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Old 10-07-2012, 03:54 PM   #1176
subyski
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 53x12

This isn't being blown out of proportion. If anything this is all up to subjective opinions about what constitutes a proper vehicle for each of us. Some of us think this car is anemic and underpowered. Some of you think this car is properly powered and wonderful. That is fine. We are all able to have an opinion. Just means those of us who want the car to have more power won't buy it.

If anything, any car is completely based on our own definitions of what is enough power, enough mpg's, enough cargo room, enough good looks, priced just right...etc. None of us will agree on all of those variables. However, just because some of us believe this car is anemic and needs more power for what it will do, doesn't make us wrong for what we want in a car. Just like you guys are able to believe what you want regarding it being adequate.
In no way am I stating anyone is wrong on their opinions. I stated my opinion and providing my perspective as a driver at altitude. I provided some facts as a way to keep things in perspective with other Subaru offerings. In no way am I trying to state my opinions represents every high altitude driver, nor should it. I completely understand and respect people have different need, wants, and requirements on a car.

Many have an opinion that the vehicle is inadequate for high altitude and I provided opinion that the vehicle would be adequate at altitude. In addition, I don't discount anyone's opinion just because they don't live at altitude. This is good information for all if people have questions on whether to purchase or not.
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Last edited by subyski; 10-07-2012 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:56 PM   #1177
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Last Resort - Funny you should say that as my '12 Challenger just got wrecked two weeks ago (by a stop sign runner) and I ordered a Crosstrek yesterday.

I test drove the 5 speed and hated it, thought it was a slug and left the dealership and continued testing other new cars. I just wasn't prepared to go over $30k again, took an ugly $$ hit on the Challenger because it was 9 months old with 24k on the clock, so had to keep the cost of the new car down. I tested everything I could and came to the conclusion that unless I wanted to take a hit on the mpg's or bring the cost to an unsustainable level a lower HP car was in my future.

I went back to the Subie dealer and drove the Limited with the CVT and realized that being able to grab and hold a gear made the lower hp and torque numbers bearable. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to miss having 300+hp underfoot but hopefully all the things that the Crosstrek can do (like going mt biking or skiing with racks on the roof or hitch) will help me get over it. 30+mpg won't hurt either...
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:21 PM   #1178
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Anyone know if the xv has more headroom? I test drove both the impreza and xv and in crosstreck not only did I sit higher but it seemed to have more headroom. The dealer didn't know.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:57 PM   #1179
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Originally Posted by Kameha View Post
Anyone know if the xv has more headroom? I test drove both the impreza and xv and in crosstreck not only did I sit higher but it seemed to have more headroom. The dealer didn't know.
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http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/xv-cr...cle-specs.html

http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impre...cle-specs.html
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:41 PM   #1180
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Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
drove the Limited with the CVT and realized that being able to grab and hold a gear made the lower hp and torque numbers bearable.
Since when can't you grab and hold a gear with a stick??!!-lol
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:42 PM   #1181
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Since when can't you grab and hold a gear with a stick??!!-lol
I think he meant being able to pick an RPM, say 4k, and hold it all the way to 60mph.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:03 PM   #1182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kameha View Post
Anyone know if the xv has more headroom? I test drove both the impreza and xv and in crosstreck not only did I sit higher but it seemed to have more headroom. The dealer didn't know.
Did the Impreza you drove have a sunroof? They're the exact same car.. one has a body lift, lower final gearing and some plastic fender extenders.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:42 AM   #1183
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
You are forgetting that car is also putting out ~240-250 lb-ft @1500-1600 rpm. Not 145 lb-ft @ 4200rpm. Big difference. Guess you also don't live or play at elevation?

Exactly. Unfortunately those living and playing at sea level don't understand.
And I would be forgetting that how? My mother's Tdi which I referenced above used to be my tdi. I'm one of the few in the US with direct experience with such cars. And you're forgetting that only the most recent 2.0l diesel engines make 200+ ft-lb. As recently as 2006 the VW Tdi made 100 hp and 180 ft-lb.

Horsepower is horsepower. It's the transmission's job to multiply flywheel torque into driveshaft torque. Thus my comments about winding the engine out. Those diesels you reference have much taller gearing than an equivalent gasoline car. Don't get me wrong, I love the diesel power band for daily driving, but gasoline engines have their merits too, not least among them reliability and cost.

