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Old 09-20-2011, 01:58 PM   #151
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Holy crap, I never knew I would get graded for posting
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:37 PM   #152
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I apologize for being misleaded by the whole "trophy holder" and "local event guy", as soon as I saw the post I just use the top 2 guys that fell into that category. Never even look beyond the 3rd placement.

But yes, you are right. Looking at the top 5 on pax, yes 2 out of 5 is very few and only a handful.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:56 PM   #153
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piknockout = elitist?


Huh, that's news to me. KC essentially nailed it with his response, thanks.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:19 PM   #154
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I disagree with the Elitist argument, but I don't see great significance in KC's point. Or I at least Expect him and others to be surprised by some of the competition the class will see. Tim Smith, Strano, Jim Feinberg are all winners, and they could attest to what is to be expected. How many drivers does the class need?? If 30 drivers are a mix of champions, lower level trophy winners, fast "locals only", and also-rans, I would think the racing will be good. And no I don't expect to see those particular drivers in there, but yes I believe champions (Paging Mike King) and the others will fill the class. Will it last after the people who think they are fast have their bubbles burst? I doubt it.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:35 PM   #155
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I also want to disagree with previous statements which downplayed the allure of street tires and it's contribution to the success of STR. Honestly, I could name at least 10 car owners who left CS for STR, and that number doesn't include the codrivers who came with them. And that is with tire width limitations!
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:42 PM   #156
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Was it the allure of street tires alone, or the allure of street tires + additional "streetable" mods + class full of great cars that make perfect "fun cars" to have as a 3rd car? I'll go with the latter. STR was a perfect storm of success, but street tires alone was not the only/primary factor in relation to drawing cars out of stock.

FYI, the top level guys such as Strano would only go to a class ST Stock if there were contingency there and Hoosier stopped awarding contingency. The man is a Hoosier PEZ dispenser and doesn't pay for tires now, why would he change? The top guys compete where they can get contingency and where there's great competition. If a bunch of top level competition were to show up in ST Stock, along with contingency, then maybe they could be swayed to move...but only if you take current contingency away. If you don't have to pay for tires, why run ST when you can run r-comps? Exactly. You're not stealing those from current Stock to ST Stock.

Back to my original argument, and what KC mentioned, the guys buying r-comps and getting trophies, but not high enough for contingency, will see an opportunity to reduce their budgets, have an opportunity to win, and have an opportunity to gain contingency at the same time. These guys love competition, but perhaps they're pretty sure they won't be beating Strano or Braun anytime soon. So why spend all that money unless you have it to spare or just really love running on r-comps...which is part of the draw for some people. They love the crack.

The caveat to all of this is that ,despite the fun of r-comps and being able to win them, you're car is so camber limited that you destroy tires constantly and can't win enough to cover what you kill. So you might see some fast guys from classes like HS, DS, GS come over before some of the other classes. But again, if the competition isn't there and they're offsetting their budgets thanks to Hoosier, they'll more than likely stay for the perceived prestige of the current Stock.

Last edited by piknockout; 09-21-2011 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:35 PM   #157
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Josh, I agree that contingency so very important to my view. But I still believe people changing MX-5s and S2000 CRs (great handling cars) have definitely realized they can have great competition without losing out on too much if they are out of trophies. DiSimo is not Strano, but he wins many tours in other classes. But he prepped his '99 Miata for STR...not gonna win. The competition is great. Let's see if next year's CSP pulls all of the S2000s out of STR. Not a fair example for me to use, because I know the prep is not the same. But the r-comps are there for them to win. I truly believe the ST stock classes will bring out some great drivers consisting of past champions and new talent. if the competition is there, and the contingency is there, the top drivers will come.
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Old 09-22-2011, 07:34 AM   #158
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Let's see if next year's CSP pulls all of the S2000s out of STR. Not a fair example for me to use, because I know the prep is not the same. But the r-comps are there for them to win.
If it's not a fair example... why use it? Besides, isn't it your argument that people want to drive to events and not change tires? So why do you now bring in a class for r-comps? Stock to ST is exponentially cheaper than ST to SP, again, for a nationally competitve car.

For the time being, this class is not, and will not be, available at Solo National Championships in Lincoln, which also means known entities more than likely won't be participating in it.

