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Old 10-09-2012, 02:03 PM   #1201
keepclam
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^The 6-cyl models keep getting more powerful. At least there's that.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:32 PM   #1202
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Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
^The 6-cyl models keep getting more powerful. At least there's that.
More powerful, but probably rarer. Tribeca is on the verge of cancellation, and Subaru is likely pushing 2.5i CVT Outbacks and especially Legacys for CAFE fleet averages. They have had issues keeping up with demand with the EZ36 in the Legacy and Outback... and Tribeca inventory levels are infinitesimally small, like Legacy GT inventories, before they became order-only, and then finally cancelled.

And no Subaru H6 has come with a manual gearbox behind it on the US market since the Subaru XT6, and I am not even 100% positive that the XT6 had a manual gearbox option. Nothing after the SVX has carried an H6 with much of any performance inclination on the US market.

It isn't as if the US ever got the Legacy 3.0R Spec.B 6-speed, or the Legacy Blitzen 3.0R that Japan/Australia/New Zealand at least had the chance to buy. FHI has done it... just not in the US.


Subaru would do well to de-stroke the EZ36 back to 3.2-3.4 liters, tune it up with D-4S injection, Dual AVCS, and Valvematic valve lift, and start putting that as a performance engine in the FRS/BRZ, and the XV Crosstrek, and the Forester as well... with a nice tall overdrive for highway MPG at ~2100 rpms.

EZ36's block with the same bore size, de-stroked to FA20's 86mm stroke length, and straight con-rods, would yield 3.4 liters on an over-square, smooth spinning, well balanced H6 engine. Anywhere even CLOSE to 100hp/liter would put it in the hp territory of the competitions' high feature V6 engines... Ford, Hyundai, GM, Nissan, even Lexus' tunes of some of the Toyota-family V6s.

310-340hp free spinning, no-lagging horsepower in a 2900lb RWD sport coupe, or a 3100lb AWD XV Crosstrek, would make for VERY good performers, and probably class-leaders in their respective classes. With less external complexity and fewer failure points than an FA20DIT or and EJ257, with more near-idle latent torque, even if less outright peak torque.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-09-2012 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 02:46 PM   #1203
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^Always loved the Blitzen Legacies.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:15 PM   #1204
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The Crosstrek isn't meant for ENTHUSIASTS. There is where the line is drawn. Subaru is appealing to NEW customers. You know this, and you're angry. I agree, but not much we can do until Subaru gets a better handle on the tech that enthusiasts want. I'm hoping FB engines will fill that need since Subaru seems to be excited about them once again and Americans are beginning to accept the advantages of smaller displacement once again.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:22 PM   #1205
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The problem is... barely ANY Subarus are for enthusiasts... fewer every year.

XV Crosstrek 2.5 could have been better than 2.0L, and still appealed to new customers. Probably MORE new customers by not being anemic.

A higher performance XV Crosstrek with an FA20DIT, or EZ34 that I suggested, could ALSO still appeal to enthusiasts.

And who's to say there aren't enthusiasts out there who are not yet Subaru customers, that could BE new Subaru enthusiast customers. Enthusiasts who want something smaller than a new HUGE Explorer, or a Suburban, or other full-size SUVs, but don't want to step all the way down to a put-along little economy car with increased ride height.

XV could have been that middle ground... but it is a 2 liter economy car with higher ride height. Forester XT isn't filling the role either. At least ONE of them should, preferably BOTH.

I don't want them to ignore the advantages of adequate or superior POWER. It allows a wider spread of gearing as well. There isn't much for the advantage list of smaller displacement, if it is too underpowered for the vehicle's weight and role.... having to put your boot to the throttle all the time to get the car to move even modestly will not meet the EPA test cycle rated MPGs anyway.... just more disappointment.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #1206
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They have had issues keeping up with demand with the EZ36 in the Legacy and Outback
At the price these cars are in, there are other, better, alternatives in the price point. No one wants something that gets on average 5-10mpg less per gallon than a comparatively priced/optioned/configured car. There is no demand, people don't want them.

Quote:
Subaru is likely pushing 2.5i CVT Outbacks and especially Legacys for CAFE fleet averages
and then you go on...

