Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday October 2, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-28-2011, 11:15 AM   #101
Spenk
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7164
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Arizona Bay
Vehicle:
2000 Miata LS
Evo Orange Mica (1/644)

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
I think the BMW 325i is the only other car(besides S2000/S2200) remotely similar to the RX-8
128i is a better comparison.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Spenk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 01:49 PM   #102
Allch Chcar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 279570
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenk View Post
128i is a better comparison.
What's the difference?

A 128i is basically a newer 325i. The RX-8 is still spitting out the same BHP as it did in '04 but now it has 200lbs more to lug around.

Except for MPG, I still think there is no comparison for the RX-8 in it's class.

Why do Sportcar mean you have to compromise Mazda? Why?
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2011, 06:56 PM   #103
HipToBeSquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 119958
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country
Vehicle:
1992 SVX LS-L

Default

1-series, like RX8, are 2+2 cars, so not small and light like a 2-seater for having the extra length, and extra interior seats.

And not practical enough to masquerade as 4-passenger daily drivers, the 1-series due to being too small for it's rear seat passengers, the RX8 for being more mechanically focused and particular for daily slogging-in-traffic duty.

I like a good 2+2, myself, but I'll freely admit that a 2-seater makes a true sports car, and a sedan makes for a more practical car.

I like a good 2+2 as a grand touring coupe, to throw coats or bags in the back seat, and be a little more relaxed and smooth. Sleeker and lower than a sedan, not as "buzzy", and noisy and hyperactive as a light sports car, both in terms of auditory noise, and vibration through the suspension.

Acceptable amounts of mass act as a damper to smooth things out, before it gets to the point of being too-massive, and dulling the response too much.

Rotaries with less latent low RPM torque are nice smooth engines for otherwise light-weight cars that don't have the mass to dampen harsh vibration anyway.

I think I'd pick a boxer piston engine for daily driving, and prefer rotary for racing and pure sports-car performance. RX8's premise is in limbo between the two. A practical body with the legs and heart of an athlete.

If it were sexier looking than it is, and I lived further south with less snow half the year, I would probably love an RX8... but for a daily slog-capable car with enough fun in reserve for the occaisions that opportunities arise, rain, shine, sleet, or snow... the SVX is a better fit for my climate, and doesn't mind handling stop and go traffic. If I were in a position to really want a Lotus elise/exige/esprit... that sort of car could use a rotary engine.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 08-28-2011 at 07:02 PM.
HipToBeSquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 12:11 PM   #104
Allch Chcar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 279570
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
1-series, like RX8, are 2+2 cars, so not small and light like a 2-seater for having the extra length, and extra interior seats.

And not practical enough to masquerade as 4-passenger daily drivers, the 1-series due to being too small for it's rear seat passengers, the RX8 for being more mechanically focused and particular for daily slogging-in-traffic duty.

I like a good 2+2, myself, but I'll freely admit that a 2-seater makes a true sports car, and a sedan makes for a more practical car.

I like a good 2+2 as a grand touring coupe, to throw coats or bags in the back seat, and be a little more relaxed and smooth. Sleeker and lower than a sedan, not as "buzzy", and noisy and hyperactive as a light sports car, both in terms of auditory noise, and vibration through the suspension.

Acceptable amounts of mass act as a damper to smooth things out, before it gets to the point of being too-massive, and dulling the response too much.

Rotaries with less latent low RPM torque are nice smooth engines for otherwise light-weight cars that don't have the mass to dampen harsh vibration anyway.

I think I'd pick a boxer piston engine for daily driving, and prefer rotary for racing and pure sports-car performance. RX8's premise is in limbo between the two. A practical body with the legs and heart of an athlete.

If it were sexier looking than it is, and I lived further south with less snow half the year, I would probably love an RX8... but for a daily slog-capable car with enough fun in reserve for the occaisions that opportunities arise, rain, shine, sleet, or snow... the SVX is a better fit for my climate, and doesn't mind handling stop and go traffic. If I were in a position to really want a Lotus elise/exige/esprit... that sort of car could use a rotary engine.
You live in Iowa Hip, I don't buy the "I lives too far north " excuse. Besides the RX-8 is a balanced and more neutral RWD. A decent set of snow tires and it'll slog through the snow until it gets too thick(oh snap).

