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Old 08-30-2011, 04:36 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Porsche mulls flat-8 for Ferrari rival




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Porsche is considering engineering a flat-eight boxster engine for its Ferrari-rivalling supercar, company bosses have admitted.

At the first unveiling of the new 991-series 911, Wolfgang Hatz, Porsche head of Research and Development said such an engine was ‘possible’. He told Autocar: "We have to go into that market properly equipped.".

See a picture of Porsche's previous flat-eight machine
This week Porsche CEO Mathhias Müller said he was ‘irritated’ that Porsche didn’t compete with Ferrari in the 250,000 Euros-plus price range. He said there was space for a car like the seminal 1980s high-tech 959 model.
Porsche engineers have long been frustrated by the fact that the company’s iconic flat-six engine cannot be extended much beyond 4.0-litres. It’s also felt that in the Ferrari-dominated market, eight cylinders are a pre-requisite.

Moving to a larger engine would also differentiate the new model from the new 911 and next-generation Cayman range. It’s thought that the creation of such an engine has been made easier by the engineering working currently being done on the new turbocharged flat-four engine, which will be offered in Porsche’s planned entry-level roadster. This all-new motor is thought to be modular, allowing it to be extended into the next-generation flat-6 and a flat-8.

Hatz also said that a development of the Carrera GT’s ultra-compact transmission could be used for the new model. Such a transmission would free-up space for the use of the longer eight-cylinder engine.

"We could develop it, of course, One of the key issues is where we put the differential, but it is a possibility," he said.

In 1969 Porsche built two flat-eight equipped versions of the mid-engined 914, one of which was given to Ferry Porsche (Ferdinand Porsche’s son) for his 60th birthday. The other is in the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart. Despite the concept’s age, the 3.0-litre naturally-aspirated engine was still good for nearly 300bhp.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...llCars/258874/
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Old 08-30-2011, 04:46 PM   #2
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Sounds like a packaging nightmare.

Wouldn't a ~5-liter, short-stroke V-10 (like the 1LR-GUE) make more sense?
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:07 PM   #3
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Wha?????

A flat 8 is shorter, and better balanced than a V10.

Viva La Flat 8!

I hope they do it really, really right, and if they mount turbos to it, they should reverse-flow the heads, and put two variable-geometry divided-housing turbos on the top of the engine (heat shield between the block and the turbos of course), and exhaust out over the transaxle. Easier packaging than the McLaren 12C's V8, and better for thermal transfer upward, and out of the engine bay.

Fantastic news.
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:13 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Spenk View Post
Sounds like a packaging nightmare.

Wouldn't a ~5-liter, short-stroke V-10 (like the 1LR-GUE) make more sense?
What the hell is the point of Porsche using a V engine in their most expensive car? It has to be a flat engine.
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Old 08-30-2011, 05:17 PM   #5
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Just don't try to hang it off the back of a 911.
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:03 PM   #6
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Yes! Then the twin turbo flat 12!
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:26 PM   #7
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I also hope it is more than just a 180-degree V like the Ferrari flat 12.

True 180-degree crank journal separation between opposed pistons, and a 90-degree phase between adjacent pistons. Make it a true BOXER!
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Old 08-30-2011, 07:54 PM   #8
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Oh F yes - well-deserved banana
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:24 PM   #9
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If you keep the displacement small, like 3.0-4.0L keeping the pistons nice and narrow, this could be a pretty compact motor.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arghx7 View Post
What the hell is the point of Porsche using a V engine in their most expensive car? It has to be a flat engine.
Well, they already used a V engine in their most expensive car... it was still a great car IMO.
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Old 08-30-2011, 09:55 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Well, they already used a V engine in their most expensive car... it was still a great car IMO.
Yeah, they just need to flatten it out and it'd be awesome.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:21 AM   #12
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Not arguing, but the V10 it had wasn't a bad engine by any means. I do agree though that to be in the spirit of Porsche it must have a flat engine.

I'm not sure how I feel about turbos. Have you noticed that the high-end supercars are N/A? Ferrari and Lamborghini V12 engines output as much as they do without the aid of forced induction. To really compete in that arena, I think it would need to be a very robust N/A engine rather than a twin turbo.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Not arguing, but the V10 it had wasn't a bad engine by any means. I do agree though that to be in the spirit of Porsche it must have a flat engine.