Performance at elevation has much more to do with forced induction than raw horsepower. And, yes, I do play a great deal at elevation. In fact we used a 2010 Outback 2.5 CVT for a ski trip a couple of years ago. Four people + gear inside, roof box on top. It was fine, same power:weight as a Crosstrek.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:46 AM   #1184
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And I would be forgetting that how? My mother's Tdi which I referenced above used to be my tdi. I'm one of the few in the US with direct experience with such cars. And you're forgetting that only the most recent 2.0l diesel engines make 200+ ft-lb. As recently as 2006 the VW Tdi made 100 hp and 180 ft-lb.

Horsepower is horsepower. It's the transmission's job to multiply flywheel torque into driveshaft torque. Thus my comments about winding the engine out. Those diesels you reference have much taller gearing than an equivalent gasoline car. Don't get me wrong, I love the diesel power band for daily driving, but gasoline engines have their merits too, not least among them reliability and cost.

Performance at elevation has much more to do with forced induction than raw horsepower. And, yes, I do play a great deal at elevation. In fact we used a 2010 Outback 2.5 CVT for a ski trip a couple of years ago. Four people + gear inside, roof box on top. It was fine, same power:weight as a Crosstrek.
The Outback weighs a bit over ~12% more, but has ~25% more power. It isn't the same power:weight ratio.

Also as weight is added into the car, the power:weight ratio of the XV gets worse much faster than the ratio of the Outback.

Last edited by ocellaris; 10-08-2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:49 PM   #1185
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This is pointless to argue over guys! Some people feel it's adequately powered others that it isn't. Let's agree to disagree and move on.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:55 PM   #1186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocellaris

The Outback weighs a bit over ~12% more, but has ~25% more power. It isn't the same power:weight ratio.

Also as weight is added into the car, the power:weight ratio of the XV gets worse much faster than the ratio of the Outback.
Actually they are pretty close. The XV CVT (3150lbs) is roughly 21.3 lb/hp while the Outback 2.5i CVT (3450lbs) is 19.9 lb/hp (EDIT: for new FB25 power ratings). Also, consider that since the Outback has more cargo capacity, theoretically, it can carry more weight vs the XV.

Last edited by subyski; 10-08-2012 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:07 PM   #1187
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Originally Posted by gravitylover View Post
Last Resort - Funny you should say that as my '12 Challenger just got wrecked two weeks ago (by a stop sign runner) and I ordered a Crosstrek yesterday.

I test drove the 5 speed and hated it, thought it was a slug ..
I went back to the Subie dealer and drove the Limited with the CVT and realized that being able to grab and hold a gear made the lower hp and torque numbers bearable.
Actually per Subaru data 0-100Km/hr for the manual is 9.8 sec and for the CVT it's 10.7 sec. Neither one is a rocket but of the two the CVT is the slug.
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:10 PM   #1188
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This is pointless to argue over guys! Some people feel it's adequately powered others that it isn't. Let's agree to disagree and move on.
In some cases, people are discussing this because this because they are potential buyers...
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:19 AM   #1189
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Originally Posted by subyski View Post
Actually they are pretty close. The XV CVT (3150lbs) is roughly 21.3 lb/hp while the Outback 2.5i CVT (3450lbs) is 19.9 lb/hp (EDIT: for new FB25 power ratings). Also, consider that since the Outback has more cargo capacity, theoretically, it can carry more weight vs the XV.
Note that makes Crosstrek's hp/weight ratio about 7% worse than Outback's. Enough to be noticeable? *shrug*
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:44 AM   #1190
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7 percent worse than the slow base Outback 2.5i that nobody expects to be a speed demon, either.

So, basically slower than slow.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:13 AM   #1191
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The outback 2.5 is 7% faster. So? What is your point? Who (other than you) cares? Stop complaining and let people buy what they want to buy instead of pontificating about what you don't like.

I'm willing to bet you can't refrain from complaining about the XV/Crosstek, in any way, shape, or form until we see the sales numbers for Oct. and let the numbers speak. People want this car. Let them buy it. Stop treating it as an affront to your way of life.

--kC
(P.s. I'll be in Iowa this weekend. I'm going to aim at every GRP legacy I see. Shouldn't be many, and I'll have rental car insurance.)
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:36 AM   #1192
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I test drove a XV on Saturday and I'll admit I liked the improvements over my wife's 2012 Imp. It handled better than I expected and rides a lot quietier.
With that said I still wish it had a little more grunt but it is in the running to replace my 09 WRX.

