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Old 12-15-2011, 05:27 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
The Impreza had multiple options for all of the 90s, not just a few years. 1.8, 2.2 for N/A until the 2.5RS came out and it was 2.2 and 2.5. Then the Turbo WRX came over and it was 2.0T and 2.5 N.A.

This is nothing new.

--kC
But you're talking about different models. The 2.5rs is a separate model as is the WRX. What Scramjett seemed to expect was an Impreza XV 2.0i and Impreza XV 2.5i the way Subaru offers both a Legacy 2.5i and 3.6r. That's been fairly rare in the Impreza lineup.

I realize it sounds a bit pedantic, but I stand by my assertion, there has never been an optional engine in the OBS, and only rarely two engine options in the "regular" Impreza. Much of the time the Impreza came with optional engines the Forester didn't exist.

Given the low expected sales volume of the XV, the fact that the optional engine would have only 22 hp more than the base engine and the availability of the very similar Forester with the 2.5l engine, expecting an optional engine is a bit much.
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Old 12-15-2011, 05:35 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Given the low expected sales volume of the XV, the fact that the optional engine would have only 22 hp more than the base engine and the availability of the very similar Forester with the 2.5l engine, expecting an optional engine is a bit much.
Subaru is expecting 30K units a year in the US. Not exactly low.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:10 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Snow Drift View Post
While I agree it is a lot of marketing. A 90/10 clutch system is basically FWD and not very good for bad conditions.

Of course none of them are very good as mechical gears is much better (WRX, STI, Forester, Legacy GT/3.6R, Tribeca)/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Drift
Viscous Coupling would be preferred to clutch plates as clutch plates always slip and cannot lock.


You do realize that 90/10 is just the initial torque split before any wheel slip, right? I don't know the maximum torque capacity of the central clutch, but it most certainly is not always slipping. It's capable of locking the front and rear differentials together up to some substantial level of difference in torque. In that way it can be better in low traction situations than the viscous coupled center diff in the WRX. It can force the front and rear differentials to spin at the same speed regardless of the difference in traction at the wheels. It's certainly a lot more than "basically FWD".

Where the WRX setup shows advantage is handling with higher, consistent traction. The 50/50 torque split allows more RWD style throttle steering on corner exit where the electronic clutch setup would just cause understeer.

As an aside, the CVT Outbacks are 90/10 in the US, but 60/40 elsewhere, which is what leads me to believe it's just a re-programming of the lockup behavior. I strongly suspect CAFE is the reason for more FWD bias in the US Outback.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:17 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Shavenyak View Post
Subaru is expecting 30K units a year in the US. Not exactly low.
Depends on your definition of low. It's half the expected sales of the regular Impreza. Subaru sells 90k+ Outbacks a year, Toyota sells 30k Camrys per month.
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:30 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
But you're talking about different models. The 2.5rs is a separate model as is the WRX. What Scramjett seemed to expect was an Impreza XV 2.0i and Impreza XV 2.5i the way Subaru offers both a Legacy 2.5i and 3.6r. That's been fairly rare in the Impreza lineup.

I realize it sounds a bit pedantic, but I stand by my assertion, there has never been an optional engine in the OBS, and only rarely two engine options in the "regular" Impreza. Much of the time the Impreza came with optional engines the Forester didn't exist.
Yep. You're being pedantic.

Subaru has a long history with offering varied engines in the same PLATFORM and calling them 2, sometimes 3 different things.

Impreza Sedan: L, LS, LX, Brighton, 2.5RS (Don't forget, '98 had the DOHC and the '99-'01 had the SOHC)
Impreza Coupe: L, LX, 2.5RS
Impreza Wagon: L, LS, LX, L Special Edition, Outback, Outback Special Edition, Outback Sport

They weren't models, they were trim lines on the same platform as the others with different suspension, or running gear.

Replace "L" with "XV 2.0i" and "LX" or with "XV 2.5i" and that's all they're doing.

--kC
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Old 12-15-2011, 06:33 PM   #256
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Successfull, perhaps. Desired by fans of great Subaru vehicles of the past? Nope.

Very, very dissapointing about the 1 motor!!
I disagree with this. It depends on the car. Is fuel economy desired on compact cars? Yes. If the Impreza wants to compete with other cars in its class then it has to take the hit in hp but for an AWD CrossOver. No, not in my opinion. People expect to have lower fuel economy for a trade off in power, it's why they chose it. The XV makes no sense to me. If someone wants fuel economy a decent amount of room, then the Impreza five door is for them.

Me..well as soon as I saw this I fell in love with it but the 148hp is making me second guess it now.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:28 PM   #257
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I disagree with this. It depends on the car. Is fuel economy desired on compact cars? Yes. If the Impreza wants to compete with other cars in its class then it has to take the hit in hp but for an AWD CrossOver. No, not in my opinion. People expect to have lower fuel economy for a trade off in power, it's why they chose it. The XV makes no sense to me. If someone wants fuel economy a decent amount of room, then the Impreza five door is for them.