Quote:
Subaru would do well to de-stroke the EZ36 back to 3.2-3.4 liters, tune it up with D-4S injection, Dual AVCS, and Valvematic valve lift,
There's a couple problems with your idea. The biggest being that engine would only work in one specific market, the US (with a nod to the possibility of very limited runs in other countries). Subaru, growing every year into a bigger global brand, and in the need to reach a broader market, have to have engines that work EVERYWHERE. Not just certified for use in one location.

What Subaru would end up with is a 28mpg car with 240-250hp that costs north of $40k, for one specific market... the US/North America.

I can think of a whole slew of other cars that get better mileage, that have AWD, that cost less.

Another thing is the CAFE mention. When there's the demand to meet ever increasing CAFE demands, bigger engines, less efficient engines get pushed out in favor of more efficient, but less powerful engines to bring the averages up to meet goals.

It's a cost of doing business in the US. Why do you think Subaru needs to expand down south? This expansion allows them to increase sales which increases the number of efficent car averages. The smaller the market, the bigger chunk the less efficient engines occupy.

Spreading them out more with increased sales of more efficient engines brings up that average. And they have to do that with globalized engines. Not only for emissions, but because of certification testing of those engines in various countries. The smaller the number of engine configurations to spread across the range, the more money the company can save, the more places they can sell those items, and whatnot. Economies of scale.

Many other manufacturers are downsizing their engines from 8s to 6s and 6s to 4s so on, but adding Turbos. Subaru knows turbos. So why spend more $$ towards working on an H6 when an H4 is more efficient and is your bread and butter?

Development of a Subaru "boutique" H6 for a single market will not be happening any time soon. World wide increases in gas prices, demands for greater fuel economy and CAFE here in the US have all but ensured that.

So I'll say it again... stop vomiting on your keyboard with your 'wishes'. Let it go.

--kC
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:38 PM   #1207
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
The problem is... barely ANY Subarus are for enthusiasts... fewer every year.
WRX? WRX STi? BRZ?

Yeah. Barely any, just 3 of 9. 33.3% of the range. I agree. Barely any are.

Especially when Subaru in the past usually only had one at any given point in time until recently (past 10 years or so they had about 4 of 11/12 if you count the various Legacy Blitzens and Baja Turbos).

Maybe they learned from their mistake of having too many and cut back?

--kC
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Old 10-09-2012, 04:29 PM   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare
XV Crosstrek 2.5 could have been better than 2.0L, and still appealed to new customers. Probably MORE new customers by not being anemic.
Putting the FB25 in the XV would be a better choice but this would create too much overlap with the current Forester and generate less mpg vs the 2.0i. I do think they should offer it as an optional engine choice.

But the whole point of the XV 2.0i is mpg and the light truck classification by the EPA despite being a lifted Impreza. This has a huge impact on CAFE requirements. It also taps the all important crossover market and creates the campaign of "The most fuel efficient AWD Crossover in America" which resonates loudly among the general public. Putting the 2.0i in the slightly larger Forester would be worse, so the XV fills this gap without stepping on the Impreza hatch and Forester too much.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:36 PM   #1209
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WRX? WRX STi? BRZ?

Yeah. Barely any, just 3 of 9. 33.3% of the range. I agree. Barely any are.

Especially when Subaru in the past usually only had one at any given point in time until recently (past 10 years or so they had about 4 of 11/12 if you count the various Legacy Blitzens and Baja Turbos).

Maybe they learned from their mistake of having too many and cut back?

--kC
WRX and WRX STI are trim models of the same vehicle, because you aren't counting other trim lines of other models, if your total is NINE. And before 2012, WRX and STI were trim lines of the existing Impreza, and would be counted as an Impreza variant, further reducing the total.

Now WRX and STI are hold-overs from that previous chassis, and the ONLY Subaru AWD performance hold out.

BRZ is not AWD, and cannot be. As far as I am concerned, it is a Toyota built for them by Subaru. A good handling car in it's own right, but disqualified from being compared with Subaru AWD performance cars, without as much traction versatility, or as much power.

Legacy GT was a better performer, it is now gone.

Outback XT was similarly a better performer, ALSO now gone.

Forester XT used to be a better performer, when it had less weight, and a manual gearbox option. The drivetrain has not kept up with expectations, LET ALONE stepped up into the vacuum that Outback XT and Legacy GT have left in their wake.

