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Old 09-08-2011, 11:34 PM   #1
DJIMPREZA
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Default Pushing coolant on sleeved block, dissambled and no signs of Head gasket failure

Guys

I can`t think of anything else, so all comments are very welcome

Brand new short block, sleeved by a very well known sleever in the states with dartons ductile iron sleeves

cosworth big valve cyl heads 07 sti

pe full grommet head gaskets

l19 arp 11 mm head studs

1000 miles on the engine, including break in.


Pushing coolant on 15 psi of boost, never has overheated ever (big rad, oil cooler, front sti 07 nose, hood scoop mod, big subaru fans) etc etc... on cruising I can not see any temp above 180 deg, even on traffic jams etc etc, if I boost the car up a lot, I will lose coolant, and keep losing it only on boost, i keep adding coolant. leak down test showed no air burbles at radiator setup, coolant pressure system check showed no leaks, rad caps are fine and holding pressure.

I teared down the engine, found 4 differences in torque from the L19s, but no more tha 10 percent difference

I thought I was gonna see the typical combustion path to a water jacket, on the block or head or head gasket surface.. I couldnt see anything!! nothing water jackets are clean con combustion marks have not touch the water jackets!!

Sleeves were press in and all of them has a very small step down of 0.0025 of a inches from block`s deck to sleeve surface.

If I can`t see the combustion path trough the head gaskets, and leak down test showed perfect seal and no air burbles at radiator tank, how am I suppose to diagnose the possible combustion leak/sleeved dropped??

I have a 140deg thermostat and the engines temp were always in the 180 degs...

thanks for the comments all of them are very welcome!!

I am also thinking I might have one port on the cosworth head bad machined at cosworth and got a hair crack... but now I need to clean it first, but if thats the case I would be vaccum water into intake?? I cant see signs on the parts yet
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:03 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJIMPREZA

Sleeves were press in and all of them has a very small step down of 0.0025 of a inches from block`s deck to sleeve surface.
There you go.
That's enough right there.
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:42 AM   #3
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^ more so, sleeving a brand new case can be worse off because it hasn't been heat cycled.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:22 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF Machine View Post
There you go.
That's enough right there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJIMPREZA View Post
Sleeves were press in and all of them has a very small step down of 0.0025 of a inches from block`s deck to sleeve surface.
+1...

second on this..
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:40 AM   #5
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Yeah it dropped a sleeve. You can deck the block and hope for the best.
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Old 09-09-2011, 08:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69subaru360 View Post
Yeah it dropped a sleeve. You can deck the block and hope for the best.
not really much hoping for the best...just deck it and hope that they are as settled as they're gonig to get.

*I prefer sleeving a used block to a new block*
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:02 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF Machine View Post
There you go.
That's enough right there.
do you think 0.0025 stepped down might be enough for a 0.57 gasket to leak? shouldn`t I be seeing the combustion water path mark on the cyl head or the block surface? I can`t see anything.

This block was made by a known US dealer, I told him it was gonna be a new block and said its okay as he heat cycles the block while doing his stuff.

What`s better for this block a milling cutting machine, or a milling stone machine?

This is the 3th different sleeved block from another BIG ENGINE BUILDER that we are having big money issues after build up.

Or maybe I have a cosworth head cracked? i will do a pressure test today on the intake ports...

Last edited by DJIMPREZA; 09-09-2011 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:59 AM   #8
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I'd pressure test before yanking it. An over ported head can push too...though I doubt Cosworth goes that far.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:09 AM   #9
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There was a post here where an exhaust port on a cosworth head cracked into the water jacket.. a big mess!..
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:25 AM   #10
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Where are you pushing coolant? Is it overflowing into the overflow? Or is it just disappearing? I am also assuming no smoke out the exhaust when boosting and losing coolant?
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Old 09-09-2011, 12:16 PM   #11
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Where you given any instruction about the block installation? Did he assemble the long block or just do the sleeving? Was he expecting the end user to do the final decking of the block or was it ready to be put it once you received it? If anything I would have expected the sleeves to be slightly higher than the block or preferably flush with the rest of the block. Have you talked to Dan about this yet?
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:11 PM   #12
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I don't think any engine can get properly heat cycled without it actually running off it's own power and heat. You can tear down a fresh subie engine that has been ran and heat cycled and measure the bores and decks. I'm willing to bet that the bores will be out of round and the decks not perfectly flat.

That being said, with many years experience with high performance imports, I would always advise using a good condition used engine core for a sleeve job.

Sorry to hear about the dropped sleeve.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:28 PM   #13
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Hi Guys

I am just really frustrated, the sleeves are bellow deck by 0.002 but there ARE NO SIGNS of dropping at all, nor betewen them/bottom etc etc.. I just guess a better block decking was needed at the machinist..

I was pushing coolant out while only on boost. No smoke on tailpipe, no water oil mixing nothing. 1000 miles on the engine.