If you don't want the manual for DD the RX-8 offers a 6spd auto with manual mode every year except the initial year(I think).

Ice racing!

and

Will my RX-8 work in ALASKA!

RX-8 you will be missed .

Last edited by Allch Chcar; 08-29-2011 at 12:13 PM. Reason: clarity
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 12:15 PM   #105
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
I think this comparison with the S2000 is technically very appropriate, but irrelevant to the future of the rotary. What I mean is, even if the rotary had the same power, torque, and fuel economy as the F20C, it still wouldn't have a viable future. We are comparing it to the form of piston engine that has become obsolete for the same reasons that will make the rotary obsolete.
Yes, the market for high strung engines isn't there anymore. Vehicles are getting heavier and high revving engines don't have the torque and fuel economy.

Quote:
Almost everyone is switching to DI turbo engines at this point. Next gen 3 series won't even have an NA I6 in the US market. And while that technology works well with piston engines at this point, we have no reason to believe that it will work equally well with the rotary, and it would be downright moronic to believe that part-time R&D by a small company like Mazda will bring the DI turbo technology for the rotary to the same level of maturity as that for the piston engines.
Rotary and piston engines have always shared the same basic type of fuel and emissions systems. A system found on a rotary can be found on a piston engine in some form. The "Same level of maturity" between rotary and piston I guess is a vague thing to pin down. Mazda has had direct injection rotary prototypes since the 80s and has had all sorts of different forced induction schemes on production rotary and piston engines.

I am puzzled as to why Mazda hasn't been pushing the downsized + turbo thing. Maybe they started on the 16X and nobody inside the company would fund them changing direction. The earliest 2 rotar engines were 1 liter engines (10A). 1 liter turbo rotary could probably achieve the same horsepower as the current Renesis with a lot more usable torque and better fuel economy. If they can keep the weight down it could compete in a straight line. It would probably drop the redline way down to about 6000-7000rpm though.

Quote:
At the end, we will never really know if it would've been possible to develop rotary technology to a point where most of the "inherent" issues would be solved. That's not how history panned out, and the technological gap between rotary and piston engines is only broadening. It is inevitable that this will eventually lead to the death of rotary. If not now, then maybe ten years from now. But barring a major shift in paradigm, rotary will be dead sooner or later.
I won't disagree with this, although it is a sad conclusion.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 12:30 PM   #106
Allch Chcar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 279570
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Default

Guys, they're not killing Rotary development. They're just ending the current Rotary based car's platform, the RX-8. Remember that 2012 means the new safety standards go into effect for the US, many cars will need to be redesigned.

Mazda has committed to continue Rotary development.
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:08 PM   #107
HipToBeSquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 119958
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country
Vehicle:
1992 SVX LS-L

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
You live in Iowa Hip, I don't buy the "I lives too far north " excuse. Besides the RX-8 is a balanced and more neutral RWD. A decent set of snow tires and it'll slog through the snow until it gets too thick
Driving in winter conditions, RWD or AWD, is a slow process, not an occasion for break-neck speed, or "throwing it through the corners" as others have mentioned.

Having to rev up a rotary to get a result is counter to driving smoothly and slowly on a slick surface. It can be done, but that doesn't make it ideal. Some of us want more than merely possible.

You can buy what you want. I said it wasn't something I would want as a daily driver in my climate, which is MY preference, which I still keep.

I have a Miata, and snow tires for it. I have slogged it through 8 winters, before getting another AWD car, for winter duty, and hibernating the Miata. Don't assume that I don't know what that entails.

I would argue that Iowa and other similar latitudes in the interior of the country are actually more treacherous than colder climates.

Once it gets cold further north, it stays cold. No significant melting. Iowa gets ICE, both in forms of precipitation, and ground-cover snow re-freezing after thawing during the day, and snow melt as water runs that re-freeze into black ice later into the afternoon and evening when the sun isn't overhead. Further south, the weather doesn't do that on a daily basis. Further north, it doesn't thaw, and stays as snow-pack. Snow pack is easier to drive on that variable thaw-freeze cycles.

