petrov can prevail.

Renault sits fifth overall, behind Mercedes GP
Renault sits fifth overall, behind Mercedes GP

“Yes, we most certainly can,” the French Team Principal comments. “There will be some upgrades on the car which will help considerably. Also, on the race team side, we must not miss any opportunity that we are provided with.

“We know we haven’t been fast enough recently but, with the hard work we are all putting in, it will get better. It has to get better.

“We definitely need to catch up with Mercedes GP, who have overtaken us into fourth spot in the Constructors’ Championship which, with our pace, is the target this year.”

He went on to explain that his cars’ exhausts could be modified:

“We can make some considerable technical changes and we may also use a reverse exhaust system; this is something we still have to evaluate. There is a lot to look at, but we must make some positive steps in the next two races.”
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:08 AM   #14
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So far, Renault are using forward blown on one car (currently Petrov) and rear-facing on the other (currently Heidfeld). They'll slap the forward one on before parc-ferme tho and open-minded stuff like that is part of what makes this sport fun.

Edit: and now they are pulling the new exhaust off Heidfelds car... I guess that idea will be binned or left for later on.

Last edited by FellowTraveller; 07-22-2011 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 07-22-2011, 10:59 AM   #15
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Well from the time sheets today it doesn't look like the Renault i benefiting from the new layout much. Obviously they must think their design is less efficient than the other teams blown diffusers despite all of the early season predictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellowTraveller View Post

Don't think I am picking on you, just trying to help explain it... The really cool part about F1 is that technology and silly ideas are always changing. Last year McLaren had the great idea of taking air from the front of the car and directing it through the car and using it to stall the downforce from the rear-wing. Now those F-ducts are banned but for the first half-dozen races it was cool to learn about how teams used their knee or back of their glove to block air during the straight sections of track... Same with KERS in 2008 when it was unreliable and to a lesser degree this year as well. Brake manufacturers keep making improvements, materials engineering makes for stronger lighter parts, safety regs mean certain things can get changed in a cool way (Mercedes dual air-intake for example).

If you read all that, then watch practice session #2 on SpeedTV tomorrow, then watch F1 Debrief Friday night, then watch qualifying on Saturday and the race on Sunday and after 10 years you'll have half an idea about the sport. It sure beats NASCAR.
Really?

Thanks for keeping us up to date

How was his post in anyway a troll? IMO your post makes you the troll as we were perfectly capable of having intelligent conversation about the sport before you came and wrote your litany of dickheadedness. I vote you go back to OT.
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Old 07-22-2011, 12:09 PM   #16
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WTF don't ruin my thread

*grouphug*
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Old 07-22-2011, 01:32 PM   #17
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Friday Practice 2

Code:
Pos  Driver                Team                   Time              Laps
 1.  Mark Webber           Red Bull-Renault       1m31.711s   	      34
 2.  Fernando Alonso       Ferrari                1m31.879s  + 0.168  38
 3.  Sebastian Vettel      Red Bull-Renault       1m32.084s  + 0.373  28
 4.  Felipe Massa          Ferrari                1m32.354s  + 0.643  36
 5.  Michael Schumacher    Mercedes               1m32.411s  + 0.700  31
 6.  Nico Rosberg          Mercedes               1m32.557s  + 0.846  32
 7.  Lewis Hamilton        McLaren-Mercedes       1m32.724s  + 1.013  28
 8.  Nick Heidfeld         Renault                1m33.098s  + 1.387  17
 9.  Vitaly Petrov         Renault                1m33.138s  + 1.427  22
10.  Adrian Sutil          Force India-Mercedes   1m33.211s  + 1.500  34
11.  Jenson Button         McLaren-Mercedes       1m33.225s  + 1.514  17
12.  Paul di Resta         Force India-Mercedes   1m33.299s  + 1.588  34
13.  Sergio Perez          Sauber-Ferrari         1m34.113s  + 2.402  34
14.  Rubens Barrichello    Williams-Cosworth      1m34.344s  + 2.633  34
15.  Jaime Alguersuari     Toro Rosso-Ferrari     1m34.487s  + 2.776  37
16.  Kamui Kobayashi       Sauber-Ferrari         1m34.491s  + 2.780  35
17.  Pastor Maldonado      Williams-Cosworth      1m34.996s  + 3.285  35
18.  Heikki Kovalainen     Lotus-Renault          1m35.753s  + 4.042  42
19.  Timo Glock            Virgin-Cosworth        1m36.940s  + 5.229  32
20.  Karun Chandhok        Lotus-Renault          1m37.248s  + 5.537  33
21.  Jerome D'Ambrosio     Virgin-Cosworth        1m37.313s  + 5.602  33
22.  Tonio Liuzzi          HRT-Cosworth           1m38.145s  + 6.434  31
23.  Daniel Ricciardo      HRT-Cosworth           1m40.737s  + 9.026   5
24.  Sebastien Buemi       Toro Rosso-Ferrari     No time              3
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Old 07-22-2011, 02:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebtarta View Post
Friday Practice 2
Anyone know what exhaust configuration the Renaults used in P2? If they are different they seem to be pretty close on the time sheet which is interesting IMO.

