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Old 10-10-2012, 03:04 PM   #1226
gathermewool
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
When you rode in your tercel, where there as many 300-400hp full size SUVs, weighing anywhere between 2 and 6 tons, being driven by morons on their cellular telephones?

No. Most of the other cars back then also responded slower, and there were fewer driver distractions, and the weight differential was less between your car, and other cars.

Being able to escape and evade is ABSOLUTELY a safety issue. Defensive driving is a moot point if the car isn't capable.

I can ride a motorcycle without any safety gear, and live to tell the tale, too. That doesn't mean I do it. Dress for the accident, not the ride.

The same applies to specifying your car's capabilities. Specify the car for when you need the response the most, when the roads are slick, visibility is limited, the car is loaded down with your family, and you need to avoid a vehicle three times your weight, being driven by a moron, not the easiest, straightest, most un-loaded mile.

You can't avoid every accident... but it doesn't help any if you can, but the car CAN'T avoid it because the car can't respond properly to an attentive driver's commands. I'll take any advantage I can get, which is why I like adequately powerful, manually shifted, AWD cars with proper brakes, suspension, and tires.

If you don't think that evasive capabilities are a safety issue, and if you think the roads are populated by the same vehicles, and the same driver mentalities now as they were in 1984, you need to spew those names into a mirror, not at me.

And you might as well go buy a 2WD econobox. Some people drive those... and live to tell about it, after all.
I honestly enjoy most of your posts, but I've got to disagree with your assertion that defensive, safe driving has anything to do with power. My wife is sometimes a painfully slow driver, but never dangerously slow. Her car, a Civic, doesn't have a whole lot of power to begin with, but she manages to merge into traffic nearly every time without raising the RPM's up much past 3k. How much power do you think that little R18 is making at 3,500 RPM? The simple answer: plenty. It pisses me off when people have plenty of room to merge, but still cut into the 65 mph traffic doing 45, AND THEN speed up. I can tell you honestly that my wife has never had a problem with this.

Also, you biking safety gear is more analogous to how many AIRBAGS and SAFETY FEATURES a car has, and isn't even close to comparable to available power.

With all of that being said, I'm actually considering stepping up/down (however you'd like to look at it) from my STI to something like the XV or, more likely, the Outback in the near future. I've test-driven both, and here, where I live at sea level, there is adequate power for how I would use either vehicle. HOWEVER, by adequate, I mean that it's enough, but any less would be too little for me. I also test drove with my wife and the 220# sales guy, so having this thing loaded up with passengers and cargo might actually prove to be an issue for me.

If the XV was offered with a 2.0L turbo making just over 200 HP with similar torque available at low RPM I'd be all over it. As-is, I'll be patiently waiting on the sidelines for Subaru to bring something worthwhile to the table. I like everything about the XV, even though it's not much more than a lifted Impreza, but combining the fact that I have a great car now with the fact that this thing may not have enough power for my needs (has nothing to do with how safe I would feel in this car, but simple preference) makes it a no-go.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:05 PM   #1227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
Oh, I 100% agree! I did things in my 2001 2.5 RS coupe that Subaru hadn't been able to replicate until the new BRZ! I just meant that people seem to be more reactive drivers, so having more horsepower and AWD at their disposal seems to counter-balance their lack of driving prowess or inability to properly anticipate a potential accident.
I was just saying that I suck as a driver and probably shouldn't have 300hp!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chanomatik View Post
I think the XV just boils down to people that don't want a Forester, but want a raised Impreza if they're enjoying the looks of the new Impreza. I was REALLY surprised that my friends really wanted one once they saw it. No desire for an Impreza Sport or Forester, but for some reason they REALLY want the Crosstrek. They're in their 20's and coming from a Jeep Commanche (I think that's a model).
That was a model, but like the Indians...there all gone! I think between the XV and The Forrester I would probably go with the Forrester just for the space. In an earlier life, the XV with its extra ground clearance would have one.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:58 PM   #1228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinKe View Post
Looking at the XV makes me really want to lift my 2.5i and put some beefy tires on it.