We may not get 50 feet of snow, that doesn't mean it is a cake walk to drive on Iowa roads in the winter, or any region that gets variable conditions on a daily basis.

I'll keep trusting torquier boxer engines, and AWD for fast or slow, steady winter duty, which is necessary for my daily-driven vehicles. rotary 2WD is fun, but belongs more on dry pavement, or crazy people doing crazy things that aren't covered by insurance, like ice racing.
HipToBeSquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:16 PM   #108
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 "Skeletor from
"He-Man"

Default

The RX-8's power delivery is very.. very smooth. Revs are just a number.. one that most drivers get wayy to hung up on.
Calamity Jesus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:20 PM   #109
scramjett
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192526
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2008 WRX FMIC/VF48
Red/Steel Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Driving in winter conditions, RWD or AWD, is a slow process, not an occasion for break-neck speed, or "throwing it through the corners" as others have mentioned.

Having to rev up a rotary to get a result is counter to driving smoothly and slowly on a slick surface. It can be done, but that doesn't make it ideal. Some of us want more than merely possible.

You can buy what you want. I said it wasn't something I would want as a daily driver in my climate, which is MY preference, which I still keep.

I have a Miata, and snow tires for it. I have slogged it through 8 winters, before getting another AWD car, for winter duty, and hibernating the Miata. Don't assume that I don't know what that entails.

I would argue that Iowa and other similar latitudes in the interior of the country are actually more treacherous than colder climates.

Once it gets cold further north, it stays cold. No significant melting. Iowa gets ICE, both in forms of precipitation, and ground-cover snow re-freezing after thawing during the day, and snow melt as water runs that re-freeze into black ice later into the afternoon and evening when the sun isn't overhead. Further south, the weather doesn't do that on a daily basis. Further north, it doesn't thaw, and stays as snow-pack. Snow pack is easier to drive on that variable thaw-freeze cycles.

We may not get 50 feet of snow, that doesn't mean it is a cake walk to drive on Iowa roads in the winter, or any region that gets variable conditions on a daily basis.

I'll keep trusting torquier boxer engines, and AWD for fast or slow, steady winter duty, which is necessary for my daily-driven vehicles. rotary 2WD is fun, but belongs more on dry pavement, or crazy people doing crazy things that aren't covered by insurance, like ice racing.
(+1 to just about everything this guy said -- cars that need to be strung out to stratospheric RPMs to get decent power out of them are lowsy winter-mobiles.)

I am really surprised that the RX-8 made it as long as it did. It's overpriced for the performance it delivers. The chassis was good from what I could tell from riding in a few of them, but totally gutless for being a purpose built sports car.

Its demise **may** mean a few more sales of Scion/Subie coupe. But its demise may also mean bad news for upcoming coupe as maybe... Just maybe, there is no market for RWD sports coupe that hasn't any power to the wheels.

Personally, I think it spells bad news for the Scion/Subie coupe as the cancellation of the RX-8 gives a good barametric reading of the market and what people are buying and not buying.
scramjett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:29 PM   #110
mikeythejew
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 141672
Join Date: Feb 2007
Vehicle:
07' wrx
Mothballed until winter

Default

I didn't read any of the reply's. My wife and I were at a Volvo dealer today and they were appraising a RX-8 that was smoking oil pretty bad.
mikeythejew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:31 PM   #111
wrx surfwagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 262719
Join Date: Nov 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut
Vehicle:
02 WRX
PSM with rust accents

Default

True, but the market for reasonably priced rwd coupes should stay solid imo. People that would have bought something more powerful as a weekend toy might downgrade because of the economy, and people south of VA will be more likely to buy one as a daily. The awd platform in general doesn't seem as popular for those states

Edit: @scramjett, someone snuck a post in in between
wrx surfwagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:44 PM   #112
Allch Chcar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 279570
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
blah blah blah
Classic Hip. Do you happen to get Epic Ice storms like Kentucky?

-1

And scramjett.
-1 for suggesting that the RX-8 is underpowered and peaky. Compared to what?
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:47 PM   #113
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

"peaky" is a very nebulous word. The Rx-8 has a relatively flat torque curve even though the actual numbers are pretty low.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:51 PM   #114
Allch Chcar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 279570
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
"peaky" is a very nebulous word. The Rx-8 has a relatively flat torque curve even though the actual numbers are pretty low.
Nebulous, I think I'll hold onto that word for today

And wouldn't peaky usually mean a small torque band ala Hondas' or Subarus' turbo cars?

