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Old 08-08-2012, 10:16 PM   #101
rexworx
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Bringing this back from the dead. Anyone running one of their engines yet? I should be up and running in a few weeks...
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:34 PM   #102
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Few weeks (hopefully) for me as well. I am still waiting on other parts.
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Old 09-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #103
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I did the porting to two engines now since seeing this. The first one is done and the results were actually not what i expected. I have pictures but they look like the rest. I added 2 additional shims and have a 10-40 oil im seeing a 35psi at 1050 rpm idle hot. 2500 im seeing 65, 3000 im seeing 80-85 and over 4000 im seeing up near 100psi. Clearances were all .0015 on both the rods and the crank. The thing im noticing is a much better oil pressure increase with RPM. Im surprised actually... This would mean that the oil galleys werent able to support the flow of oil that i was requesting from some of the motors....

Secondly i was noticing some posts about shimming the pump and when it wont make a difference. From my experience I found that the more shims i added did actually increase the oil pressure over all... meaning idle, cruise and high rpm which isn't what i would expect. I debated this with Turbo_Mike for hour(s) (best conversation i had in weeks with someone) and we came to the following conclusion.

We feel that the pump may have a stiffer spring pressure by adding shims and the theory was that the pump was shut and thats all the pressure we could make so at a certain point it didnt matter how many shims we did. However, when i added another shim it went up by 5psi on a specific car at idle.... for each shim... Which made me think maybe we are seeing the issue of the pump is almost staying closed but since it is a hole for the bypass on the side, maybe the thin thin oil is actually pissing out the bypass when it just starts to open.... So instead of meaning to bypass it, we are seeing the parasitic loss from the oil plunger just barely opening past that hole...

With that being said my method of oil weights and such is... i run 10-40 on DD cars and 10-50 on the bigger ones for the least bearing to metal contact, then i shim the pump till i like what i see. On avcs motors for DD cars i run 2 extra shims, on loose motors with avcs i do 3 extra and for anything else i play it by ear...

Please note that if you are pushing the pump to make these higher pressures that may not be needed, you probably are super heating the oil in the pump... and when we thought about it more we came to another deduction that we must be running an incredible pressure in the pump to make this higher oil pressure in the motor, this causing higher oil temps. We noticed this on 3 seperate motors, 2 sleeved, 1 not. Where after 3 gears of a pull the oil temps would rise by 40-50 degrees.... MEANING we needed an oil cooler.

Results after the oil coolers were the motors withstood hours of dyno time / pulls with no increase, (or minimal) in oil temps during pulls.

Just food for thought if your thinking about shimming, porting, or doing crazy things to your motor... get some good gauges so you dont smoke the motor!
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Old 09-18-2012, 11:04 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamofo View Post
I did the porting to two engines now since seeing this. The first one is done and the results were actually not what i expected. I have pictures but they look like the rest. I added 2 additional shims and have a 10-40 oil im seeing a 35psi at 1050 rpm idle hot. 2500 im seeing 65, 3000 im seeing 80-85 and over 4000 im seeing up near 100psi. Clearances were all .0015 on both the rods and the crank. The thing im noticing is a much better oil pressure increase with RPM. Im surprised actually... This would mean that the oil galleys werent able to support the flow of oil that i was requesting from some of the motors....
Shouldnt the pressure be lower and the flow higher with porting? Seems odd that removing restrictions and increaseing flow would be the cause of higher pressure?
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Old 09-19-2012, 12:16 AM   #105
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Also, you should NOT be just throwing shims in based on your "gut" feeling and "design". You need to measure the spring pressure and adjust shims as necessary to meet the spec. The exact same way you would test a valve spring... There IS a reason some OEM factory pumps come with no shims, one shim, two shims, and etc.
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Old 09-19-2012, 07:36 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
Shouldnt the pressure be lower and the flow higher with porting? Seems odd that removing restrictions and increaseing flow would be the cause of higher pressure?

This is what i was noticing actually. So the pressure is lower then i normally see at idle but the flow was increased which is what i was trying to get across last night

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Also, you should NOT be just throwing shims in based on your "gut" feeling and "design". You need to measure the spring pressure and adjust shims as necessary to meet the spec. The exact same way you would test a valve spring... There IS a reason some OEM factory pumps come with no shims, one shim, two shims, and etc.

