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Old 10-06-2011, 09:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cefoskey View Post
Then why is it that VW sells their entire TDI lineup at MSRP, and in some cases above sticker?

How is it that every subaru dealer I go to and ask about a diesel forester tells me I'm the eleventy billionth person to ask for one?

This is a terrible argument, I really wonder where they get this data that "people dont want a diesel here". Of any demographic, subaru drivers are the MOST likely to understand the advantages.
Who else besides VW is doing well with diesels? What do you estimate Subaru's cost to market would be for bringing a US diesel?
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:21 PM   #27
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Honestly, if someone wised up and paired this with the Diesel motor, it would be pretty darn good.
Nah. That would just make too much damn'd sense.
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Old 10-06-2011, 10:53 PM   #28
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Nah. That would just make too much damn'd sense.
I swear, all the companies are saving the Diesel Hybrids for when the EPA mileage requirements skyrocket
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Old 10-07-2011, 12:38 AM   #29
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Who else besides VW is doing well with diesels? What do you estimate Subaru's cost to market would be for bringing a US diesel?
Who else is even offering an affordable diesel passenger car in the US? Name a single one outside of VAG. If they are trying to gauge interest based upon BMW/Mercedes sales, then they are sorely mistaken.

Nobody suggested it would be free to bring diesel here. I contend there is a market, and that there would be a clear ROI for doing so. It has paid off for VW and hey have a monopoly on this market for that exact reason.
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:46 AM   #30
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I contend that diesel has many more "green" options than gas. It will only get more popular the more people pay attention. Going forward there will most likely be a need to have an offering to meet CAFE anyway.

Look at the marketing value the name Outback was and Prius has become. SOA would serve themselves and their customers well to be the diesel choice for consumers. Become the next OB/Prius with a high efficiency diesel offering.

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Old 10-07-2011, 08:53 AM   #31
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Truth: SOA can't/won't put the R&D into getting it certified for USA emissions.
Actually the truth is the Subaru diesel is already certified for U.S. emissions...

Subaru of America has said they won't bring the diesel until an automatic transmission is available because a manual transmission version won't sell.
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Old 10-07-2011, 11:03 AM   #32
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Who else is even offering an affordable diesel passenger car in the US? Name a single one outside of VAG?

on.
There may be a reason for that... We would love to do it, but diesels are expensive, and awareness is low once you've satisfied the advocates.
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Old 10-07-2011, 11:17 AM   #33
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Diesel technology works best on the highway where the engine is subjected to constant loads.

Hybrid technology works best in the city where the engine is subjected to lots of variable loads.

A hybrid diesel would be very expensive and get worse highway fuel economy than a standard diesel while getting similar economy in the city to a cheaper gasoline hybrid.

A diesel with stop/start technology would probably provide 50% of the benefit of a hybrid system for far less money.

Most of us just simply wouldn't be willing to pay the extra money up front for an economy car that's both diesel and hybrid. You'd be talking about a $35-40,000 Impreza with the same interior/exterior as a $17,000 Impreza... but without the fun of an STI.

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I contend that diesel has many more "green" options than gas.
How so? You can't use high blends of biodiesel in a modern turbodiesel because it doesn't play nice with the evaporative emissions equipment.. and modifying the emissions equipment is against Federal law and sure to get any warranty work denied.

Source: 2nd reply to tdiclub.com discussion about B100 in TDIs

It's much safer and easier to run E85 in your gasoline powered Subaru if being green is more important to you than money. It's even more green to not drive an AWD car all year long if you don't need it. Most people would be fine with a Prius or VW TDI and an extra set of wheels with snow tires if they want to reduce fuel consumption.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:14 PM   #34
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Actually the truth is the Subaru diesel is already certified for U.S. emissions...

Subaru of America has said they won't bring the diesel until an automatic transmission is available because a manual transmission version won't sell.
But do you have a source for that? Because standard cars still sell in the US, but you'd be hard pressed to find a standard version of an auto car that wasn't designed for racing or a standard version that gets better MPG on the EPA cycle(coughautobiasedcough).

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what he said
Well gosh that makes sense Calamity, except the part about E85, it's not that simple. Either Subaru starts building FFV or people start doing aftermarket or DIY conversions. I don't want to know the odds that they would fail a warranty or two though...