Last edited by Allch Chcar; 08-29-2011 at 03:52 PM. Reason: spelling/grammar
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 03:53 PM   #115
elirentz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 70082
Join Date: Sep 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: charleston, sc
Vehicle:
2005 sti, 02 s2000
88 944 beater

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
The chassis was good from what I could tell from riding in a few of them, but totally gutless for being a purpose built sports car.
I wouldn't quite call the 13b gutless but a turbo model would be nice but even more $$$. The chassis isn't just good its superb try driving one fast the great balance combined with a nice mech LSD makes for
elirentz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #116
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
"peaky" is a very nebulous word. The Rx-8 has a relatively flat torque curve even though the actual numbers are pretty low.
Yup. 2nd and 3rd gears in the RX-8 were wonderful and usable across a wide rev range. The car really did work well on the street and at autocrosses in that regard: easy to balance, and easy to modify the balance with no turbo lag and predictable (yes low torque) output.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:03 PM   #117
aschen
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30733
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston texas
Vehicle:
2007 tiny car
striped

Default

just looked on craigslist and there are many rx8s for less than 10k . I didnt know they were That cheap. Now when does that ls swap kit become available? Maybe just pick up an ls 9 for good measure! 25k motor + 10 k car would be pretty fun. Yes I am ignoring the other 10k and year required to sort everything out....
aschen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:05 PM   #118
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
And wouldn't peaky usually mean a small torque band ala Hondas' or Subarus' turbo cars?
Serious question: would you define the torque curve below as peaky? I'm talking about the "high power" engine, the one that came on all the 6 speed manual equipped Rx-8's.

arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:20 PM   #119
Allch Chcar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 279570
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Kentucky
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
Serious question: would you define the torque curve below as peaky? I'm talking about the "high power" engine, the one that came on all the 6 speed manual equipped Rx-8's.

No, it appears that 85-90% of the peak torque is available throughout the rev range, which is 3k-8k RPMs. It gets even flatter from 6k to peak power.
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:22 PM   #120
scramjett
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192526
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2008 WRX FMIC/VF48
Red/Steel Grey

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by elirentz View Post
I wouldn't quite call the 13b gutless but a turbo model would be nice but even more $$$. The chassis isn't just good its superb try driving one fast the great balance combined with a nice mech LSD makes for
By "gutless" I mean the car doesn't exactly pull off the line from a dig. Cruising down I-96 at 110mph was quite cool to experience... But I'd actually driven a previous gen turbo RX when I worked at a stealership in the 90s, and that was awesome. Its what got me into turbo cars in the first place after being turned off by Fuego in the 80s. Call me crazy, but I like torque in my "sports" cars, hence I'm in a WRX that dynoed around 300lb-ft (yeah its not a sports car, I know).

Ok, gutless may be a bit strong, seeing as how I just got back from vacation and me and my wife were tooling around in a Chevy Aveo (the worst car I've ever driven!!!) that would meet the Webster's dictionary definition of "gutless".

But for the money of the Rx-8 I would have expected something with some torque to the wheels. The transition from the RX-7 to the RX-8 is just as much of a blunder as Ford rolling out the Mustang II after the Mach 1, or better yet, Highlander II after the original Highlander.
scramjett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:25 PM   #121
JuggernautTCW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 169223
Join Date: Jan 2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
Cruising down I-96 at 110mph was quite cool to experience
JuggernautTCW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:27 PM   #122
arghx7
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 232940
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: cold
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
But for the money of the Rx-8 I would have expected something with some torque to the wheels.
Funny, that's what I think the same thing about the outgoing M5. In both cases I think the issue is the usable-torque-to-weight ratio. If the Rx-8 weighed as much as the current gen Mx-5 it wouldn't be a big deal. Heavier cars need more torque to be fun.
arghx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 04:43 PM   #123
aschen
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 30733
Join Date: Dec 2002
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Houston texas
Vehicle:
2007 tiny car
striped

Default

Rotary is opposite of peaky that contributes to its overall feeling of "not that fast". Its peaky in the conotation that power isnt really made until high RPM. strictly speaking the torque is pretty flat which means the power is linear...i.e. not peaky.

