Subaru to ditch the Toyota hybrid system, and go with their own

[rsholland]

I'm surprised no one has posted this before, as it's been in the news for several days now. If it has been posted, I haven't found it.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/29...t-toyota-tech/

2013 gas-electric Subaru to feature mild hybrid setup, not Toyota's tech
By Eric LovedayRSS feed
Posted Sep 29th 2011 1:00PM

There's no questioning that Toyota dominates the hybrid vehicle segment. So of course Subaru wants to ditch Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive technology in favor of its in-house-developed mild hybrid system for the automaker's first-ever hybrid vehicle.

According to Just Auto and contrary to expectations, that's the route Subaru will reportedly follow with its scheduled-to-launch-in-2013 hybrid vehicle. The model has not been named, but the new hybrid will most likely be the Legacy and will launch in Japan. Some reports continue to speculate that either the Impreza or Legacy will be first in line to get the gas-electric tech here in the States in 2014.

Back in 2009, Subaru displayed the Hybrid Tourer, a project it worked on with Toyota, at the Tokyo Motor Show. That concept, which never made it to production, used a direct injected version of Subaru's 2.0-liter turbo boxer engine. Maybe Subaru's classic "hybrids are not worth the money" video was more descriptive of the company's mindset than anyone knew.

Bob

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[Kostamojen]

LOL, so basically they are going to use the one they developed a few years ago for that concept?

[tom@kartboy]

just bring the F'N diesel here and be done with it.

[rsholland]

I would think a full-boogie hybrid is the way to go. Here's a link describing mild hybrids:

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/04/30...a-mild-hybrid/

Sounds like costs drove this decision.

Bob

[Kostamojen]

Honestly, if someone wised up and paired this with the Diesel motor, it would be pretty darn good.

[grzydj]

Originally Posted by tom@kartboy

just bring the F'N diesel here and be done with it.

I've been emailing Subaru about this subject so much that it is probably bordering on harassment.

[rsholland]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Honestly, if someone wised up and paired this with the Diesel motor, it would be pretty darn good.

I agree. I'm concerned if it's a mild (gas) hybrid, the car may get around 40 mpg. Heck, there are non-hybrids getting that kind of mileage now.

Bob

[JazzyJake]

Originally Posted by tom@kartboy

just bring the F'N diesel here and be done with it.

Yes please!! I'd love a turbodiesel forester as a daily!

[HB_Dad]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Honestly, if someone wised up and paired this with the Diesel motor, it would be pretty darn good.

Agreed, especially since Impreza is getting 36MPG WITHOUT hybrid, the yield from the hybrid needs to get around 50MPGs at least to be worthwhile...

[ejicon]

I betting this joint venture coupe project between Toyota & Subaru isn't going COMPLETELY well by the looks of this. You would think Subaru and Toyota would start selling both cars at their dealerships but I guess not.

[GuyLR]

Originally Posted by HB_Dad

Agreed, especially since Impreza is getting 36MPG WITHOUT hybrid, the yield from the hybrid needs to get around 50MPGs at least to be worthwhile...

The trouble with 36 mpg in a gas only Impreza is that nobody will actually get that much. Realistically, they'll probably be lucky to break 30 in a typical mixed urban driving loop. That's where a hybrid could really make a difference even if it only gets 41 city and 38 highway (10 less than a Prius) With that kind of mileage you're looking at over a 33% increase in fuel economy. It might even improve performance if they keep the hybrid tuned FB20 at 135-140 hp.

Guy

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by GuyLR

The trouble with 36 mpg in a gas only Impreza is that nobody will actually get that much. Realistically, they'll probably be lucky to break 30 in a typical mixed urban driving loop. That's where a hybrid could really make a difference even if it only gets 41 city and 38 highway (10 less than a Prius) With that kind of mileage you're looking at over a 33% increase in fuel economy. It might even improve performance if they keep the hybrid tuned FB20 at 135-140 hp.

Guy

My wife(and I when I occasionally get to drive it) get 24 combined MPGs on our 09 WRX. I think people are going to be seeing 32 to 33 combined on the new Impreza.

This new Impreza is getting 36. We know this. Without DI and without any hybrid system. Put both of those on and my guess would be 45ish. Not great I agree; but, to me, it would depend on how much more they would charge.

[randomelement2]

I'm trying to figure out why Toyota bought a percentage of Subaru. When you think of car companies working together, there's lots of parts sharing to reduce costs. What major things are these 2 sharing? Engines, nope. Platforms, uh-uh. And apparently not a hybrid system either. I didn't forget the upcoming sports coupes, but I'm sure that Toyota's interest in Subaru isn't based on a low volume model. Can anyone enlighten me?

[keepclam]

Originally Posted by ejicon

I betting this joint venture coupe project between Toyota & Subaru isn't going COMPLETELY well by the looks of this. You would think Subaru and Toyota would start selling both cars at their dealerships but I guess not.

What does the difficult-to-match-up hybrid systems have to do with the RWD coupe? And Subaru and Toyota ARE both selling the coupe at their respective dealerships.

This partnership already seems to be more productive than with GM, but I'm glad to see Subaru remain independent-minded. They're making money producing Camrys, have studied Toyota's methods to gain efficiencies that have helped keep Subaru's costs down, have outsourced their unprofitable kei-car production (a mixed bag) to Toyota allowing focus of precious resources elsewhere, and maybe they're able to take advantage of some economy-of-scale parts purchases (though I don't know).