Is sounds like you missed the point i was trying to get across. I only use the 11mm oil pump on the cars i build. So im not just guessing from a "gut" feeling like you described in your post. I have a very close estimation when each motor is done what i will see for oil pressure during prime, initial start, and when its hot. The point i was trying to get across was that I use the oil wt suggestion based off what the car will be used for, then include AVCS, block type and driver type to determine how many shims i will add. Standard 11mm will have 1 shim. If you get an old enough 10mm pump off an early early 02 it will have 2, the latest 09wrx showed up with a 10mm pump with 2 shims.... for whatever reason. On a brand new pump the spring pressure, if tested like a valve spring, should read within 1-2 psi at its ideal quench size which is why i see the same results on the motors i spec, build and support after build.

To summarize the oil galley porting was well worth it if your used to porting. But if i just did the porting and didnt know any of the oil pump shimming tricks i have a feeling that it wouldnt have lasted too long...

Lastly this is my findings, not my opinions... I generally test my ideas many times before i suggest or put ideas in other peoples heads.
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Old 09-19-2012, 10:13 PM   #107
Crazykev
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Really good info Bamofo! I won't have mine in the car for another couple months. My current motor is running just fine and want to do this one time, so I'm not rushing it.

smitty5788 is building a wicked ride and I'm sure his motor will be seeing some high sustained RPMs. It will be put to the test for sure!
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:52 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamofo

This is what i was noticing actually. So the pressure is lower then i normally see at idle but the flow was increased which is what i was trying to get across last night

Is sounds like you missed the point i was trying to get across. I only use the 11mm oil pump on the cars i build. So im not just guessing from a "gut" feeling like you described in your post. I have a very close estimation when each motor is done what i will see for oil pressure during prime, initial start, and when its hot. The point i was trying to get across was that I use the oil wt suggestion based off what the car will be used for, then include AVCS, block type and driver type to determine how many shims i will add. Standard 11mm will have 1 shim. If you get an old enough 10mm pump off an early early 02 it will have 2, the latest 09wrx showed up with a 10mm pump with 2 shims.... for whatever reason. On a brand new pump the spring pressure, if tested like a valve spring, should read within 1-2 psi at its ideal quench size which is why i see the same results on the motors i spec, build and support after build.

To summarize the oil galley porting was well worth it if your used to porting. But if i just did the porting and didnt know any of the oil pump shimming tricks i have a feeling that it wouldnt have lasted too long...

Lastly this is my findings, not my opinions... I generally test my ideas many times before i suggest or put ideas in other peoples heads.


BAMOFO,

Do you have any logs of RPM vs oil pressure? You nicely noted a few RPMs and oil pressures, but it would be very interesting to see the curve and try to see where the bypass is starting to affect pressures.

Also, I understand you only use the 11mm pump and shim to your desired goals, but do you port the pump itself at all?

If I understand you correctly, for my dual AVCS high rpm, 450 whp, daily driver / weekend fun, build you would suggest as a starting point-

Oil galley porting
11mm pump with two additional shims
10w40 oil
Gauges to verify 10psi per 1000rpm + 10psi
0.0015" bearing clearance on mains and rods


Yes?

Thanks. Mel.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:47 AM   #109
Bamofo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboulton View Post
BAMOFO,

Do you have any logs of RPM vs oil pressure? You nicely noted a few RPMs and oil pressures, but it would be very interesting to see the curve and try to see where the bypass is starting to affect pressures.

Also, I understand you only use the 11mm pump and shim to your desired goals, but do you port the pump itself at all?

If I understand you correctly, for my dual AVCS high rpm, 450 whp, daily driver / weekend fun, build you would suggest as a starting point-

Oil galley porting
11mm pump with two additional shims
10w40 oil
Gauges to verify 10psi per 1000rpm + 10psi
0.0015" bearing clearance on mains and rods


Yes?

Thanks. Mel.

Unfortunately I don't have more points as the Defi Gauges or w/e gauges im using at the time do not record into the romraider logger However i did oil galley porting on an 04STI about a month ago and could only get a 10mm pump at the time, it showed very similar results, maybe even more idle oil pressure to be honest.

As for your second question yes that is where i would personally start from.

Lastly i will have more data points in a couple weeks as i have 2 more friends that want winter builds before it gets too cold... one will be a 2.0 motor and the other will be a 2.5. And No i dont port the oil pump itself... scares me to be honest.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:11 PM   #110
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Thanks so much for answering. I am trying to find a complete data logging solution so that I could record standard engine OBDII/CANBUS type data and additional info such as oil temp, oil pressure, crankcase pressure, fuel pressure blah blah blah.

I hope to have things up and running around February, and will post back on results.

Thanks again for your contributions.