It seems like a relatively massive change in their design for a mid-year change since I'm sure the chassis was designed around that feature. Its funny how everyone thought that the forward exhaust was going to be this year's equivalent to Brawn's double diffuser 2 years ago. Obviously not the case now.
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Old 07-22-2011, 07:48 PM   #19
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What is happening to McLaren? They're going backwards. I should technically hold judgement till qualifying or at least FP3, but seeing them down with the Mercs is never a good sign.
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Old 07-22-2011, 09:16 PM   #20
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What is happening to McLaren? They're going backwards. I should technically hold judgement till qualifying or at least FP3, but seeing them down with the Mercs is never a good sign.
I think they take their hype too seriously. It seems whenever they expect a big push, they go backwards, and then when they don't expect anything, they'll do well. I remember last year near the end they kept on saying 'oh we're pulling out all the stops!' and other buzz words, while never really getting anywhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if they do fine in the race either. The races where they're slow on Friday they're typically okay on race day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoobZero View Post
Someone from OT should know that nobody is going to read all of that. And how are the rules up in the air? What part of "All cars will run under 'Valencia' conditions for the remainder of the season" is difficult to understand?

Holy hell that was one of the most condescending posts I've ever read. It is literally painful to read. I'm surprised we didn't get a lesson on how the internal combustion engine works.
You guys read it? I stopped after 'I don't know if its a troll' because its clear the other guy just made a spelling mistake.
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Old 07-23-2011, 12:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBeck View Post
I think they take their hype too seriously. It seems whenever they expect a big push, they go backwards, and then when they don't expect anything, they'll do well. I remember last year near the end they kept on saying 'oh we're pulling out all the stops!' and other buzz words, while never really getting anywhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if they do fine in the race either. The races where they're slow on Friday they're typically okay on race day.



You guys read it? I stopped after 'I don't know if its a troll' because its clear the other guy just made a spelling mistake.
I got to the point where I couldn't stop. It was so outrageous. My brain was stuck in this loop of "Is he really saying this, no way he's serious, he's serious, can't be, has to be, there is no way he just said that, did he just say tha.."
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Old 07-23-2011, 01:27 AM   #22
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Anyone else notice the connection section between the gp circuit and the nordschliefe is covered over with gravel to complete the trap around the last corner? Not sure why I find this interesting, just seems odd because its not something done anywhere else that Ive noticed.

Carry on...
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Old 07-23-2011, 08:17 AM   #23
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How many more races do we have on fox?
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Cravillion View Post
How many more races do we have on fox?
Pretty sure I heard them say during SPEED qualifying that this was the "fourth and final" race on FOX this year.

Oh, and booya Webber!
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Old 07-23-2011, 11:43 AM   #25
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Yep, this is the last race on Fox. Pretty good qualifying session, and it seems to continue my idea that McLaren shouldn't talk about their good chances in qualifying...and they'll do well!

Also will be interested to see if Webber gets a start tomorrow or if he messes it up once again.
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