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Old 10-22-2012, 10:51 AM   #1251
Calamity Jesus
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Originally Posted by gumby1976 View Post
I wonder how many pages this thread would be if you took out all of HasToBeStubborn's whining?
He's posted 23 times. He's the 12th most prolific poster in this thread.

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Old 10-22-2012, 11:19 AM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Brahmzy View Post
LOL - Go try n merge onto I-25 in southern WY when there's a line of 18-wheelers doing 80+ mph in an under-powered vehicle - your butthole will be puckered a bit as you see 3 barreling down on you. Some of us don't like having to put our foot all the way on the floor just to get on the highway. And the JEEP's got more power than an XV. I have seen many an Impreza and Civic make a whole group of cars have to do a dance just to work around these vehicles getting on the highway. Stupid **** starts happening when underpowered cars are trying to go up hills on the highway, merge and pass.
Lack of power can absolutely be a safety issue. At altitude, these N/A cars lose 25-30% of their power.

I have seen Corvettes do the same thing. It isn't the car. It is the driver.

Previous point. Just because you don't want to have to floor it, doesn't mean it is "under powered".


The safety issue is the other idiot drivers driving too fast. The Impreza and Crosstrek have ample power for legal highway speeds.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:37 AM   #1253
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
He's posted 23 times. He's the 12th most prolific poster in this thread.

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Too simple. You'd also have to account for the responses to his diatribes.

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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
The safety issue is the other idiot drivers driving too fast. The Impreza and Crosstrek have ample power for legal highway speeds.
Heck yeah! It's up to the person merging onto the highway to do so safely, regardless of how fast traffic, or of what type, is already on the highway, to not to pull out in front of those that have the Right of Way.

The safety issue here is the driver, not the car or how fast it can or cannot get up to speed. It's the drivers responsibility to get on the highway safely, not the car.

Hot button: I abhor those that just get on a highway without looking expecting everyone will make room for them. Heck, some look, but don't care.

Evidently....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brahmzy
Some of us don't like having to put our foot all the way on the floor just to get on the highway
Is one such driver feeling entitled to be on the highway going as fast as THEY prefer, not accellerating with the flow of traffic, or waiting until safe to do so.


--kC
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:33 PM   #1254
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Some of us don't like having to put our foot all the way on the floor just to get on the highway.
Why the **** not? Why is it so bad to use 100% of 150 HP, rather 50% of 300 HP?
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Old 10-22-2012, 12:37 PM   #1255
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Why the **** not? Why is it so bad to use 100% of 150 HP, rather 50% of 300 HP?
People believe all kinds of stupid things about their cars.. such as that they'll fall apart if you use WOT too much.
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Old 10-22-2012, 01:54 PM   #1256
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This a pretty silly thing to be arguing over the internet. So many unknowns and variables - like other cars merging at the same time, in front of you, taking their time. And you just reinforced my point (thanks) by using 100% of your throttle, you have no more headroom left for a burst of speed if you need it - you're done. You say 150HP... Try about 100HP or less, at altitude, with drivetrain losses and a fully loaded vehicle, as you typically have on a roadtrip.

Sounds like this is falling on deaf ears at sea level. Some drivers are better than others and that's the point. Ample power increases one's defensive and offensive driving capabilities, as do better brakes and better handling. Any other obvious driving facts we wish to discuss? And yeah, I'm not a fan of having floor any vehicle for 2hrs for the 4%-6% grade, 8Kft drive up I-70 to go skiing, just to maintain a safe, constant speed with traffic.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:00 PM   #1257
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This a pretty silly thing to be arguing over the internet. So many unknowns and variables.
You are correct, up to this point, with your post. The rest is crap. I've made many, many car trips with less hp/weight, fully loaded, through mountain ranger, safely. If you can't do it: I recommend that you purchase a car that masks your inability as a defensive driver. The WRX Hatch is a good candidate.
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Old 10-22-2012, 02:13 PM   #1258
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And yeah, I'm not a fan of having floor any vehicle for 2hrs for the 4%-6% grade, 8Kft drive up I-70 to go skiing, just to maintain a safe, constant speed with traffic.
So you go from merging on highways to being WOT for 2 hours. I've been on that road many times. And it's not what you say it is. And if your car can't make it, keep right in the multitude of climbing lanes available.