Me..well as soon as I saw this I fell in love with it but the 148hp is making me second guess it now.
I think someone's post got messed up based on the entire dialogue above.

For the comments before "Me.."

I don't like where Subaru is going with their engine "offerings" for their cars (except for the WRX). The last Impreza had 171hp; now, its down 23hp. The last Impreza wasn't exactly a fast car, even with a 5spd. Now its outpowered by Kia, the Ford Focus, and even the Lancer - not by a little, but by a lot. On top of it, their AWD which brings greater drivetrain losses than FWD. 148hp in Subarus, is probably on par < 140hp in a FWD sized about like an Impreza/XV. Are people getting smaller, and lighter??

Is losing 23hp and XXlb-ft worth a couple MPG? If the difference in MPG between the 171hp Impreza and 148hp Impreza is going to break someone's piggy bank, they shouldn't be in a brand new car anyway. What's next? 148hp Legacy's and Forresters? Does 23hp matter? When it's approximately 16% of overall power, yes.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:32 PM   #258
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Road & Track's thoughts
http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/drives/2013-subaru-xv

"...you can minimize the motorboating and actually play with the box."

really?
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Old 12-15-2011, 09:40 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by scramjett View Post
Is losing 23hp and XXlb-ft worth a couple MPG? If the difference in MPG between the 171hp Impreza and 148hp Impreza is going to break someone's piggy bank, they shouldn't be in a brand new car anyway. What's next? 148hp Legacy's and Forresters? Does 23hp matter? When it's approximately 16% of overall power, yes.
Subaru, as well as other car makers, research what people want in their cars.
Many people say they want fuel efficiency. It does not necessarily mean that they can't afford the gas, just that they want better fuel efficiency. In addition, CAFE regulations, you probably know all about that.
Many people don't drive their cars 'to the ground' and they do buy/lease, most likely more ofter then they should, but they do get new cars. At that point they might choose more fuel efficient models.

The new Impreza compares well to other cars in this segment. +/- ~10HP and gets comparable MPG. If you want more power, you can still get the WRX.
The older (base) Impreza was, let's admit it, a gas-guzzler and is not any quicker. The archaic 4AT was horrible.

I think the new (non-WRX) Impreza is about right. I wish it could be a tad quicker. MPG is great and so is the price.

On the other hand, the XV, despite it's low weight, seems too slow and needing the 2.5 (or better, Diesel). However, even the Outback 2.5 is not fast, nor is the base Forester and those are very popular vehicles. It's likely it will do well.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:18 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by brettjr25 View Post
I disagree with this. It depends on the car. Is fuel economy desired on compact cars? Yes. If the Impreza wants to compete with other cars in its class then it has to take the hit in hp but for an AWD CrossOver. No, not in my opinion. People expect to have lower fuel economy for a trade off in power, it's why they chose it. The XV makes no sense to me. If someone wants fuel economy a decent amount of room, then the Impreza five door is for them.

Me..well as soon as I saw this I fell in love with it but the 148hp is making me second guess it now.
The Impreza sits too low. I want ground clearance and fuel economy.
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Old 12-15-2011, 11:35 PM   #261
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Absolutely. Fuel economy is more important than power.
But why can't we have both fuel economy and power? Why does it have to be either or. I'm not asking for 300hp with 45mpg.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:04 AM   #262
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Wow, wait until the offroad crowd their hands on this.
That would be nice.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:29 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
But why can't we have both fuel economy and power? Why does it have to be either or. I'm not asking for 300hp with 45mpg.


I agree. Other manufacturers are making engines with more HP and more fuel economy. I don't see why Subaru couldn't at least keep the same HP and get more economy.

For example the Jeep Wrangler gained over 80 (39%) horsepower and 2 (10%) miles per galon from 2011 to 2012.

I know subaru was not going to be happy with 2 more MPG but imagine how many more MPG's Chrysler could have gotten if there goal was a 0% increase in HP. Subaru on the other hand went backwards with their engine.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:41 AM   #264
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0-60 in 10.7s is like Prius slow. Imagine having 2-3 buddies with for a ski trip to the mountains with skis/snowboards in the roof and gear in the back and trying to pass on a steep section of road at elevation. Lol. This car needs more powa!!
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:07 AM   #265
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the wife can't wait til 2013 for the XV so were getting her a 2012 impreza. she loves the ride height of my outback so to get the impreza as high as the XV is it just bigger tires and forester springs?
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Old 12-16-2011, 02:24 AM   #266
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I want to hate on the hp some more but I think this thing is just gorgeous, especially in silver (I hope it comes in a dark navy blue). After jumping back and forward between trading in my Impreza to get a 2012 Impreza, or a Legacy or a WRX. I've decided on this (as long as the brakes work =/ ). My gf can get a fiat 500, this will be the future kid car (badass looking snow destroying kid car).