I'm not sure how I feel about turbos. Have you noticed that the high-end supercars are N/A? Ferrari and Lamborghini V12 engines output as much as they do without the aid of forced induction. To really compete in that arena, I think it would need to be a very robust N/A engine rather than a twin turbo.
Ever heard of the F40? Still considered by many to be the pinnacle of supercars complete w/ twin turbos. Not saying that most aren't glorious NA machines but having a turbo doesn't make it less supercar or less high-end
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:27 PM   #14
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I was at my mechanic's shop the other day. Tucked away in the corner. . . Flat 12



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Old 08-31-2011, 02:57 PM   #15
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I'm more interested in that 'entry level roadster' they mention... But what exactly is the entry level price?
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:21 PM   #16
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Probably starting in the high $30k range.
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:26 PM   #17
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Probably starting in the high $30k range.
x10
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Old 08-31-2011, 03:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spenk View Post
Sounds like a packaging nightmare.

Wouldn't a ~5-liter, short-stroke V-10 (like the 1LR-GUE) make more sense?
The flat engine design keeps the center of gravity lower.
I learned that by reading Subaru literature.
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:48 PM   #19
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I love seeing internet arguments of engine architcture
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
Not arguing, but the V10 it had wasn't a bad engine by any means. I do agree though that to be in the spirit of Porsche it must have a flat engine.

I'm not sure how I feel about turbos. Have you noticed that the high-end supercars are N/A? Ferrari and Lamborghini V12 engines output as much as they do without the aid of forced induction. To really compete in that arena, I think it would need to be a very robust N/A engine rather than a twin turbo.
Have you not noticed the McLaren MP4-12C and the bar it raised?
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Old 09-01-2011, 12:02 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White out View Post
I was at my mechanic's shop the other day. Tucked away in the corner. . . Flat 12



Nick
Interesting. What car is it from? doesn't scream ferrari, but it isn't exactly dressed.

And without the throttles covered, who knows what is in there...
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elirentz View Post
Ever heard of the F40? Still considered by many to be the pinnacle of supercars complete w/ twin turbos. Not saying that most aren't glorious NA machines but having a turbo doesn't make it less supercar or less high-end
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hites View Post
Have you not noticed the McLaren MP4-12C and the bar it raised?
Perhaps I chose my words poorly. These supercars are not less high-end if they have turbos, nor are the N/A ones more high end. I've simply noticed there's many more of them WITHOUT turbos than with. I drive a WRX, I obviously appreciate turbos to some degree or another. What I'm saying is that when you have two supercars where one is N/A and the other F/I, there's a significant difference in my mind as to how advanced the two cars are.

Yes, a significant amount of engineering going into a proper F/I engine, but how much more for a reliable and powerful N/A engine? If both make the same output, I'd rather take the one that's N/A. Though it's worth mentioning one's probably 8 cylinders with two turbos and the other either 10 or 12 cylinders.
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Old 09-01-2011, 02:29 AM   #23
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It depends on if you are equalizing horsepower, or if you are equalizing chassis space for the engine.

If the chassis is compact, to keep weight down, it might not house a V10 or V12, and V8 vs turbo V8, the turbocharged engine will clearly outperform, even more distinctly if we are talking state-of-the-art, with variable valve management and direct injection, with turbocharging.

But I would agree, that if packaging is not a concern, and equalizing power output instead, that a naturally aspirated engine making the given power level will be the "sweeter" engine, with more latent torque, and more linear and probably quicker throttle response for not having supercharger drag, or turbocharger lag and backpressure.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Interesting. What car is it from? doesn't scream ferrari, but it isn't exactly dressed.

And without the throttles covered, who knows what is in there...
The only flat 12 I'm aware of is out of a Porsche 917, if that is an original 5.4L 917 flat 12 it's worth quite a bit of money.
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Old 09-01-2011, 10:53 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbly Bullseye View Post
I'm more interested in that 'entry level roadster' they mention... But what exactly is the entry level price?
Quote:
Originally Posted by e11ys View Post
Probably starting in the high $30k range.
Base Cayman starts at 51K, so I would guess 45K for a new entry level model.
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