So I have a request. Can we please end the back and forth on a full stock class for the time being, and revisit it next year after it's had some time to germinate and see participation levels? I know I'm guilty of keeping it going, and I won't post on it any more trying to hypothesize what's going to happen in 2-3 years, when it hasn't even been run yet in it's current proposed configuration.

Deal?

--kC
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:54 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
So I have a request. Can we please end the back and forth on a full stock class for the time being, and revisit it next year after it's had some time to germinate and see participation levels? I know I'm guilty of keeping it going, and I won't post on it any more trying to hypothesize what's going to happen in 2-3 years, when it hasn't even been run yet in it's current proposed configuration.

Deal?

--kC
This is a thread for discussion about it. GTFO if you don't want to participate in the discussion
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:57 AM   #160
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I agree, KC. Btw, I used SP example bc it seemed maybe 80 percent relevant. Hopefully, then NSTC events and threads continue to reflect the growing interest for such a change.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:03 AM   #161
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I think all this talk about how great STR is a little off point. ST* classes are fun because you can do all of the suspension stuff, not because you don't need slicks. I'd rather drive an STI in STU than in BS, and that has everything to do with the suspension and wheel allowances, and nothing to do with rcomp vs street tires.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:08 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by snoxracer183 View Post
This is a thread for discussion about it. GTFO if you don't want to participate in the discussion
GTFO? Wow. The orignal post was to draw awareness for people to support this indexed class at tours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1st post in the thread
A proposal is currently being evaluated which would provide an indexed Street Tire class for vehicles legal for the Stock category, at National Tour events in 2012. Member comments regarding such a proposal should be directed to Howard Duncan (hduncan@scca.com). (3327, 4656)
Bold added by me.

1) The proposal isn't even approved yet.
2) It's only for one indexed class.
3) It's only for TOUR events, NOT Nationals.

It then morphed into what it has become (much like the AWD argument in the FT86/BRZ threads). Like I said, I'm going to drop out of the discussion arguing the merits or detractions to a whole stock on street tire category, because it's circular, especially when the proposed index class hasn't even been APPROVED yet for next year.

If the indexed Tour ONLY class gets approved, then we can see if the attendance merits further discussion. Until then, it's really a completely moot point.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 09-22-2011 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:17 AM   #163
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Must. Watch. Train. Wreck.
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:36 PM   #164
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I agree, KC. Btw, I used SP example bc it seemed maybe 80 percent relevant. Hopefully, then NSTC events and threads continue to reflect the growing interest for such a change.
But is there really that much interest? Here is attendance from this year's NSTC events:
Timed Entrants:
Mineral Wells: 70
DC: 117
Atlanta: 91
MKE: 87

So my question is how much interest is really being generated. IMO, those numbers aren't indicative of a huge amount of pent up demand. It will be interesting to see how it goes when it is recognized at tours. But I do see a couple potential limiting factors:
A) How excited is the local only guy going to be about 3 runs per day?
B) How excited will they be that the events cost a lot more?
C) How excited will they be to drive a long way just to do A) and B)?
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:46 PM   #165
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Agreed Dan. Either you want to run National events or you don't. For example, in the WDCR Region we probably average about 15-18 competitors in STU. There are a few that run Philly Region and I'm sure more in Jersey and other areas. So in about a 2 hour range from Dover, you probably have close to 25-30 STU competitors. At the Dover Tour, we had a total of 6 entrants. I'm sure most of those guys didn't see the point of paying higher entry fees for only 6 runs and getting a hotel for a night or two.
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Old 09-22-2011, 03:34 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Illini_STi View Post
But is there really that much interest? Here is attendance from this year's NSTC events:
Timed Entrants:
Mineral Wells: 70
DC: 117
Atlanta: 91
MKE: 87

So my question is how much interest is really being generated. IMO, those numbers aren't indicative of a huge amount of pent up demand. It will be interesting to see how it goes when it is recognized at tours. But I do see a couple potential limiting factors:
A) How excited is the local only guy going to be about 3 runs per day?
B) How excited will they be that the events cost a lot more?
C) How excited will they be to drive a long way just to do A) and B)?
I guess Dan is trying to tell me that I should come back to STU and start beating up on some folks.
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:04 PM   #167
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Does 70+ really seem like a small number for it's first full year with relatively weak advertisement? For ONLY street tires at the entire event...really??
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:06 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by sureshot007 View Post
I think all this talk about how great STR is a little off point. ST* classes are fun because you can do all of the suspension stuff, not because you don't need slicks. I'd rather drive an STI in STU than in BS, and that has everything to do with the suspension and wheel allowances, and nothing to do with rcomp vs street tires.
A data point for you. I converted my S2000 from BS trim to STR for two reasons:
1. Tire costs went from ~$2600 to ~$1000/year for the same number of events. That's a lot of money.
2. I drove a near-STR S2000 in a school and loved the suspension & big wheels.