Plus E85 isn't cheaper to run than Gasoline right now. Unless you're shooting for the Green thing or just to reduce Petrol consumption. It isn't going to save any money at the pump in the short term.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:24 PM   #35
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Then why is it that VW sells their entire TDI lineup at MSRP, and in some cases above sticker?

How is it that every subaru dealer I go to and ask about a diesel forester tells me I'm the eleventy billionth person to ask for one?

This is a terrible argument, I really wonder where they get this data that "people dont want a diesel here". Of any demographic, subaru drivers are the MOST likely to understand the advantages.
It's like the Legacy GT Wagon w/Manual. They only sold 500 of them. They sold zillions of outbacks. (They only MADE 500ish of them but whatever)

Well they sell ZERO diesels. So obviously they don't sell.
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:27 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Opie View Post
Actually the truth is the Subaru diesel is already certified for U.S. emissions...

Subaru of America has said they won't bring the diesel until an automatic transmission is available because a manual transmission version won't sell.
Yes, but I'd but a diesel with a CVT in a heartbeat. I imagine there are many that would line up with me. Make a hybrid diesel with CVT and they have a real winner!
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Old 10-07-2011, 06:43 PM   #37
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A traditional weakness of CVT transmissions is that they cannot handle as much torque as a comparable geared setup. You can get excessive slippage, and in turn, accelerated wear. This would work against the higher torque output of a diesel engine.
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:32 PM   #38
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Hybrids are a joke and waste of money. For the short term they should invest in improving their diesels and bring them over here. And for the long run invest in developing hydrogen technologies.
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Old 10-07-2011, 11:42 PM   #39
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There may be a reason for that... We would love to do it, but diesels are expensive, and awareness is low once you've satisfied the advocates.
Whats the reason other than cost? Risk? Do you guys really think the only reason VW is king of diesels is because they have the market cornered?

When shopping for a jetta TDI manual (because Subaru refuses to bring the Forester diesel here), we were constantly quoted $1-2k above sticker. They wont even sell them below MSRP. Why do they do this? Because they CAN!

Im telling you....if you think its just a matter of saturating the advocates, then how the heck in VW maintaining demand with inventory at MSRP year after year?

You have the product available, certified for the US, would it really be THAT huge of a risk/cost to test the waters? Heavens sake, GM is talking about a diesel Cruze. Hell has frozen over with that one.
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:52 AM   #40
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Hybrids are a joke and waste of money.
That's not entirely true. If you live in a city and dont do much highway driving. A hybrid is a great investment. The problem is that most people expect them to get 50mpg on the interstate doing 80mph.
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Old 10-08-2011, 01:08 PM   #41
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A traditional weakness of CVT transmissions is that they cannot handle as much torque as a comparable geared setup. You can get excessive slippage, and in turn, accelerated wear. This would work against the higher torque output of a diesel engine.
Yeah, that's when they used belts, like in the Subaru Justy.
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:33 PM   #42
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That's not entirely true. If you live in a city and dont do much highway driving. A hybrid is a great investment. The problem is that most people expect them to get 50mpg on the interstate doing 80mph.
A great investment for them money wise but a hybrids supposed to be "green" and help the environment, but the process of making the batteries does a lot more harm to the earth than a gas guzzler. Plus it's not so economical when you have to replace the battery pack after so many years.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:18 PM   #43
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A great investment for them money wise but a hybrids supposed to be "green" and help the environment, but the process of making the batteries does a lot more harm to the earth than a gas guzzler. Plus it's not so economical when you have to replace the battery pack after so many years.
The maintenance on a Hybrid is less than your average car, at least it is for the Prius/CT200h. No timing belt, no fan belts, oil changes are 10,000 miles, brakes last MUCH longer, coolant and tyranny fluid are "lifetime" fluids...

And the battery is not that big and can be recycled IF and when it does go bad (current reliability stats on the 10 year old Prius's are showing the batteries DON'T wear out like you are saying) the cost of replacing it isn't as high as all the maintenance costs over that same time frame on a simular vehicle that isn't hybrid. (Also note if it does die in 5-10 years, you can get a USED battery at that point for much less than a new one, maybe even convert it to a better quality battery or to a plug-in by that point).
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:26 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cefoskey View Post
Then why is it that VW sells their entire TDI lineup at MSRP, and in some cases above sticker?

How is it that every subaru dealer I go to and ask about a diesel forester tells me I'm the eleventy billionth person to ask for one?