Forester XT is a losing competitor to other CUVs with V6 power on the options list, not a performance model at all. Brakes, Suspension, Drivetrain, Aesthetics... nothing suggests performance, and a turbo under the hood doesn't make up for the lack, especially not at 230hp like the automatic Impreza GT had.

Counting WRX and WRX STI as a variant of ONE model left on the GR platform, and discounting BRZ from the discussion about Subaru AWD performance...

There is ONE Subaru performance model, out of 8 AWD models, that is serious about AWD performance.

1: Impreza & Sport.
2: XV Crosstrek
3: Forester and XT
4: Legacy 2.5i and 3.6R
5: Outback 2.5i and 3.6R
6: Tribeca
7: WRX and WRX STI. ****
8: Exiga, if we're counting things that aren't available at all in the US.

Even if you count 9:
9: BRZ

Then that is still only 2 performance cars out of 9. That would be 22%.

There should be at least 3-4 AWD performance variants, which would still only be barely approaching HALF. XV, Forester, and Legacy should at least have some sort of performance variant that is more involved than just a low-tune turbo engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
At the price these cars are in, there are other, better, alternatives in the price point. *No one wants something that gets on average 5-10mpg less per gallon than a comparatively priced/optioned/configured car. There is no demand, people don't want them.
Most DFI 6-cylinder engines do NOT get 10mpg less than a similarly powered Turbo 4, even a direct-injected turbo.

And it seems like a lot of people still buy vehicles with engines larger than 4-cylinders, and lots of them still order smaller, lighter vehicles, with more amenities. Just because people down-size out of a Suburban doesn't mean they want a stripped down golf-cart for the road.

Quote:
There's a couple problems with your idea. The biggest being that engine would only work in one specific market, the US (with a nod to the possibility of very limited runs in other countries). Subaru, growing every year into a bigger global brand, and in the need to reach a broader market, have to have engines that work EVERYWHERE. Not just certified for use in one location.

What Subaru would end up with is a 28mpg car with 240-250hp that costs north of $40k, for one specific market... the US/North America.
WHAT? There are plenty of 6-cylinder cars that are sold all over the world, and it is not like I was asking Subaru to STOP building H4s or H4 Turbos.

The engine I describe should be even MORE capable than the Ford TiVCT 3.7 liter to get over 31 mph highway, especially in most Subarus that are less than 3500lbs.

And in a BRZ, it would BEAT the power to weight ratio of a Mustang V6, Genesis V6, or a 370Z if it were tuned for 320hp or more. If FA20 can make 200hp out of 2 liters, there is no reason that an EZ34 as I described it, shouldn't be able to match a Porsche M97 3.2 liter, with 320 hp, and the same variable valve timing and direct fuel injection specifications. There is nothing overly exotic in a Porsche Boxster S engine, that an EZ Subaru engine isn't capable of... and it is the rest of the car's fit and finish, and Porsche's reputation that pushes the price to what it is.

Quote:
Another thing is the CAFE mention. When there's the demand to meet ever increasing CAFE demands, bigger engines, less efficient engines get pushed out in favor of more efficient, but less powerful engines to bring the averages up to meet goals.*

Many other manufacturers are downsizing their engines from 8s to 6s and 6s to 4s so on, but adding Turbos. Subaru knows turbos. So why spend more $$ towards working on an H6 when an H4 is more efficient and is your bread and butter?*

Development of a Subaru "boutique" H6 for a single market will not be happening any time soon. World wide increases in gas prices, demands for greater fuel economy and CAFE here in the US have all but ensured that.*
Subaru needs new customers to keep up it's sales numbers. New customers down-sizing out of other brands of V8s. They are not going to down-size all the way down to 148 horsepower in the Impreza and XV Crosstrek.

Hell that, and the FXT's 230hp and auto-only are making it FAR too hard of a decision to step into a new Subaru, compared to my AccessPort tuned Legacy GT, let alone a different brand of vehicle with 300+ horsepower.

Plus... My H6 SVX gets better than 30mpg on the highway, for two reasons... a tall overdrive that allows a torquey H6 to cruise at a nice quiet 2100RPMs at highway speed, and superior aerodynamics. And with that... 75mph, maybe even 80mph if it were allowed, would cut more time than it would increase fuel use for the additional speed. The engine RPMS rise at a lower rate with the tall overdrive, and the aero drag also rises at a lower rate than less aerodynamic cars.