I knew you would come around eventually.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Only a matter of time before we start having guys ask how they can raise their Impreza Sport and where they can buy XV Crosstrek badges from. Only a matter of time.
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:25 AM   #1229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
Nothing after the SVX has carried an H6 with much of any performance inclination on the US market.
I'll agree when the underlined is being used. And remember, I like the SVX, but I'll put the current Legacy 3.6R against that SVX...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
The problem is... barely ANY Subarus are for enthusiasts... fewer every year.
The Crosstrek is for enthusiasts!! Outdoorsy enthusiasts!! Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
When you rode in your tercel, where there as many 300-400hp full size SUVs, weighing anywhere between 2 and 6 tons, being driven by morons on their cellular telephones?
Dude. I was driving a 71hp Justy up till just last year. NO problems. And a 68hp version up to 2 years before that.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:32 AM   #1230
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I can easily argue that the Crosstrek is just as genuine Subaru as the Baja and the Brat. -- Quirky looking vehicles with off-road capability and enough room to carry toys for outdoor use.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:39 AM   #1231
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I ordered my Crosstrek and am looking forward to it. I waffled for a few days because I haven't had an "underpowered" car for quite some time. What it came down to was price, utility and mpg's. I had a Volvo C30 and a Challenger, both cars had fantastic giddyup, rode great and got decent gas mileage (mid 20's) but were sorely lacking in the utility department. They were both acceptable in the snow too and were safe as could be as evidenced by my walking away from devastating accidents in both. I wish people would pay attention to stop signs

I am concerned by the lack of torque in the Crosstrek but am hoping that with the paddle shifters I will be able to take advantage of what it does have and will be able to be as safe on the highway as necessary. I figure that since I drove mostly poorly powered cars for over 20 years, with no accidents, that I can pull it off There have been a few times in our '06 Outback (5 speed) that I wished for better torque for passing or holding speed up a hill but I manage to deal with it and expect that I will with the new car as well. If it is offered with the higher torque turbo diesel I will certainly trade up as soon as possible but I can't see going to a petrol turbo just for more horsepower and taking the hit in the mileage which is a big part of the reason I didn't go with the Forester XT.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:32 AM   #1232
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No doubt this car will be safe and excellent in the snow but IMO it will be underpowered for it's weight. The problem also is if your a aggressive driver or what I call normal these days your foot will always through the floorboard. That is going to give you 20-22 mpg city and not over 30 Hwy. (I know I have a 12 Impreza). If you had more power you can satisfy your needs without wringing the car out. Give it a couple of years and both XV and Impreza will see a power increase with a revise DI 2.0 FB
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:45 PM   #1233
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Originally Posted by pgh88 View Post
No doubt this car will be safe and excellent in the snow but IMO it will be underpowered for it's weight. The problem also is if your a aggressive driver or what I call normal these days your foot will always through the floorboard. That is going to give you 20-22 mpg city and not over 30 Hwy. (I know I have a 12 Impreza). If you had more power you can satisfy your needs without wringing the car out. Give it a couple of years and both XV and Impreza will see a power increase with a revise DI 2.0 FB
This is my stance on the Crosstrek (except the waiting part, I don't wanna! :P). I'm waiting to see how the new Forester, Rav4, and 2.5L cx-5 turn out as a result. 15-20 more HP/torque and I'd have a Crosstrek arriving soon :P I'll take a more powerful engine with lower EPA ratings (How much do you want to bet that going to the 2.5 would only result in 1-2 fewer combined MPG than the 2.0?) that won't have to work as hard over a less powerful one that's constantly being pushed. Especially since I spend most of my time at 4000+ ft above sea level. I know why Subaru has packaged the Crosstrek as they have here in the US, but I'll speak with my wallet

Last edited by staryoshi; 10-13-2012 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:24 PM   #1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 53x12

I knew you would come around eventually.
Haha!

I really wasn't crazy about it when I first saw photos pre-release, but man, it's a great looking vehicle in person. I saw one at the dealer once - think it was already sold because it was gone the next day.

My wife is on the fence about getting a new vehicle, so I'm going to try and convince her to get a crosstrek, lol
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:46 PM   #1235
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My wife just bought an XV (Silver) this weekend. We got the 5spd. She really likes it. It plays pandora from her cell phone, through the radio, with NO WIRES!!!. She's easily pleased. I drove it for a few hours Saturday night delivering pizza. It's great on the backroads, and once you get going, it has ample power. I think this vehicle will be a winner. It get's lots of looks, and folks asking "What is it?".
I also thought the Baja would be a winner too.

It has about 1 less cubic foot inside due to the rear floor being raised to handle the larger by one gallon gas tank, and tow package equip.

My son's first reaction "Dem wheels...Dem wheels"
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:52 PM   #1236
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If you don't watch a lot of TV in Canada, you might not have seen this ad from SCI.

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Old 10-17-2012, 02:50 PM   #1237
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Haha! Nice! Thanks!
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:35 PM   #1238
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Originally Posted by Cocoa Beach Bum View Post
If you don't watch a lot of TV in Canada, you might not have seen this ad from SCI.
Thanks. Entertaining marketing. Does a good job conveying Subaru's "urban & outdoorsy" message for XV Crosstrek.
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Old 10-17-2012, 07:01 PM   #1239
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Guy A: "Pitching a tent."
Guy B: "100%"

LMAO!