I have competed in 2 Nationals, 8th in BS in 2008, and mid-pack in BS in 2009. My daughter was born in 2009 so that changed my priorities away from National competitions, but that's beside the point.
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Old 09-22-2011, 04:21 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
Does 70+ really seem like a small number for it's first full year with relatively weak advertisement? For ONLY street tires at the entire event...really??

Mineral Wells: 70 total. 31 on Stock Index.
DC: 117 total. 50 on Stock Index.
Atlanta: 91 total. 37 on Stock Index.
MKE: 87 total. 61 on Stock Index.

Of those cars in stock index, how many currently run r-comps in actual stock? That diminishes the number even more.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 09-22-2011 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:10 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
Does 70+ really seem like a small number for it's first full year with relatively weak advertisement? For ONLY street tires at the entire event...really??
This is the third year in Milwaukee, so yeah.
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Old 09-22-2011, 05:58 PM   #171
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I didn't even hear about it until just after last year's event. MY brother drove there from Ft Myers, FL. I agree with KCs that the stock classed groups need more, but they are still larger than race tire prosolo classes. Again, first-year, street tire only events with even 50 cars when local clubs struggle for those numbers TOTAL. I just disagree.
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:12 PM   #172
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but they are still larger than race tire prosolo classes.
What does this have to do with it? It's a completely different event!!!! (And define "race tire").

You keep bringing out non associated facts from left field that have no bearing on the topic at hand.


--kC
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:52 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by inmledoml23 View Post
I didn't even hear about it until just after last year's event. MY brother drove there from Ft Myers, FL. I agree with KCs that the stock classed groups need more, but they are still larger than race tire prosolo classes. Again, first-year, street tire only events with even 50 cars when local clubs struggle for those numbers TOTAL. I just disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
What does this have to do with it? It's a completely different event!!!! (And define "race tire").

You keep bringing out non associated facts from left field that have no bearing on the topic at hand.


--kC
R Classes in prosolo is a totally different arguement. Prior to this year there was 1 single class covering all non F125 entries. At least this year M & P were split, and the attendance went up. If R1&2 were bump classes instead the only classes, more of the idiot parade would show up. I can almost guarentee D Mod would make a prosolo class at FedEx or Meadowlands, let alone Blytheville, Lincoln, Peru, or Teledo.

Unless you were sleeping at home, a defacto bump class kept many P/M drivers at home because the top of the class is pretty far from the bottom of the class.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:23 PM   #174
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Again, first-year, street tire only events with even 50 cars when local clubs struggle for those numbers TOTAL. I just disagree.
Well in Chicago and Milwuakee we don't struggle for those numbers so when you run an event exclusive to street tires and barely better the monthly local event entries in the same regions.............not impressive.
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Old 09-23-2011, 05:50 AM   #175
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Does 70+ really seem like a small number for it's first full year with relatively weak advertisement? For ONLY street tires at the entire event...really??
This is not a personal attack on you inmledoml23, just an opinion. There have been many discussions on message boards like this one about street tires in stock, and over and over again people talk about this huge silent majority of competitors that are just dying for a chance to run a national event competitively on street tires in a stock class car.

The attendance for the 4 events above, where that huge silent majority was offered exactly what they were asking for, is disappointing. To read people on the internet, you would think there were hundreds of people in each division waiting for this.

As others have said in here, there are people (myself included) who won't travel to national events for other reasons than not having a street tire class. I was one of the local competitors that sat out the Dover Tour mentioned above... I couldn't give up two days away that weekend.

I'm just not convinced that people at the national level really want this. So far, those attendance numbers reinforce that conclusion, at least for me.

Again, not a personal attack on you, just a general observation.

Scott
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