Peaky powerplants often feel faster than they are. My o4 sti had A nice mountain of torque that came on only for the midrage and felt really fast when "punched" at 3krpm.

That is a peaky powerband even though power is made relatively low in the rev range.
aschen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 07:23 PM   #124
HipToBeSquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 119958
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country
Vehicle:
1992 SVX LS-L

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
The RX-8's power delivery is very.. very smooth. Revs are just a number.. one that most drivers get wayy to hung up on.
It revs smoothly, that is true. No dispute.

But will the car pull itself smoothly from a standing start to 10-15 miles per hour, without jerking, and without having to overshoot 10-15mph, by revving above ~2750 rpms? (and the fewer revs above idle required to ease into forward motion, the better.)

That is common driving technique on slick roads. Even my boxer turbo doesn't do it as well as my H6 does, because the boxer turbo has less compression, and fewer cylinders for torque at idle.

On a slick road, having to give the engine more throttle opening is all that much more of a risk to break traction. Once you break traction on a slick surface, you have to start all over again, and possibly re-gain control of your car's yaw rate first.

I love revs as much as the next guy. I love how smooth my H6 spins... but there are occasions in the slick, where you want low RPM torque, rather than high RPM power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
Classic Hip. Do you happen to get Epic Ice storms like Kentucky?

-1
Yes. We do get ice storms. Last winter, we got ice storms or significant snow storms, a few of them serious blizzards, every 10-14 days from thanksgiving through April. We get ice and sleet as minor precipitation quite often.

Plus we had well over 3 feet of ground-cover snow from mid december through the end of February, which melted, froze, thawed, re-froze, and re-accumulated with new snow on top of the re-freeze, usually in significant wind-blown drifts over millions of square miles of flat land with few trees to act as wind-breaks.

The further south, the more rain, and occasionally ice. The further north, the less ice, and more snow volume. I see a fair amount of BOTH, interchangeably... and sometimes within the space of a day.

I have gone to work on perfectly dry and clean pavement, only to come home through zero-visibility, with high winds blowing a sleet/snow mix that has covered the road surface in a slippery mess, in less than a half-hour after it started. Driving at no more than 30mph, or down to a crawl, depending on visibility, with 60mph cross winds on a slick road is no place to wonder if you'll have enough traction to keep you pointed in the same direction as the barely visible plow tracks that are rapidly being re-filled with snow.

Winter driving is serious stuff. But Kentucky is further south, and probably doesn't get as much of what I just described, except maybe in the mountain areas at higher elevations.

Trying to make a RWD sports/sporty car work as a serious winter car is taking a risk. Maybe not a sure-fire fail, but a certainly a higher likelihood of trouble. You can if you want, but I wouldn't go chastising others for taking their equipment choices more seriously.

I'll keep my sports car, and use it in the proper weather conditions in which the performance edge can be utilized. I would love to have a proper single-focus rotary-powered sports car for nice days.

But I'll use the more competent AWD low-RPM-capable equipment when the going gets tougher. k-thnx.
HipToBeSquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 07:25 PM   #125
shikataganai
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 92634
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Vehicle:
2007 Land Cruiser
2013 LEAF

Default

I can't fathom how you can drive an automatic when you're so picky about details.
shikataganai is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Product of the month for the armed forces!!! P&L Motorsports Inc. Vendor Announcements 3 05-18-2010 04:51 PM
P&L Motorsports, we support our troops!!!---plus the product of the month P&L Motorsports Inc. MWSOC Vendor Classifieds 1 05-12-2010 02:11 PM
Car Care product of the year: Armor All Clean & Shine Wipes AVANTI R5 Non-Subaru News & Rumors 0 10-29-2007 05:05 AM
Mazda Starts Production of the CX-9, its Second Crossover SUV for NA Market NYCshopper Non-Subaru News & Rumors 0 10-29-2006 10:55 PM
Mazda starts production of CX-7 for North American Market NYCshopper Non-Subaru News & Rumors 9 03-18-2006 07:30 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.