Last edited by SoDealer; 10-19-2012 at 03:14 AM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:22 PM   #1240
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The wife got hers last night...

for the 2 or so miles I GOT TO DRIVE IT... I am very happy with it! And she loves it!
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:50 PM   #1241
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That's a cute commercial
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Old 10-19-2012, 07:56 PM   #1242
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I finally got to test drive the Crosstrek today It was as I expected. It looks GREAT in person (especially the rims), the interior has a decent amount of space, the instrumentation, clusters, radio, etc are simple, intuitive, and well laid out (and black gauges look so much better than the white ones in the Impreza), but the one issue I've always had with the Crosstrek is a deal-breaker: The engine. It truly is underpowered. The end result is a lot of engine noise - it made me feel bad to push it up a hill, sluggish starts, and a lack of confidence for quick passing maneuvers. It's the kind of car that I would be satisfied with purchasing, but knowing that the new Forester is almost here I could not do so in good conscience. The good news is that I've narrowed my choices down to the new Forester and the 2.5L CX-5 - It's a race to see who gets here first!

If Subaru put the stalwart 2.5L in there she'd be golden... but as is, I can't commit to the Crosstrek. (I understand why they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean that a boy can't dream )
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:10 PM   #1243
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Originally Posted by staryoshi View Post
I finally got to test drive the Crosstrek today It was as I expected. It looks GREAT in person (especially the rims)
You lost me right there
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:13 PM   #1244
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I'm glad you finally got to test drive it, staryoshi! I actually am a fan of the wheels myself. Thank you for your impressions of the Crosstrek.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:26 PM   #1245
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Subaru is doing very well.

If you don't like what Subaru is doing, then you should work to be a Subaru executive, but if you had good ideas, you would already been an executive. Since you aren't in any top corporate position, I guess your ideas are not working.

Anyways, the XV is a very capable and excellent package, I would definitely consider one, but since I want more space --the Outback will be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
WRX and WRX STI are trim models of the same vehicle, because you aren't counting other trim lines of other models, if your total is NINE. And before 2012, WRX and STI were trim lines of the existing Impreza, and would be counted as an Impreza variant, further reducing the total.

Now WRX and STI are hold-overs from that previous chassis, and the ONLY Subaru AWD performance hold out.

BRZ is not AWD, and cannot be. As far as I am concerned, it is a Toyota built for them by Subaru. A good handling car in it's own right, but disqualified from being compared with Subaru AWD performance cars, without as much traction versatility, or as much power.

Legacy GT was a better performer, it is now gone.

Outback XT was similarly a better performer, ALSO now gone.

Forester XT used to be a better performer, when it had less weight, and a manual gearbox option. The drivetrain has not kept up with expectations, LET ALONE stepped up into the vacuum that Outback XT and Legacy GT have left in their wake.

Forester XT is a losing competitor to other CUVs with V6 power on the options list, not a performance model at all. Brakes, Suspension, Drivetrain, Aesthetics... nothing suggests performance, and a turbo under the hood doesn't make up for the lack, especially not at 230hp like the automatic Impreza GT had.

Counting WRX and WRX STI as a variant of ONE model left on the GR platform, and discounting BRZ from the discussion about Subaru AWD performance...

There is ONE Subaru performance model, out of 8 AWD models, that is serious about AWD performance.

1: Impreza & Sport.
2: XV Crosstrek
3: Forester and XT
4: Legacy 2.5i and 3.6R
5: Outback 2.5i and 3.6R
6: Tribeca
7: WRX and WRX STI. ****
8: Exiga, if we're counting things that aren't available at all in the US.

Even if you count 9:
9: BRZ

Then that is still only 2 performance cars out of 9. That would be 22%.

There should be at least 3-4 AWD performance variants, which would still only be barely approaching HALF. XV, Forester, and Legacy should at least have some sort of performance variant that is more involved than just a low-tune turbo engine.



Most DFI 6-cylinder engines do NOT get 10mpg less than a similarly powered Turbo 4, even a direct-injected turbo.

And it seems like a lot of people still buy vehicles with engines larger than 4-cylinders, and lots of them still order smaller, lighter vehicles, with more amenities. Just because people down-size out of a Suburban doesn't mean they want a stripped down golf-cart for the road.



WHAT? There are plenty of 6-cylinder cars that are sold all over the world, and it is not like I was asking Subaru to STOP building H4s or H4 Turbos.

The engine I describe should be even MORE capable than the Ford TiVCT 3.7 liter to get over 31 mph highway, especially in most Subarus that are less than 3500lbs.