Or, are you now going to say that you have to stay in the middle/high speed lanes for your safety also??? There won't be any trucks coming up your ass on 70 if you're in a Crosstek. You'll be doing most of the passing. I've done that road in MANY underpowered cars. You're so full of ****, or don't know how to drive, or both.

Let's look at all the underpowered cars causing problems... http://www.cotrip.org/speed.htm?zoomPresetId=2


--kC
P.s. Golden to Idaho Springs, the steepest climb up 70w is only 20ish miles. That's not 2 hours. Plus, it's not a constant grade.

Last edited by KC; 10-22-2012 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:08 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by KC View Post
So you go from merging on highways to being WOT for 2 hours. I've been on that road many times. And it's not what you say it is. And if your car can't make it, keep right in the multitude of climbing lanes available.

Or, are you now going to say that you have to stay in the middle/high speed lanes for your safety also??? There won't be any trucks coming up your ass on 70 if you're in a Crosstek. You'll be doing most of the passing. I've done that road in MANY underpowered cars. You're so full of ****, or don't know how to drive, or both.

Let's look at all the underpowered cars causing problems... http://www.cotrip.org/speed.htm?zoomPresetId=2


--kC
P.s. Golden to Idaho Springs, the steepest climb up 70w is only 20ish miles. That's not 2 hours. Plus, it's not a constant grade.

My sentiments align with Brahmzy. Especially with a loaded down car with people and equipment. Sure it isn't 2 hours of non-stop climbing, but the drive from Denver to Summit County on a snow day with other traffic heading to the mountains can definitely tae +2hrs. Not to mention if you want to go further to Aspen.



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He's posted 23 times. He's the 12th most prolific poster in this thread.

You can click on the post count of the thread (when viewing the forum) to see the rundown of posts/user.
Yiiiiipie, I am finally first in something.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:18 PM   #1260
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My God, how did people survive in the 80's?!!?

Are we confirming that Subaru is so far behind that every other car on the road outperforms the Crosstrek in every way, especially above sea level on the highway going faster than 60MPH uphill?

All I hear are a bunch of theories. Not very much sound reason being tossed around here.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:19 PM   #1261
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Then get a different car with a bigger engine to meet your criteria/wants/needs. Case solved.

It's not a safety issue. It's a driver issue. It does just fine on hills. Slow (along with the multitude of other low displacement cars that go to the mountains), but works and not a safety problem.

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Old 10-22-2012, 04:24 PM   #1262
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I guess all the N/A Subaru's heading up I-70 are safety issues? My 2.5i (loaded up) does fine up to the 11,000 plus ft elevations. Plus, at those elevations, the roads are tight that you can't even go that fast, especially with traffic. In no way am I WOT for the 2+ hours. Some sections I am WOT and pass people in the left lane. If someone wants to go faster, I pull over to the right. It is not a big deal some are making it to be. I'm more concerned about the other drivers that don't pay attention and don't stay to the right if they are slower or the drivers weaving in and out of traffic.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:24 PM   #1263
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KC I own a '12 Sport. I have taken the car loaded with people and gear to Colorado and I can tell you it is not fun. It is a safety issue. Might not be for you, but for Brahmzy, myself and others it is. If you are fine with it, good. But I am going off of experience with my own car. I doubt the XV will be any different as it is the same car more or less except for some added weight, higher car and a few other parts.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:25 PM   #1264
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
A power deficit at highway speeds is a SAFETY ISSUE. As in a car that is too weak to perform evasively, including acceleration, is not as safe as it should be, let alone being no fun whatsoever.
I completely disagree with that statement. I can't think of any incident or close calls in my life where having more power would have gotten me out of it. On the contrary, good brakes and handling were the only ways i avoided accidents.

Also, i tow an RV with my truck, it's pitifully slow to merge and accelerate. So you're saying no one should RV since it's a safety issue?