A turbo 4 cannot cruise that far below boost level. My Legacy GT cruises north of 3000RPMs, and buzzes and drones while it does it, to keep the engine near the point where the turbo lag is minimized.

An atmospheric 4-cylinder is working even harder to maintain that speed, plus working harder to move the car in stop and go traffic, too.

People are being SOLD a line that isn't automatically true, that lower power means better mileage. BETTER GEARING CHOICE means better mileage, and torque in reserve means that you can actually respond to situations in traffic.

A power deficit at highway speeds is a SAFETY ISSUE. As in a car that is too weak to perform evasively, including acceleration, is not as safe as it should be, let alone being no fun whatsoever.

But evidently it is a ban-worthy offense to keep saying that I would ultimately prefer an AWD H6 powered Grand Touring Coupe with superior traction to 2WD, superior power and low-end torque to a 4-cylinder, superior smooth refinement to a buzzy little econobox, superior aerodynamics, and superior style to boxier body-styles.

I am trying to move on from that... and move into a realm that Subaru IS participating in, with CUVS... cars classified as light trucks for the sake of the government's misguided central planning.

Subaru is only going to offer Light Truck classified vehicles, aside from a standard economy car (Impreza), and a standard sedan (Legacy) that no mainstream company can do without offering, and a little coupe built at Toyota's behest, and partial cost.

So if all they'll build is taller vehicles... I want a taller vehicle that can still bloody well get out of it's own way! So people can buy their little golf carts for the road... vehicles that you just push pedals and steer.

I still drive, and I expect a car that can be driven.

Last edited by HipToBeSquare; 10-09-2012 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:22 PM   #1210
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Well HTBS sure writes some epic posts... However I definitely agree with him/her on the fact that manufactures are downsizing for better EPA numbers when they could be sticking with larger engines and taller gearing that perform better in real world driving.

EPA testing is done in a lab with no hills and no real wind resistance. The results don't always translate into reality when people are often ascending or fighting a headwind close to 50% of the time in some areas. Plus they don't account for the fact that added weight has a large affect on smaller engines compared to larger once. And they don't factor in E10 gas which many people are forced to use.

Went on a trip with a few people and some gear in a Honda Fit once. It got less than 30 MPG from its 1.5L engine, almost all highway, and no speeding. Real eye opener right there.

Last edited by ocellaris; 10-09-2012 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:05 PM   #1211
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well im just looking for a daily for my wife - something a little taller than the impreza, thats safe, reliable, gets decent mpgs and that looks good (imho it does) - the crosstrek fits the bill
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:54 PM   #1212
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Originally Posted by ocellaris View Post
Well HTBS sure writes some epic posts... However I definitely agree with him/her on the fact that manufactures are downsizing for better EPA numbers when they could be sticking with larger engines and taller gearing that perform better in real world driving.

EPA testing is done in a lab with no hills and no real wind resistance. The results don't always translate into reality when people are often ascending or fighting a headwind close to 50% of the time in some areas. Plus they don't account for the fact that added weight has a large affect on smaller engines compared to larger once. And they don't factor in E10 gas which many people are forced to use.

Went on a trip with a few people and some gear in a Honda Fit once. It got less than 30 MPG from its 1.5L engine, almost all highway, and no speeding. Real eye opener right there.
The other week I went driving around with a friend in a Honda Fit all night for about 3.5 hours and it was getting 40 mpg.

Also my 2012 Impreza loaner was getting 29 mpg city and was well above 1k miles on the odo.

The BRZ is rated at 22 mpg city and people are getting between 24-27 mpg consistently.

These numbers be driving me crazy! Basically, though, I hope the Crosstrek does better, on average, than what it promises. Like you said, it'll depend on the real world.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:06 AM   #1213
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
A power deficit at highway speeds is a SAFETY ISSUE. As in a car that is too weak to perform evasively, including acceleration, is not as safe as it should be, let alone being no fun whatsoever.
You are a first class moron. I am sorry to be so blunt. But car with far fewer HP and torque have been driving on the roads for DECADES. We had an 84 4 door toyota tercel with 4wd (not AWD mind you , there as a huge heavy transfer case from a truck under that thing). It had 87 HP when NEW and less torque. Yet we managed to drive it from Louisiana to Oregon several times and lived to tell the tale! That was with a family of 4 and one Pomapoo.