On another note how do I block someone? I've been on here for 10 years and have never done it. I can't handle HTBS's BS anymore.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:41 AM   #1193
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:47 AM   #1194
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Thanks KC.
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:57 AM   #1195
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On another note how do I block someone? I've been on here for 10 years and have never done it. I can't handle HTBS's BS anymore.
I've blocked him for some time, but it still breaks down when other ejits here take his troll-bait and quote him.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:00 AM   #1196
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Sometimes a problem just can't be ignored.

--kC
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:01 PM   #1197
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Which is why I don't even bother with the Ignore List. I tried it for about a week and got tired of "you can't read this because they're on your ignore list". I wish it wouldn't even show that they posted and would just leave gaps in numbers. Oh well. That person's not even around anymore, so I guess I won.

On-Topic:

I don't believe any of the Crosstreks coming in have the rear spoiler option installed. They just don't look right without them. However, I've seen pics of the rear spoiler bumping skis mounted on the racks, so I can see why it would be an option.

Has the Forester ever had this issue with its rear spoiler bumping roof-mounted items? It just seems like a silly problem.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:33 PM   #1198
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The one I saw at my dealer had it installed.

--kC
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:35 PM   #1199
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
The outback 2.5 is 7% faster. So? What is your point? Who (other than you) cares? Stop complaining and let people buy what they want to buy instead of pontificating about what you don't like.

I'm willing to bet you can't refrain from complaining about the XV/Crosstek, in any way, shape, or form until we see the sales numbers for Oct. and let the numbers speak. People want this car. Let them buy it. Stop treating it as an affront to your way of life.

--kC
(P.s. I'll be in Iowa this weekend. I'm going to aim at every GRP legacy I see. Shouldn't be many, and I'll have rental car insurance.)
Wait... are you complaining about people who complain?!

Just givin' ya a hard time.
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Old 10-09-2012, 01:55 PM   #1200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
The outback 2.5 is 7% faster. So? What is your point? Who (other than you) cares? Stop complaining and let people buy what they want to buy instead of pontificating about what you don't like.

I'm willing to bet you can't refrain from complaining about the XV/Crosstek, in any way, shape, or form until we see the sales numbers for Oct. and let the numbers speak. People want this car. Let them buy it. Stop treating it as an affront to your way of life.

--kC
(P.s. I'll be in Iowa this weekend. I'm going to aim at every GRP legacy I see. Shouldn't be many, and I'll have rental car insurance.)
What the hell did I ever do to you? especially with such a short comment that wasn't an attack on anyone, and just a statement of what is true.

All I was doing was giving context that the car that XV was being compared to was no speed demon, either... so it is slower than a car that is already slow, and not expected to be fast.

XV is not 7% disadvantaged on power to weight than the fastest Subaru Outback, let alone the fastest Subaru overall... it is 7% disadvantaged to the SLOWEST Outback model Subaru offers.

And ANY Subaru enthusiast who wants a Subaru that performs well should be disappointed with the milquetoast that Subaru is becoming in their whole lineup aside from the aged WRX/STI, and the non-AWD, also not very quick BRZ, merely acceptably quick to some who choose to accept a 7+ second 0-60 capability, and it's implications for evasive driving in the real world.

I have a low-power, high-handling-capability car in my garage. I know how badly it can handle highway maneuvers in avoidance of other idiot drivers at high speeds. My Legacy can evade moron drivers who have 'aimed at me', or not been paying attention, much better than my Miata can, because the Legacy can MOVE. Lateral handling at 60+mph on a narrow roadway can only move you side to side on that narrow strip of pavement. Power can get you much more distance along the road's length, and right when you need to create that distance. Grip allows use of that power.

XV doesn't even have the light weight, high-handling-level excuse... and still has barely more horsepower than my '99 Miata, and XV weighs almost 600lbs more with just 4 more horses than a car with an iron block engine from the 1980s. 148 horsepower is ridiculous for a 3000lb+ vehicle with any motive to be construed as "sporty" in either an outdoors or motorsports context. That is an 'economy car' figure, at best.

Everybody interested in automotive performance should be wanting more performance from Subaru's current lineup, and not making them think that any and every decision they make is infallible, because it isn't.

And making threats is beneath you, and against forum rules.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-09-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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