Also my friend's dad has a construction business, he drives a dump truck which is rediculously slow, and merges onto highways all the time. You saying they need to make dump trucks with 1000hp and 3000ft/lbs of torque to keep up with all the latest suburban's and explorers with V6/V8 engines?

I really disagree with your Saftey Issue statement. It doesn't compute in the real world when you truly stop to think about it and from driving experience with slow accelerating vehicles. Sure gobs of HP under my foot is nice to have, but it's not a necessity. You only need adequate acceleration to get up to highway speed in a reasonable distance to be safe.

FWIW i also ride a gsxr 600, so i know what acceleration feels like and again handling is the only way to avoid an accident because you can't brake a bike like you can a car. Power will have little to do with it other than what's normally needed to turn.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:45 PM   #1265
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Ironic how one of the safest car manufacturers ever is under fire for building a car that is theoretically too slow for driving and is now UNSAFE.

We get some pretty high elevations in Alaska, though Anchorage is at sea level. I can't imagine an instance where a loaded Crosstrek would feel UNSAFE merging into traffic and going. The ONLY thing I think that could make this a problem is if you are more of a REACTIVE driver and have poor anticipation skills (or general powers of perception). Not every moment on the road is riddled with ZOMG ACCIDENT PREVENTION TECHNIQUE ENGAGED!!!

Just chill, ya'll. Don't buy the car if it's lacking that much. For me, power would be an APPEAL, but not a necessity. If the car fits your lifestyle then fine, but let's stop acting like every other car on the road is 200+HP, AWD and jet-fueled.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:12 PM   #1266
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Geez, My '74 Honda Coupe with a total of 36hp must have been a real road hazard. Didn't have any problems with it except for being cognizant of it's ability and not thinking it was a Vette or Muscle car.

A few years ago, you would think that a 140hp engine was a real screamer and now it is woozy. I think the bigger issue is the torque associated with the engine that makes the perceived difference - just my humble opinion.

Edit: My 1994 T-Bird with a 3.8 V6 Engine only had 140Hp.

Last edited by G-Omaha; 10-22-2012 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 10:25 PM   #1267
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I've been reading the 2012 impreza thread since it's very first post way back in february 2011. Likewise, I've been following this page since it's genesis. The new impreza was something I had been waiting for-a fuel efficient awd vehicle, when word of the XV came about, the additional ground clearance ticked another box. The only concern I have is the power. Nearly every review I've read/watched points out like most everyone in this and the impreza thread that the engine is sluggish. No, I do appreciate that it has a 1500lb towing capacity, and I really don't even think i would get much use out of that. By no means am I looking for a hot rod, but I would certainly like some pep. I also like that the engine is a 2.0. However, after seeing this video
of the Paris debut of the 2012 XV XT, I have come to yet another crossroads... Since the Forester XT made it to the U.S., I'm assuming the XV XT will too. I assume it will be peppy, but who knows whether that will be via the 2.5 from the forester or some variant of the D.I. 2.0 that the wrx is expected to have. Those who have bought either the 2012 impreza or the XV, what pushed you to commit. I fear that as soon as I do, all of the things that would make the vehicle perfect will be on the next model.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:04 PM   #1268
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Quick question: our dealership has an XV that is technically for sale, but is being used as a demo vehicle for test drives. If someone wants it, they have to wait a certain period of time, after which the price will be adjusted based on how many miles have been racked up. Does anyone else have a dealership that is doing this?

