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Old 09-14-2011, 11:07 PM   #1
Habby
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Default how much hp can topmount and meth support up to?

Im thinking if i just run methh on my top mount i may be able to get the same affect as a fmic and run the same amount of horsepower? tell me if im correct. should i got top mount with meth or fmic straight up.. to give you some background info my goal is to run 400 Whp. do you think it could support it.. this is just off the top of my head but i think it would be about 460-480 crank horspower.. corect me if i am wrong please

P.S. Thanks for the input
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:16 AM   #2
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You need to answer a few questions B4 we can answer your question

-What turbo are you running or going to run for this goal
-What TMIC are you using or are you looking for recommendations for a lager TMIC

IMO I dont think 400 is efficiently attainable with a TMIC even with meth. You will need to push too much air through it with a large turbo......400whp is above 20g - FP Green - stock location turbos. If you go rotated you go FMIC.

Have you done any research on this yet.....seeing what others have done to attain 400whp
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:53 AM   #3
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I have definatley but im so confused between fmic and tmic and im thinking fp green actually haha
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Old 09-15-2011, 09:27 AM   #4
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Well I am running a older non HTA FP Green and Im hard pressed for numbers near 400whp at 20psi. I have custom just about everything on a stock STi bottom end and heads.
IMO a TMIC is not going to flow enough air for a green even if you get a high end massive one like APS or a custom Spearco core. Also it will be far cheaper to get a FMIC that will work then a TMIC that might barley be big enough. Also you location is highly advantageous to a FMIC ......up in the Big North is cold, that will keep your FMIC core cold a TMIC will only stay cold if your moving, other wise is heat soaking. The bigger the TMIC the more and easier is heat soaks.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:46 AM   #5
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Well, the old FP Green doesn't really flow enough to hit 400hp. Now this isn't to say that you can't get a 400hp reading on a dyno, but if you do, the dyno is likely a little exaggerated. Simply put, the flow amount of that turbo should put you just under 400hp which is exactly where you're at. Be content with that. Or you can throw ice on the intercooler, get your magic 400hp number, and go weeeee!, but you still run an old Green that has 47 lb/min air flow which puts you right at the high 300s for these cars on an average dyno. If that's what you're getting, good. If you wanted to break 400whp, then you wanted the newer Green, Element GT52, GT3076, anything that will flow that little bit more to break the 400whp mark on an average dyno.

As for the TMIC, it completely depends upon the incooler. Stock, well...haha. A lot of aftermarket ones operate quite good and support plenty of power. It's certainly true that a front mount can achieve cooler temps because it has a distinct air flow and ambient temp advantage.

As for flow, TMICs work absolutely fine for flow. There are plenty of options out there that have very minimal pressure loss, less than any cheap front mount and a pile of piping will get you. There is data floating around showing pressure loss numbers of some of the major brands and models.

Now you may not be looking at the right place either. For example, what other hardware do you have on the car like...exhaust. Are you running gutted stock, 2.5" custom high flow stuff, 3" custom, some cheapy aftermarket eBay stuff, what? Turbos are quite sensitive to backpressure in terms of efficiency. This often starts at the exhaust, but it can include everything through the engine too like cams. You look at the TMIC because it's a simple swap item. There are also a variety of options that may improve efficiency and reduce pressure loss. However, you still have to look at the whole car. This turbo is working against EVERYTHING, so you need to look at everything and figure out which parts are actually the bottlenecks and fix those. You're asking for about double the cfm of a stock motor yet most of the hardware is likely stock and subsequently geared for stock flow. Turbo cars may compression and blindly shove air through the motor, but they still are sensitive to flow limitations. My only suggestion is to look at the car as a whole.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 09-15-2011 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:22 PM   #6
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Well in this link it states meth pluss tmic is more efficient cooling then fmic. but really not like your supposed to beleive everything on the internet
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:22 PM   #7
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:42 AM   #8
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Yeah, I already ran across that, just didn't bother linking to it as I prefer to offer something with more data/testing.

The problem with the turbo is it's only designed to flow so much air. Without changing the air/fuel ratio and putting in more energy into the combustion chamber, you can't create more power with limited air. Meth injection does help with this to some degree as long as you're taking advantage of this.

Meth allows you to run higher compression, more timing, and more boost because we're reducing knock. However, if you're not doing this or can't due to a specific shortcoming, like limited air flow from the size of the turbo, you can only work with what you have left available. In your case, all you can really do is ask for as much boost as you can from the turbo, shove in as much timing as will generate power, and put in as much fuel as will actually get used and just sort of see what you get. At some point you will simply max out for the limitations of the package. There will be a point where more timing is ineffective. There will be a point where more fuel doesn't get used up. There will be a point where the turbo will simply not move more air. Now you may find yourself saying, "well I'm not knocking yet." If so, this only means you could run more boost using a bigger turbo or you could run higher compression pistons for more torque and subsequently hp, but both of these are things you can't change without purchase. All you can really do is ask for boost and hope the turbo gives enough, add as much timing as will produce power, and add as much fuel as will produce power. The end result is the end result. Is it +400whp? Maybe. Maybe not. However that 400 number will be arbitrary anyways because you're on some particular dyno reading high, conservative, or wherever in the spectrum. You could have just as likely went to another shop, hit the 400whp mark, and never made this post in the first place. Instead, you didn't quite make it to the arbitrary magic number, so you want to do more. As for this "more" there are tons of things you can do. I would just start by upping the turbo and revving out a little more because it's the easiest solution.