I did not have any "instructions" to get this installed, just our 18 years experience building subarus and around 20 FSMs, but, we only trusted US machinists for this type of sleeving work for subarus, Benson told me to "boost away" the block, so it was ready to be ran, the sleeves are not flush, it is just 0.002 t0 0.0025 stepped down.. now I need to deck this thing down, what to use? a stone or a knife type milling machine?, in the past we send one to a local machinist, he did use a stone milling machine but needed 3 revisions and the CR went up, and i dont like this for this engine at all...

today I found a hard to see path for the air to scape, betwen the cylinders.. also notices the mark left by the head gasket is not as strong as from other engine we hace seen

Very tricky, difficult and a nigthmare sealing a sleeved subaru block that is not flushed 0 to 0, dont u guys ever expect something to be 100 perfect out of the box, even if NASA made it for you, come here to the forum ask, ask, ask and learn from otherīs experience, in this case the better/precise measuring tool with be a flat bar with a rolling dial indicator, as the feeler gauge method will not be as precise.. even a 0.002 difference would be to much for an mls gasket and I used 400 USd PE full grommet bla bla bla head gasket... now I also know that your finger nails could be used if you feel a resistance touching the portions on the deck where the sleeves are met, go to the machinist again.. you need that thing flush at least... and feel like the sleeves are just one unit with blockīs decks at least.

Also a copper ring wonīt seal at all on a subaru, been there, asked for that and results were horrible, lost a lot of money.

Roger clark motorsports sells a WRX thinck copper top sleeve Ring wich should be the strongest stuff for combustion chamber sealment used on rally cars, I wonder when or where could this be done to semi close deck ej257s.. as he implied this is done only on full close deck blocks.


This is the 4th time guys with subaru sleeved block problem..

First one, cooper oringed, trusted the builder, leaked a lot
Second one, paid a lot to have cyl to piston wall clearance done.. I end up buyind larger pistons as the sleever did a terrible job
3th one, sleeves pressed to much, cracked block on the rear section, build everything water scape from flywheel area.
4th sleeved not flush ;(

Last edited by DJIMPREZA; 09-09-2011 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:30 PM   #14
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wow that sucks. i find that it is hard to find a coolent leak with such low miles on it. i had a similer problem on 2 builds one was a warped head and the other was the RA on the decking was to rough and both time i couldnt see any visable signs of water.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:37 PM   #15
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Another reason for a full o-ring/headgasketless set up.

now if parker would only answer a freakin request for a batch of custom molded o-rings!!!
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Old 09-09-2011, 03:27 PM   #16
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Wonder if i'm having the same issue as you are, but it sounds like it.
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Old 09-09-2011, 05:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
Another reason for a full o-ring/headgasketless set up.

now if parker would only answer a freakin request for a batch of custom molded o-rings!!!
Honestly is the mating surface is O to O flat, I see no reason for molded o rings if you are not boosting more 28 psi or so. it would be nice to have the WRC seal though

I have yet to see a low ten second subaru that do not pushes coolant out..

Jeff send me your phone number bro

Cheers

DJ
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal_Imprezav View Post
Where are you pushing coolant? Is it overflowing into the overflow? Or is it just disappearing? I am also assuming no smoke out the exhaust when boosting and losing coolant?
this ^^^
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Old 09-09-2011, 06:29 PM   #19
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In one of my tear down threads you will see that I could also not find any coolant tracks but I did find my sleeves had dropped. I was overheating after 1-2 laps if I remember.

That block was decked, put back together and run without issue. Since then it's been refreshed again including being decked and once again is back in the car.

Surface the block and put it back together IMO
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJIMPREZA View Post
Honestly is the mating surface is O to O flat, I see no reason for molded o rings if you are not boosting more 28 psi or so. it would be nice to have the WRC seal though

I have yet to see a low ten second subaru that do not pushes coolant out..

Jeff send me your phone number bro

Cheers

DJ
I don't push any coolant running 10.0's and going 6.3 through the 1/8th .

I will email you my number.
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:31 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJIMPREZA View Post
Honestly is the mating surface is O to O flat, I see no reason for molded o rings if you are not boosting more 28 psi or so. it would be nice to have the WRC seal though

I have yet to see a low ten second subaru that do not pushes coolant out..

Jeff send me your phone number bro

Cheers

DJ
It is easy to not push coolant if your block is good and machined right.

If you need a used block and want it sleeved PM ASF Machine, I got a block they can sleeve for you.
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:05 AM   #22
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You always have to check the work before you build it. Even if its from Darton themselves I still always check to make sure they decked it for the head gaskets im using, retorque the torqueplate and check for round/straight. If you dont then things like this happen. Just finished cleaning up a huge mess from another vendor... had to get bigger pistons and redeck the surface as they did it for the wrong type of headgasket and it was out of round. Sorry to hear though
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJIMPREZA View Post
Honestly is the mating surface is O to O flat, I see no reason for molded o rings...

...I have yet to see a low ten second subaru that do not pushes coolant out.
self contradiction?

although I know there are fast subies that don't push coolant. O-ringing wouldn't simply be a solution for coolant pushing but paired with Will's rings for combustion. Also, MLS gaskets can run over 28 psi.

I guess people still don't get that boost pressure does not dictate PCP, which is what really matters. Add fuel type, ignition system, dynamic CR, boost pressure, MBT, etc...

Besides, I'm not the one saying they're needed. I simply work to fill voids that come to me from the field. People request it and I work to solve the issues at hand

...on a good note, Parker finally got back to me.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 09-12-2011 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:01 AM   #24
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the thing is that it seems we have done many things to avoid pushing coolant that we are doing so on fast cars...I will do it very simple this time
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Old 09-15-2011, 10:15 PM   #25
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my byddy had the same issue at 500 miles on his sleeved block
coolant kept going into oil
took the oil pan off pressurized the coolant system and sure enough the sleeve was leaking
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