[keepclam]

Originally Posted by randomelement2

I'm trying to figure out why Toyota bought a percentage of Subaru. When you think of car companies working together, there's lots of parts sharing to reduce costs. What major things are these 2 sharing? Engines, nope. Platforms, uh-uh. And apparently not a hybrid system either. I didn't forget the upcoming sports coupes, but I'm sure that Toyota's interest in Subaru isn't based on a low volume model. Can anyone enlighten me?

Well, the typical reason to invest in a company is to make money. Just by being a profitable company, Subaru is making money for shareholder Toyota. FHI's engineers and production capacity were probably also appealing, and I recall Toyota studied Subaru's assembly process to become more efficient (surprisingly backwards from what you'd expect). This partnership is still pretty new to show a whole lot of fruits on the consumer side of things.

[Furiousd1983]

Originally Posted by Kostamojen

Honestly, if someone wised up and paired this with the Diesel motor, it would be pretty darn good.

I know this is pipe dreaming but the ultimate would be an Audi Group TDI mated to Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. Although they would have to keep the HPFP from self destructing!

[b4wantab]

Originally Posted by randomelement2

I'm trying to figure out why Toyota bought a percentage of Subaru. When you think of car companies working together, there's lots of parts sharing to reduce costs. What major things are these 2 sharing? Engines, nope. Platforms, uh-uh. And apparently not a hybrid system either. I didn't forget the upcoming sports coupes, but I'm sure that Toyota's interest in Subaru isn't based on a low volume model. Can anyone enlighten me?

Toyota needed Camry production capacity. SOA got access to Toyota's bulk pricing on parts; switches, sensors, etc. It is a win-win for both.

What is the problem with SOA and Diesel? SOA Blog any insight?

Peace,

Greg

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by keepclam

Well, the typical reason to invest in a company is to make money. Just by being a profitable company, Subaru is making money for shareholder Toyota. FHI's engineers and production capacity were probably also appealing, and I recall Toyota studied Subaru's assembly process to become more efficient (surprisingly backwards from what you'd expect). This partnership is still pretty new to show a whole lot of fruits on the consumer side of things.

This is what was told to me at the plant when I took the tour.

[keepclam]

SOA Blog has said their research indicates market conditions don't warrant bringing the diesel, but they'll continue monitoring the demand.

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by keepclam

SOA Blog has said their research indicates market conditions don't warrant bringing the diesel, but they'll continue monitoring the demand.

As long as what is brought to the states is a better version. A bit more power and fuel economy. The extra cost of the diesel over a non-diesel would be a deterrent. Plus an automatic of course.

[gotsol]

Originally Posted by keepclam

SOA Blog has said their research indicates market conditions don't warrant bringing the diesel, but they'll continue monitoring the demand.

yeah that's the market condition

Soaring Sales of Diesel Cars Support Higher Platinum Prices

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2730...latinum-prices


Truth: SOA can't/won't put the R&D into getting it certified for USA emissions.

[b4wantab]

Originally Posted by keepclam

SOA Blog has said their research indicates market conditions don't warrant bringing the diesel, but they'll continue monitoring the demand.

I understand that is their position, as they have stated a few times. SOA just needs to be careful and not make it a self-fulfilling prophecy. GM had great focus-group feedback as they went down the tubes.

I would love to see Subaru set the curve. Make a long term investment, you can react with vision.

Peace,

Greg

[grzydj]

Originally Posted by keepclam

SOA Blog has said their research indicates market conditions don't warrant bringing the diesel, but they'll continue monitoring the demand.

Hahahahahaha. And they somehow determined that a company that builds cars that people buy instead of an SUV, thought that building an SUV (Tribeca) somehow warranted production.

Originally Posted by gotsol

yeah that's the market condition

Soaring Sales of Diesel Cars Support Higher Platinum Prices

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2730...latinum-prices


Truth: SOA can't/won't put the R&D into getting it certified for USA emissions.

Subaru is at a disadvantage here, unless Toyota and Subaru together can somehow absorb some of the costs for diesel engines to meet US emissions standards. On their own though, Subaru would probably lose money on trying to make diesels meet US emissions if they were to only sell 20k of them a year.

Honestly, I know they would sell them as fast as they could make them, but it must be huge amount of money for them to not consider what would be an awesome engine.

I want my 50 mpg and great drive-ability with oodles of low end torque.

[JustyWRC]

Originally Posted by grzydj

Hahahahahaha. And they somehow determined that a company that builds cars that people buy instead of an SUV, thought that building an SUV (Tribeca) somehow warranted production.



Subaru is at a disadvantage here, unless Toyota and Subaru together can somehow absorb some of the costs for diesel engines to meet US emissions standards. On their own though, Subaru would probably lose money on trying to make diesels meet US emissions if they were to only sell 20k of them a year.

Honestly, I know they would sell them as fast as they could make them, but it must be huge amount of money for them to not consider what would be an awesome engine.

I want my 50 mpg and great drive-ability with oodles of low end torque.

The Tribeca was conceived and developed before the bad gas prices. Would have done better if that wasn't the case. Would it have done as well as they originally planned? Dunno. I think it would have done well enough to warrant a normal timeline redesign.

Subaru would probably price the diesel as bad as they do overseas. Isn't it like $3K more than a non-diesel?

[cefoskey]

Originally Posted by keepclam

SOA Blog has said their research indicates market conditions don't warrant bringing the diesel, but they'll continue monitoring the demand.

Then why is it that VW sells their entire TDI lineup at MSRP, and in some cases above sticker?

How is it that every subaru dealer I go to and ask about a diesel forester tells me I'm the eleventy billionth person to ask for one?

This is a terrible argument, I really wonder where they get this data that "people dont want a diesel here". Of any demographic, subaru drivers are the MOST likely to understand the advantages.