My minds made up. When it comes out I'll be in perfect position to get it too. I'll be moved into my new home and have plenty enough to save up for the downpayment on top of my 10K trade in value or most likely 8.5K by then.
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Old 12-16-2011, 03:31 PM   #267
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0-60 in 10.7s is like Prius slow. Imagine having 2-3 buddies with for a ski trip to the mountains with skis/snowboards in the roof and gear in the back and trying to pass on a steep section of road at elevation. Lol. This car needs more powa!!
Yup! Don't forget, if you're taking this car on a ski trip, I assume you're going somplace with an altitude above sea level; guess what is going to happen if to your power if you're in somplace like Colorado, and anyplace above 5000ASL. That's about what my dear departed 106hp 1998 Civic would do with 2 full size adults in it, with the air conditioning on.

Great looking vehicle, and I would love to have it IF it came with a real motor that wasn't designed to make the bare minimum numbers needed just so it can make it up hill in the wind.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:10 PM   #268
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I agree. Other manufacturers are making engines with more HP and more fuel economy. I don't see why Subaru couldn't at least keep the same HP and get more economy.

For example the Jeep Wrangler gained over 80 (39%) horsepower and 2 (10%) miles per galon from 2011 to 2012.

I know subaru was not going to be happy with 2 more MPG but imagine how many more MPG's Chrysler could have gotten if there goal was a 0% increase in HP. Subaru on the other hand went backwards with their engine.
I agree too, only that Wrangler was basically rock bottom MPG, such that +2 MPGs is still at miserable territory.
It seems to me Subaru does not yet know how to make a fuel-efficient turbo and their Diesel engine premium in the US will be too deterring to most consumers.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:19 PM   #269
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their Diesel engine premium in the US will be too deterring to most consumers.
How do they know unless they tried? Has Subaru ever offered a diesel in the past 10yrs here? Diesel technology has changed a lot. Even in America there are many who would now consider a diesel who wouldn't have otherwise. Just look at this forum and the call for the turbo diesel to come to America. I realize the cost of getting another engine is costly for Subaru, but if Mazda can do it, why can't Subaru?
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:09 PM   #270
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How do they know unless they tried? Has Subaru ever offered a diesel in the past 10yrs here? Diesel technology has changed a lot. Even in America there are many who would now consider a diesel who wouldn't have otherwise. Just look at this forum and the call for the turbo diesel to come to America. I realize the cost of getting another engine is costly for Subaru, but if Mazda can do it, why can't Subaru?
I definitely don't positively know, just guessing.
SOA does consumer surveys which, if done right, could tell them if it will work or not.
Note that Mazda's Diesel premium, actual price still TBD, should be less because they avoided after treatment as well as engine heft associated with some other Diesels.
Automotive magazines and enthusiast forums do not qualify statistically to get correct information. If they were, most cars would be manual+diesel.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:06 PM   #271
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I realize the cost of getting another engine is costly for Subaru, but if Mazda can do it, why can't Subaru?
Part of the reason would be because Mazda is a bigger brand with a bigger pocketbook.

The hybrid (next fall?) and the new Impreza (and maybe XV Crosstrek depending on drivetrain) should put Subaru on their way to meeting the CAFE targets, and the price of gas is not staying high (at least while the economy's slow). I wouldn't mind seeing a diesel in Subaru's lineup, but I don't expect it any time soon. I could see it eventually happening on a larger model that might see more family vacations, like Tribeca or Outback, where you could tow and get extended range.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:16 PM   #272
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You guys need to read these quotes from SOA Blog from the following thread last year (bold emphasis is added):

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...0#post30576230

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOA Blog View Post
As we've been saying for a while - we'd love to bring diesel in, but the numbers aren't there right now. We're still watching and waiting.
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Originally Posted by SOA Blog View Post
Sales numbers - VW TDi is doing ok, and X5 has some numbers, but it's a small, small pool, and the cost of certification for such low sales volume means that viability just isn't there right now - but we're still watching.
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Originally Posted by SOA Blog View Post
No, we're waiting for there to be "enough" potential customers. We hope a tide will turn but it's not looking good.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2009...NEWS/906299987
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Originally Posted by SOA Blog View Post
Well, we're not going to get into specifics, and yes we do our own research too, and that article was one we happened to have at hand (although the situation is about the same now as it was then). Believe us, we love diesel too, but it's a tough sell as a business case right now. But nothing's definite, and that's why we are watching.
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:57 AM   #273
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Part of the reason would be because Mazda is a bigger brand with a bigger pocketbook.
Is that true. This shows Subaru actually selling more than Mazda here in the US:

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:05 AM   #274
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I might be delusional but still hold that if Mazda could do it, so could Subaru.
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:26 AM   #275
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Is that true. This shows Subaru actually selling more than Mazda here in the US:

http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pag...autosales.html
Yes, Subaru has recently surpassed Mazda in US marketshare, but globally Mazda is a much larger manufacturer. In 2009, Mazda produced over 1.2 million vehicles, compared to Subaru with under 500,000. Probably about 80% of Subaru's sales come from the US and Japan. Marketshare is strong in Australia, but the population's so small it doesn't add up to much. Europe is very weak, and there are many places where Subaru has little to no presence at all. (For example, Mexico - 112 million population - has roughly a dozen dealerships in the entire country. There are a similar number of dealerships in Oregon - 4 million population.)
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