Like many of you, I too like this vehicle and am considering buying one, but my biggest concern is also power. Right now I'm driving an '03 WRX wagon with a Cobb AP stage 2 tune. So I'm used to having power. That being said, during my college years, I drove a '97 Cavalier LS with a whopping 120hp. Fortunately it had a 4-speed OD transmission so it felt adequate. Was it as fast and powerful as the WRX? No, of course not. Did I ever wish I had more power? Certainly! Was my life ever threatened by not having more power? No, it wasn't. I hear what a lot of you are saying. Yes, it does suck when you load a vehicle to the max and it is relatively low on power to begin with. Yes, when you pull out to pass a slower vehicle, it's nice to be able to get around that vehicle swiftly without flooring it all the time.
Here's my reasoning: Determine what sort of driving you realistically do 85-90% of the time. If I went to an XV, would I miss the extra power from the WRX? Yes! But can I live without it and still be fairly content? I think so. I would love the XV if it had an extra 20 or 30hp. But with 148hp, I think it'll be fine under most driving conditions.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:23 PM   #1269
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I'm excited by the release of this car because I want to see if the flares will fit on my 09
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:44 PM   #1270
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As someone who drives a 2003 Mustang V6 (Which isn't a powerhouse, but it's no slouch at 193HP and 225ft-lb torque) as well as a 1989 Chevy Celebrity (back in the old 3-speed auto days - 98hp 4-cylinder), I found the Crosstrek to be wanting for power. The CVT makes itself known (I should have written that in bold/caps) when you have to get on it, and you have to get on it regularly. Coasting and gentle city driving is no issue, but if you have to take on hills, high altitude, or hwy merging, brace yourself for a loud, slow experience. I also noticed that it was kind of slow to get moving, too. Like there was a tiny delay before it would respond from a stop... but that could just be me.

I love its styling and functionality inside and out, but until that engine receives a little muscle, I can't recommend the Crosstrek. I'd hold out for the new Forester, personally. (As I doubt the Crosstrek will receive a power boost anytime soon...) ~160-175 hp and equivalent torque would have made this the car to beat... but such is not the case unfortunately.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:11 AM   #1271
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Originally Posted by rainsc View Post
I've been reading the 2012 impreza thread since it's very first post way back in february 2011. Likewise, I've been following this page since it's genesis. The new impreza was something I had been waiting for-a fuel efficient awd vehicle, when word of the XV came about, the additional ground clearance ticked another box. The only concern I have is the power. Nearly every review I've read/watched points out like most everyone in this and the impreza thread that the engine is sluggish. No, I do appreciate that it has a 1500lb towing capacity, and I really don't even think i would get much use out of that. By no means am I looking for a hot rod, but I would certainly like some pep. I also like that the engine is a 2.0. However, after seeing this video 2013 Subaru XV XT-Line - Exterior and Interior Walkaround - 2012 Paris Auto Show - YouTube of the Paris debut of the 2012 XV XT, I have come to yet another crossroads... Since the Forester XT made it to the U.S., I'm assuming the XV XT will too. I assume it will be peppy, but who knows whether that will be via the 2.5 from the forester or some variant of the D.I. 2.0 that the wrx is expected to have. Those who have bought either the 2012 impreza or the XV, what pushed you to commit. I fear that as soon as I do, all of the things that would make the vehicle perfect will be on the next model.
No, no... there's a major underlying misunderstanding. The "XT Line" Crosstrek and BRZ that debuted in Paris were not turbo, and not related to an Outback XT or Forester XT. It was cosmetic, and was pieced together locally for the show. It's not an FHI concept. Sorry. Maybe there will be something in the future.

Here's the XT Line thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2413470
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:20 AM   #1272
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Originally Posted by staryoshi View Post
As someone who drives a 2003 Mustang V6 (Which isn't a powerhouse, but it's no slouch at 193HP and 225ft-lb torque) as well as a 1989 Chevy Celebrity (back in the old 3-speed auto days - 98hp 4-cylinder), I found the Crosstrek to be wanting for power. The CVT makes itself known (I should have written that in bold/caps) when you have to get on it, and you have to get on it regularly. Coasting and gentle city driving is no issue, but if you have to take on hills, high altitude, or hwy merging, brace yourself for a loud, slow experience. I also noticed that it was kind of slow to get moving, too. Like there was a tiny delay before it would respond from a stop... but that could just be me.