This is a terrible argument, I really wonder where they get this data that "people dont want a diesel here". Of any demographic, subaru drivers are the MOST likely to understand the advantages.
I agree with you completely... Wasn't it subaru who said that their customers are extremely loyal, generally mid-upper income people who are interested in being "green". They generally buy a subaru every 7-9 years and like the notion of reliability and safety in their vehicles.

That, to me (a non "marketing" guy), SCREAMS diesel. Maybe they just don't want the additional headaches of one more type of engine/service procedure etc. Or maybe it's the emissions? Still, seems to me the excuse should NOT be lack of demand or anything of the sort. BRING it HERE!
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:52 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by cefoskey View Post
Then why is it that VW sells their entire TDI lineup at MSRP, and in some cases above sticker?

How is it that every subaru dealer I go to and ask about a diesel forester tells me I'm the eleventy billionth person to ask for one?

This is a terrible argument, I really wonder where they get this data that "people dont want a diesel here". Of any demographic, subaru drivers are the MOST likely to understand the advantages.
Thats VW. why do people always use that argument. VW sells diesel cars here. That't it. I don't see everyone driving TDI. therefore they must not be popular here. That's elementary statistics. Why is people so dumb, that's the next question.
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Old 10-08-2011, 09:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
The maintenance on a Hybrid is less than your average car, at least it is for the Prius/CT200h. No timing belt, no fan belts, oil changes are 10,000 miles, brakes last MUCH longer, coolant and tyranny fluid are "lifetime" fluids...

And the battery is not that big and can be recycled IF and when it does go bad (current reliability stats on the 10 year old Prius's are showing the batteries DON'T wear out like you are saying) the cost of replacing it isn't as high as all the maintenance costs over that same time frame on a simular vehicle that isn't hybrid. (Also note if it does die in 5-10 years, you can get a USED battery at that point for much less than a new one, maybe even convert it to a better quality battery or to a plug-in by that point).
That is true with the new hybrids that they have improved battery life so anyone buying new will not have a problem but it limits used car buying. And also half the point of a hybrid car (other than fuel saving) is that it's supposed to be green and tree hugging and save the earth, yadda yadda.

But in reality building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. Part of this is due to the fact that the production of lead nickel batteries is toxic, maybe you should google the Inco mine it Sudbury Ontario, it's the world's second largest nickel producer and is the single point cause of acid rain on the North American continent.

Motortrend also did an article on this http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6259...-go/index.html
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:24 AM   #47
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Why is people so dumb, that's the next question.


A good question indeed.
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:09 AM   #48
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That is true with the new hybrids that they have improved battery life so anyone buying new will not have a problem but it limits used car buying. And also half the point of a hybrid car (other than fuel saving) is that it's supposed to be green and tree hugging and save the earth, yadda yadda.

But in reality building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. Part of this is due to the fact that the production of lead nickel batteries is toxic, maybe you should google the Inco mine it Sudbury Ontario, it's the world's second largest nickel producer and is the single point cause of acid rain on the North American continent.

Motortrend also did an article on this http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6259...-go/index.html
Did MT factor in the nickel used to make the steel in the Hummer? Saying that the Prius is responsible for harmful mining operations is backwards logic. You might as well blame Hummer for the oil fields burning in 90's Kuwait. I holds just as much merit.
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Old 10-09-2011, 09:43 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by WinterSubie View Post
That is true with the new hybrids that they have improved battery life so anyone buying new will not have a problem but it limits used car buying. And also half the point of a hybrid car (other than fuel saving) is that it's supposed to be green and tree hugging and save the earth, yadda yadda.

But in reality building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. Part of this is due to the fact that the production of lead nickel batteries is toxic, maybe you should google the Inco mine it Sudbury Ontario, it's the world's second largest nickel producer and is the single point cause of acid rain on the North American continent.

Motortrend also did an article on this http://forums.motortrend.com/70/6259...-go/index.html

This article has been debunked about 1000 times already. Please stop reposting this virus.

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf
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Old 10-09-2011, 11:52 AM   #50
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This article has been debunked about 1000 times already. Please stop reposting this virus.

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf
That article doesn't seem to be debunking the main issue with the Prius, the harmful emissions produced from the manufacture of the batteries. The only thing that article seems to mention is the lifetime mileage of the vehicles in question.
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