Mel
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #111
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And I look forward to hearing about the additional builds and results in the next few months???
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:04 PM   #112
rexworx
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Hey guys and gals, I just wanted too give a lil update my engine is up and running... I have about 4k miles on it so far. Things seem too be working well. I need too install a oil pressure gauge and a oil temp too see if Im over heating the oil with the pump. I know im crazy for not having a pressure gauge already when doing these mods!!!

Ian,
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:53 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by rexworx View Post
Hey guys and gals, I just wanted too give a lil update my engine is up and running... I have about 4k miles on it so far. Things seem too be working well. I need too install a oil pressure gauge and a oil temp too see if Im over heating the oil with the pump. I know im crazy for not having a pressure gauge already when doing these mods!!!

Ian,
Since you want to get an oil pressure and oil temp gauge, spend the money and get the Defi racer series oil pressure gauge and then the oil temp one. I have the Defi racer series white led oil pressure gauge and I love it, definitely worth the money I paid. I put the oil pressure sending unit right under the alternator which will be easy to get to if I need to.

I got my defi gauge from importimage racing off here for a good deal so message them to see what they can do
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:10 AM   #114
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Thanks I actually already have the AEM uego, and boost gauge so ill prob go with AEM gauges so things match. Ive install a bunch of the Defi racers at work and they are nice...

I actually have a vendor account from a large source that IIR and others use so I just cut out the middle man... "not avaliable for public " Though I do sometime buy certain things from certain vendors...

Ian,
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:20 PM   #115
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Thanks to all for this. Once I cracked the case on my EJ253 and saw the dirty passages, I searched and found this!

Can't wait to have a reliable well oiled N/A daily driver that will survie the 2x a month 800 mile each way trips!
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:21 AM   #116
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Glad to see this thread still alive. haha
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:41 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by AdamBOMB_STi View Post
Glad to see this thread still alive. haha
What's the spec of your newest motor, iirc I saw one on facebook making 500whp?
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:44 AM   #118
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Just a lil update. I have about 13,000 miles on my build so far. so far so good... Though this one is doing ok, Ive kicked around the idea of building another one but that will prob be a while...

Compression/Leakdown test results as of a few weeks ago using OTC kits.

1- 148psi/ 4% Leakage
2- 144psi/ 6% Leakage
3- 150psi/ 3% Leakage
4- 146psi/ 4% Leakage


Ian,
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:12 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by CatfaceType-R View Post
What's the spec of your newest motor, iirc I saw one on facebook making 500whp?
The latest motor I had was a 9.8:1 Manley Piston stock bore, LA Sleeved, Oliver Rod, Stock Balanced Crank, P&P head, Ferrea and Supertech valvetrain, Kelford 276/272, 35R, E85, blah blah blah. lol

Made 575whp all said and done. Didnt last long as it ate a valve due to a few different issues I overlooked. Luckily most was salvagable beside the pistons and one cylinder head. I'm in the process a rebuilding it with lower comp pistons.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:33 PM   #120
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Mind posting what issues you overlooked?? Maybe save another person a motor
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:14 PM   #121
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Mind posting what issues you overlooked?? Maybe save another person a motor
1. Piston to valve clearance... lol make sure you have a thick enough head gasket for the valves to clear the piston tops at full cam lift

2. Make sure the piston valve reliefs are cut for the valves you're running. In my case I was running +1mm valves and the Manley pistons I was running were not. Though they were advertised for +1 valves.
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Old 07-19-2013, 04:36 PM   #122
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ouch...that sucks about Manley's false advertisement. I hope they helped you out some what.

If I was doing +1 valves I'd def clay the motor for that reason
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:11 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Paul View Post
ouch...that sucks about Manley's false advertisement. I hope they helped you out some what.

If I was doing +1 valves I'd def clay the motor for that reason


I'm running +1 valves on an EJ253 I-Avls motor. The bottom end is at the machine shop now, thanks for sharing this.

I'm going to clay the valve/piston clearances for sure now.
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Old 07-22-2013, 11:50 AM   #124
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I'm running +1 valves on an EJ253 I-Avls motor. The bottom end is at the machine shop now, thanks for sharing this.

I'm going to clay the valve/piston clearances for sure now.
If I went with the lower comp Manley's I know I wouldn't have had the valve to piston clearance. Need less to say I wont be going with the high comps this time around.
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:25 PM   #125
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If I went with the lower comp Manley's I know I wouldn't have had the valve to piston clearance. Need less to say I wont be going with the high comps this time around.
I am running stock EJ253 10:1 pistons with the valve reliefs. I suppose if they don't clear I will find out quick when it binds up and they touch.

Worse case, pistons come out again and I take material off.
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