I love its styling and functionality inside and out, but until that engine receives a little muscle, I can't recommend the Crosstrek. I'd hold out for the new Forester, personally. (As I doubt the Crosstrek will receive a power boost anytime soon...) ~160-175 hp and equivalent torque would have made this the car to beat... but such is not the case unfortunately.
I agree whole heartly based on our current Impreza. I am waiting to test drive a XV but feel I have a good understanding of what to expect. You make some great points.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:46 AM   #1273
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I agree whole heartly based on our current Impreza. I am waiting to test drive a XV but feel I have a good understanding of what to expect. You make some great points.
I liked the new Impreza quite a bit and nearly bought one myself . A few things off the top of my head I think you'll probably notice with the Crosstrek (vs the Impreza) if you're anything like me:

-Black gauge cluster - It looks MUCH better than the white in the Impreza
-The ride height difference is very noticeable, and I enjoyed it - You get a more commanding view of the road
-The car looks better in person than in videos/pictures - I especially love the new rims, when I didn't at first blush, and the rugged cladding looks great (except the spot in the front that they skipped for some reason).

The towing capacity and larger brakes are appreciated, too. Subaru nailed 90% of what they should have to make this car a true gem... but that 10% was a deal breaker for me :P Oh, and the stock 6-speaker sound system sounds fine at low volume levels and has surprisingly decent lows, but when you turn 'em up a bit they're as gutless as any other non-upgraded system. If I were to get one, those speakers would be replaced posthaste (but 95% of consumers won't mind)

Last edited by staryoshi; 10-23-2012 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:48 AM   #1274
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Mine is ordered and I'm still a bit concerned about the distinct lack of torque. I waffled for a few days because I was worried that I'd be disappointed with my purchase due to how anemic the car felt on the first test drive. I need the size and utility this car offers and the reasonable mpg's don't hurt the decision either. Other than how sluggish I perceived it to be I need what else it has to offer so I figure they will release a more powerful version in a year or so and I will just upgrade to it at that point. I know I'll take a depreciation hit but 258 lb/ft of torque with the turbo diesel would be just about right.

I also figure that I drove mostly underpowered cars for over 20 years (except for my track cars) and it really wasn't much of an issue. It may have been a little frustrating at times doing 25mph with my foot to the floor for 15-20 miles in my 74 Ford Camper Van but it gave me time to enjoy the scenery and have a beer.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:51 AM   #1275
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KC I own a '12 Sport. I have taken the car loaded with people and gear to Colorado and I can tell you it is not fun. It is a safety issue.
Not fun != safety issue.

Slower than what you're used to? Most likely. However, for eons people have driven those roads with cars with worse gearing and less hp, loaded down, and have not spontaneously gotten into an accident due to their being underpowered.

Remember, 15 years ago (c.1995), ~150 hp was the norm for your typical family sedan. Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Subaru Legacy, Audi A4, BMW 325 etc... all had 150-180hp engines in their 'big' cars.

With the escalation in todays HP to offset the weight, people accept those things as 'normal' today when it's really still more than people 'need'.

150hp is MORE SAFE TODAY than anything in 1995 for this economical non-sports car people mover. It's not a sports car. It doesn't even pretend to be one. It's a pedestrain point A to point B mover than can handle the occasional easy off-road excursion.

You have different expectations because you're used to having more power. And that's the mindset that needs to change here in the states. Low power does NOT MEAN UNSAFE. Yet, Detroit and the press have drilled that point home time and time again that more power = more better. (And more expensive, and less fuel economy due to more weight). It doesn't help things that the weight of the cars have gone up to offset the gov't mandated increase in safety, I'll give you that.

But 150hp car being a safety issue it is not. You had better tell Kia, Hyundai, Ford, Mazda, etc... that they too make unsafe cars, cars that are too slow to drive, because people will be running into them???? Is that the 'safety issue' you speak of? People running into slow cars? That's the ONLY ONE I can think of.

All that said, I can and do relate to your WANT for more power. Heck, I have one of the more powerful cars in the $20k-$29k range on the road today. It corrupt, absolutely. I've also had cars (7 of the 14 Subarus I've owned) with under 100hp. I never got into an accident because of their low power, or more specifically, no one ever hit me because the car I was driving was too slow. I can't even recall a time where there were accidents due to slow drivers. Most of the time, it's driving too fast for conditions, or inattentive drivers.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 10-23-2012 at 09:00 AM.
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