For some reason I read your thread thinking you were already using meth and not hitting 400whp. If you are not and are just shy, then yes, meth will generate more hp and probably get you there. Just understand that chasing numbers is arbitrary, and it's more useful to just build a hardware package that suits your needs. Measured numbers are just numbers. The better goal is to simply build an engine package that operates well as a system. This isn't just meth but everything. You can change the exhaust and get different results. You can change the intake and get different results. You can toss in cams and get different results. In the end, you should be looking at the package as a whole and thinking about the system rather than just one thing.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:33 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Yeah, I already ran across that, just didn't bother linking to it as I prefer to offer something with more data/testing.

The problem with the turbo is it's only designed to flow so much air. Without changing the air/fuel ratio and putting in more energy into the combustion chamber, you can't create more power with limited air. Meth injection does help with this to some degree as long as you're taking advantage of this.

Meth allows you to run higher compression, more timing, and more boost because we're reducing knock. However, if you're not doing this or can't due to a specific shortcoming, like limited air flow from the size of the turbo, you can only work with what you have left available. In your case, all you can really do is ask for as much boost as you can from the turbo, shove in as much timing as will generate power, and put in as much fuel as will actually get used and just sort of see what you get. At some point you will simply max out for the limitations of the package. There will be a point where more timing is ineffective. There will be a point where more fuel doesn't get used up. There will be a point where the turbo will simply not move more air. Now you may find yourself saying, "well I'm not knocking yet." If so, this only means you could run more boost using a bigger turbo or you could run higher compression pistons for more torque and subsequently hp, but both of these are things you can't change without purchase. All you can really do is ask for boost and hope the turbo gives enough, add as much timing as will produce power, and add as much fuel as will produce power. The end result is the end result. Is it +400whp? Maybe. Maybe not. However that 400 number will be arbitrary anyways because you're on some particular dyno reading high, conservative, or wherever in the spectrum. You could have just as likely went to another shop, hit the 400whp mark, and never made this post in the first place. Instead, you didn't quite make it to the arbitrary magic number, so you want to do more. As for this "more" there are tons of things you can do. I would just start by upping the turbo and revving out a little more because it's the easiest solution.

For some reason I read your thread thinking you were already using meth and not hitting 400whp. If you are not and are just shy, then yes, meth will generate more hp and probably get you there. Just understand that chasing numbers is arbitrary, and it's more useful to just build a hardware package that suits your needs. Measured numbers are just numbers. The better goal is to simply build an engine package that operates well as a system. This isn't just meth but everything. You can change the exhaust and get different results. You can change the intake and get different results. You can toss in cams and get different results. In the end, you should be looking at the package as a whole and thinking about the system rather than just one thing.
Ya i kinda worded the thread bad. but thats the thing i love hitting boost early, very early and my top mount lets me do that. maybe im just looking at the wrong turbo maybe i should look at something a little less but could still get me up there
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:32 PM   #10
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i've made 400+ on spearcos a few times no meth. I've been tuning lots of GMs lately with MEth and I can safely say a good 50/50 spray will drop intake temps by 40-60 degrees. Thats huge and other then air to water its one of the best cooling agents you can have.
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:15 PM   #11
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... Sorry double post
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Old 10-15-2011, 02:18 PM   #12
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Could a condition ever occur when using methanol that cools an engine component too much and so rapidly that would cause it to crack?
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Old 10-18-2011, 04:57 AM   #13
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400 crank can be done on good TMIC (I am running 420 on my JDM V9 STI TMIC)
400 wheel would need a FMIC imho
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Old 10-18-2011, 08:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habby View Post
I have definatley but im so confused between fmic and tmic and im thinking fp green actually haha


Why does one feel the need to end his or her sentence with a "haha" nowadays?

What is so funny about an FP green turbocharger? I mean when I think of FP green turbochargers, "haha" doesn't come to mind. Please explain yourself.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:06 PM   #15
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We run 400whp on our TMIC with no signs of heat soak at all. If your running meth on top of it, your going to have cooling for around 500whp, but would I recommend a FMIC at that power range? Yes.

If your running a stock frame turbo to that capacity chances are it's way out of it's efficiency range. When the turbo is out of it's efficiency range it blows out a ton of excess heat and the larger intercooler with more surface area will help dissipate heat a lot better and keep the AIT's much lower.

Michael
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:21 PM   #16
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sorry to dig up old news...but what TMIC do u duys use when ur reaching 400whp??
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Old 02-22-2013, 06:45 AM   #17
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i have APS TMIC + GT3071, but am getting too much detonations when boost upraises to 20 PSI , so i will install Aquamist Meth kit . also our fuel is so bad i think its octane 90.

so in total , meth kit + tmic will get me to 23-25 psi of boost and 30-40 whp i hope to reach 375 whp
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dori Ninja View Post
sorry to dig up old news...but what TMIC do u duys use when ur reaching 400whp??

Same question as to the OP...what turbo?

I have a rotated GT3076 with Spearco TMIC and make 391whp on 93oct and 424whp on 100oct.

Junior has a HTA GT35 with the same TMIC and makes 550whp on pump 93!
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Old 02-22-2013, 12:29 PM   #19
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I plan on cracking 500 on e85 when it gets retuned...talk about an instant powerband for the street. heres my ppb thread. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1966130
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