And in a BRZ, it would BEAT the power to weight ratio of a Mustang V6, Genesis V6, or a 370Z if it were tuned for 320hp or more. If FA20 can make 200hp out of 2 liters, there is no reason that an EZ34 as I described it, shouldn't be able to match a Porsche M97 3.2 liter, with 320 hp, and the same variable valve timing and direct fuel injection specifications. There is nothing overly exotic in a Porsche Boxster S engine, that an EZ Subaru engine isn't capable of... and it is the rest of the car's fit and finish, and Porsche's reputation that pushes the price to what it is.



Subaru needs new customers to keep up it's sales numbers. New customers down-sizing out of other brands of V8s. They are not going to down-size all the way down to 148 horsepower in the Impreza and XV Crosstrek.

Hell that, and the FXT's 230hp and auto-only are making it FAR too hard of a decision to step into a new Subaru, compared to my AccessPort tuned Legacy GT, let alone a different brand of vehicle with 300+ horsepower.

Plus... My H6 SVX gets better than 30mpg on the highway, for two reasons... a tall overdrive that allows a torquey H6 to cruise at a nice quiet 2100RPMs at highway speed, and superior aerodynamics. And with that... 75mph, maybe even 80mph if it were allowed, would cut more time than it would increase fuel use for the additional speed. The engine RPMS rise at a lower rate with the tall overdrive, and the aero drag also rises at a lower rate than less aerodynamic cars.

A turbo 4 cannot cruise that far below boost level. My Legacy GT cruises north of 3000RPMs, and buzzes and drones while it does it, to keep the engine near the point where the turbo lag is minimized.

An atmospheric 4-cylinder is working even harder to maintain that speed, plus working harder to move the car in stop and go traffic, too.

People are being SOLD a line that isn't automatically true, that lower power means better mileage. BETTER GEARING CHOICE means better mileage, and torque in reserve means that you can actually respond to situations in traffic.

A power deficit at highway speeds is a SAFETY ISSUE. As in a car that is too weak to perform evasively, including acceleration, is not as safe as it should be, let alone being no fun whatsoever.

But evidently it is a ban-worthy offense to keep saying that I would ultimately prefer an AWD H6 powered Grand Touring Coupe with superior traction to 2WD, superior power and low-end torque to a 4-cylinder, superior smooth refinement to a buzzy little econobox, superior aerodynamics, and superior style to boxier body-styles.

I am trying to move on from that... and move into a realm that Subaru IS participating in, with CUVS... cars classified as light trucks for the sake of the government's misguided central planning.

Subaru is only going to offer Light Truck classified vehicles, aside from a standard economy car (Impreza), and a standard sedan (Legacy) that no mainstream company can do without offering, and a little coupe built at Toyota's behest, and partial cost.

So if all they'll build is taller vehicles... I want a taller vehicle that can still bloody well get out of it's own way! So people can buy their little golf carts for the road... vehicles that you just push pedals and steer.

I still drive, and I expect a car that can be driven.
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:44 PM   #1246
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You lost me right there
I had to warm up to them. They look better in person than they do in pictures/videos, too. At the very least, they aren't generic
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:41 AM   #1247
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Highway speed safety issue? You never drove one.
It passes just fine. Who ever thinks it's an issue, is probably someone who waits till the last second, passes 3 cars, cuts one off, and takes the next exit.

If you want to drive like an a-hole, this car is not powerful enough. If you drive like you care about your life, and others, it's just fine.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:01 AM   #1248
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Originally Posted by rexspeedworthy View Post
Highway speed safety issue? You never drove one.
It passes just fine. Who ever thinks it's an issue, is probably someone who waits till the last second, passes 3 cars, cuts one off, and takes the next exit.

If you want to drive like an a-hole, this car is not powerful enough. If you drive like you care about your life, and others, it's just fine.
Hip is a retard. Just ignore him. What kind of moron says a lack of power is a safety issue. Learn how to drive dude.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:03 AM   #1249
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LOL - Go try n merge onto I-25 in southern WY when there's a line of 18-wheelers doing 80+ mph in an under-powered vehicle - your butthole will be puckered a bit as you see 3 barreling down on you. Some of us don't like having to put our foot all the way on the floor just to get on the highway. And the JEEP's got more power than an XV. I have seen many an Impreza and Civic make a whole group of cars have to do a dance just to work around these vehicles getting on the highway. Stupid **** starts happening when underpowered cars are trying to go up hills on the highway, merge and pass.
Lack of power can absolutely be a safety issue. At altitude, these N/A cars lose 25-30% of their power.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:32 AM   #1250
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I wonder how many pages this thread would be if you took out all of HasToBeStubborn's whining?
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