Yes, the XV is not a performance car. Yet it was never billed as such. It is a fun go anywhere car that just happens to get good mileage. Oh the horror!

Also, you keep moaning about people complaining about you saying AWD coupe all the time.

Do you think WE DO NOT KNOW BY NOW that is what you want. Do you think we are dumb. You post it in every single thread you make. YES we know you want an AWD coupe.

We See HipToBeSquare and we know by default "oh this is the guy who wants an AWD coupe".

You don't have to say it anymore. WE know

We know



We know



We really really get it. You want an AWD coupe. It is a given. Every post you write it is written in the context that you want an AWD coupe.

Please stop morphing every car in the world with ignorant and simplistic theories how it could 'cheaply' be made into an AWD coupe, which we know you want.

It is getting plain ridiculous at this point.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:16 AM   #1214
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^Specifically it's AWD coupe/hatch with sleek good looks but enough room, manual transmission, and ample power.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:04 AM   #1215
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When you rode in your tercel, where there as many 300-400hp full size SUVs, weighing anywhere between 2 and 6 tons, being driven by morons on their cellular telephones?

No. Most of the other cars back then also responded slower, and there were fewer driver distractions, and the weight differential was less between your car, and other cars.

Being able to escape and evade is ABSOLUTELY a safety issue. Defensive driving is a moot point if the car isn't capable.

I can ride a motorcycle without any safety gear, and live to tell the tale, too. That doesn't mean I do it. Dress for the accident, not the ride.

The same applies to specifying your car's capabilities. Specify the car for when you need the response the most, when the roads are slick, visibility is limited, the car is loaded down with your family, and you need to avoid a vehicle three times your weight, being driven by a moron, not the easiest, straightest, most un-loaded mile.

You can't avoid every accident... but it doesn't help any if you can, but the car CAN'T avoid it because the car can't respond properly to an attentive driver's commands. I'll take any advantage I can get, which is why I like adequately powerful, manually shifted, AWD cars with proper brakes, suspension, and tires.

If you don't think that evasive capabilities are a safety issue, and if you think the roads are populated by the same vehicles, and the same driver mentalities now as they were in 1984, you need to spew those names into a mirror, not at me.

And you might as well go buy a 2WD econobox. Some people drive those... and live to tell about it, after all.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:24 AM   #1216
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Being able to escape and evade is ABSOLUTELY a safety issue. Defensive driving is a moot point if the car isn't capable.
Wait.....the early 2000's outback that I drive my children around in (with 21 lbs/hp) is a safety issue? Perhaps you should contact CPS and have me arrested for negligence. force subaru to crush all existing vehicles, and force congress to pass a law limiting lbs/hp only save values of 10lbs/hp. Or, perhaps, you should address your rectal/cranial inversion and realize that a lot of people are completely fine driving on the roald with 21 lbs/hp+ because they aren't complete idiots behind the wheel and drive within the limits of the car, observer there surrounds, and again: aren't complete idiots behind the wheel.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:40 AM   #1217
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Every post you write it is written in the context that you want an AWD H6 with over 250hp that gets 28mpg coupe.
Fixed.

He goes on about coupes, more power and low end (H6s), coupled with AWD. Power = Safety. Ok buddy. Not even gonna touch that one, never mind that Subaru makes some of the safest cars on the planet that DON'T NEED POWER to be so.

Look Hip To BS, That's Audi A6, BMW 330 with xDrive, and Mercedes C350 (or E350) with 4Motion territory, and PRICE. Subaru does not have the market share... YET... to offer a pedestrian interior car at Luxury car prices. No one wants it. Yet, what you incessantly pontificate about is for a $35k-$40k (or more!!!) car from Subaru. They're NOT THAT KIND OF COMPANY! They're an outdoorsy, do anything, get anywhere, active lifestyle company. Keeping things SIMPLE as a company is a great move forward to success. Spreading yourself thin by offering boutique items? Not so much.

They TRIED dipping their toes in the water in upscale/bedroom suburbia with the Tribeca. Didn't work. Not making the needed market share to keep the platform alive much longer. It's better to cut the cord and distribute the talent elsewhere to markets and product lines that DO work, and more importantly people can associate with and will spend their hard earned dollars on.

In a country with 311 million people, selling 75,000-100,000 units for $18k (Impreza) makes more money than 2,000 units at $40k, which is what the number of sales would need to be if you had your ideal car, on a GOOD year... the Tribeca is on that pace, but even CHEAPER.



No. You'll ignore these facts and just keep pontificating (vomiting keyboard tantrums) as you have for the past 2-3 years about AWD coupe H6s that have unneeded power.

I'm done. You're back on ignore.

--kC
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:23 AM   #1218
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Just adding this to the fire because its entertaining.
HTBS- when i'm loaded my truck weighs 40000lbs, and only has 240 hp. According to your logic, i'm too slow and dangerous to be on the road because I can't protect myself from douche mustang driver?

KC- couldn't agree with you more. We leased a tribeca and it just became too expensive so we dumped it and got an outback . People that buy Subarus seem to be lower maintenance ,outdoorsy,do everything people like you said. They aren't looking for all the bells and whistles that drive up costs.

My crosstrek is on order, and can't wait to for it to get here.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:07 AM   #1219
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Holding on my car for as long as I can, don't think Subaru (or anybody else) will make something like it ever again.

With that said, Subaru's standard offerings drive too much like beige appliances. Something on par with how the Mazda3/CX-5 feels behind the wheel would be good enough for a DD for me. Perhaps bring back the RS/GT/XT trims?

Impreza RS with DI 2.0 or latest 2.5L combined with some WRX steering/braking and suspension bits perhaps? Crosstrek XT with similar setup?

As far as the turbo engines go, getting DI/dualscroll turbo on them would go a long way in helping their fuel economy numbers as well as keep them competitive in the market.

Also wouldn't be surprised if we do see the Subaru diesel in some form within the next few years along with hybrids.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:57 AM   #1220
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Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
The other week I went driving around with a friend in a Honda Fit all night for about 3.5 hours and it was getting 40 mpg.
The Fit definitely gets great MPG most of the time. And I like the car, I wasn't trying to crap on it
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:07 PM   #1221
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The Fit definitely gets great MPG most of the time. And I like the car, I wasn't trying to crap on it
Sorry, it was more of an observational comment. I wasn't really "defending" it, per se. haha Not a Honda Fit. Cute car, but that's about it.

At first I was kind of missing the power of my WRX compared to my new BRZ, but now I just realize it's all about how you use the power you have available to you. With a turbocharged 250+HP AWD vehicle, it's much easier for a less skilled person to get what they want. They can be more reactive.

I've always driven in a more opportunistic manner. I see where cars are positioned on the road, where the lights are, road conditions, and consider what I'm driving, my destination and time to determine how I'm going to negotiate the road. Hardly ever does someone get the drop on me. I guess that's considered driving defensively? I assume at any moment I could die, so I always try to remain aware. This is why I haven't been in an accident with another vehicle at anything higher than 10MPH EVER since I've been driving.

What I'm trying to say is this: My non-AWD 200HP BRZ has been performing fine. NO need to bash others for choosing to leave AWD and 250HP.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:40 PM   #1222
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Looking at the XV makes me really want to lift my 2.5i and put some beefy tires on it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:10 PM   #1223
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AltiMax ARTIC With a turbocharged 250+HP AWD vehicle, it's much easier for a less skilled person to get what they want.
Not to get into a pissing match over it, but I always thought I drove my less powerful 2.5 RS better than I could any of my WRXs, but that is just me. Saw one of the XVs at the dealer today...nice car. Not sure where the market is between it and a Forrester though.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:20 PM   #1224
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^ i think it sucks that you guys already have yours at the dealerships...
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:26 PM   #1225
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Not to get into a pissing match over it, but I always thought I drove my less powerful 2.5 RS better than I could any of my WRXs, but that is just me. Saw one of the XVs at the dealer today...nice car. Not sure where the market is between it and a Forrester though.
Oh, I 100% agree! I did things in my 2001 2.5 RS coupe that Subaru hadn't been able to replicate until the new BRZ! I just meant that people seem to be more reactive drivers, so having more horsepower and AWD at their disposal seems to counter-balance their lack of driving prowess or inability to properly anticipate a potential accident.

I think the XV just boils down to people that don't want a Forester, but want a raised Impreza if they're enjoying the looks of the new Impreza. I was REALLY surprised that my friends really wanted one once they saw it. No desire for an Impreza Sport or Forester, but for some reason they REALLY want the Crosstrek. They're in their 20's and coming from a Jeep Commanche (I think that's a model).
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