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Old 10-09-2011, 12:13 PM   #51
cjnlstntxs
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I will jus say this SOA. I will never buy a hybrid. But if a Forester, Outback or hell even Tribeca come to US with the Diesel plant and 6 speed manual; I will trade my FXT in, in a heart beat. Especially with the 5k+ towing I could get rid of my old truck for the boat.

Damnit Subaru! At least test the market with the XV in diesel form.
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Old 10-09-2011, 12:40 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsrcrxsi View Post
That article doesn't seem to be debunking the main issue with the Prius, the harmful emissions produced from the manufacture of the batteries. The only thing that article seems to mention is the lifetime mileage of the vehicles in question.
It has been debunked many, many other times. Do some more research on the subject, or better yet read this:

Quote:
Another major part of the anti-Prius meme is that the car's battery uses 32 pounds of nickel, mined in Sudbury, Ontario. The skeptical e-mails often state that Sudbury is an environmental wasteland that resembles "a surrealistic scene from the depths of hell." That assertion might have been true about three decades ago, long before the Prius. Nickel mining is by no means a clean endeavor, but Sudbury's conditions have improved in recent years. On top of that, all cars contain nickel in their frames—the Hummer's frame, for example, has twice as much nickel as the Prius'. Also, nickel is 80 percent to 95 percent recoverable during the recycling process. (Future hybrids may use lithium batteries instead of NiMH, though the next-generation Prius does not.)
Sources:

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...id.single.html

I can't believe that people are daft enough to keep re-posting this nonsense.
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Old 10-09-2011, 02:05 PM   #53
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For the average consumer, which uses a car for several years and does not need to tow anything, what is the benefit of diesel?
Regarding MPG, keep in mind diesel may cost more, so effective $ per mile is not as good.
For superior MPG, I don't think towing will be possible.
Clean diesel is still hard to do. Some models need urea tank and exhaust treatment, to keep NOX and particulate matter low. Diesel, even clean diesel, is still a cause for health concerns, including respiratory issues, cancer and brain damage in infants.

http://www.environment.ucla.edu/repo...?parentid=1700
http://www.catf.us/resources/publications/view/82
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by ALafya View Post
Regarding MPG, keep in mind diesel may cost more, so effective $ per mile is not as good.
Yes it is.
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:21 PM   #55
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Whats the reason other than cost? Risk? Do you guys really think the only reason VW is king of diesels is because they have the market cornered?

When shopping for a jetta TDI manual (because Subaru refuses to bring the Forester diesel here), we were constantly quoted $1-2k above sticker. They wont even sell them below MSRP. Why do they do this? Because they CAN!

Im telling you....if you think its just a matter of saturating the advocates, then how the heck in VW maintaining demand with inventory at MSRP year after year?

You have the product available, certified for the US, would it really be THAT huge of a risk/cost to test the waters? Heavens sake, GM is talking about a diesel Cruze. Hell has frozen over with that one.
Isn't VW bigger than Subaru globally? The overall cost to the company may lend to selling diesels here just because "they can".

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Originally Posted by ALafya View Post
Yeah, that's when they used belts, like in the Subaru Justy.
I remember something during my training that Subaru was confident the Lineartronic CVT could handle 250hp. I would suspect they would want it to be able to handle much more than the motor they were putting on it.

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Originally Posted by Airborne_J View Post
I agree with you completely... Wasn't it subaru who said that their customers are extremely loyal, generally mid-upper income people who are interested in being "green". They generally buy a subaru every 7-9 years and like the notion of reliability and safety in their vehicles.

That, to me (a non "marketing" guy), SCREAMS diesel. Maybe they just don't want the additional headaches of one more type of engine/service procedure etc. Or maybe it's the emissions? Still, seems to me the excuse should NOT be lack of demand or anything of the sort. BRING it HERE!

They are also the ones that work the dealers to death on price; so, if the diesel is going to cost more than the non-diesel, they will be less likely to go for it. Right now, I think the costs wash each other out. Just buy the gas motor, pay cheaper price of gas and get OK mpg.

Genuine question here. Can anyone name a car the size of the Outback, that has AWD and gets the mpg that it does?
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:52 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALafya View Post
Yeah, that's when they used belts, like in the Subaru Justy.
What do you think they use now? The belt may be made from metal and linked like a chain, but it's still a belt that is squeezed between a pair of cones. There is no positive engagement like you have with gears or sprockets. AFAIK, Audi is the only company to have used a true chain-drive CVT (with positive engagement). If the belt starts to slip in your Subaru CVT (@250hp, or whatever), it's all downhill from there.
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Old 10-09-2011, 04:56 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Kostamojen View Post
Yes it is.
VW Jetta TDI gets 42/30 MPG (EPA).
Gasbuddy in my area shows cheapest gas/diesel is 3.65/3.92. It is more realistic to look at $ per mile, not MPG. 42/30 gets 'gas equivalent' of 39/28.
Obviously, 39/28 is < 42/30.
(True, VW can do much better probably, but they don't).
Yahoo autos shows $21,600 invoice for TDI.
VW long and short term reliability is well known to be well below average.
Other compact cars get 40/29 MPG highway, e.g. Elantra which costs less at $17K for 6AT.
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Old 10-09-2011, 05:31 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALafya View Post
VW Jetta TDI gets 42/30 MPG (EPA).
Gasbuddy in my area shows cheapest gas/diesel is 3.65/3.92. It is more realistic to look at $ per mile, not MPG. 42/30 gets 'gas equivalent' of 39/28.
Obviously, 39/28 is < 42/30.
(True, VW can do much better probably, but they don't).
Yahoo autos shows $21,600 invoice for TDI.
VW long and short term reliability is well known to be well below average.
Other compact cars get 40/29 MPG highway, e.g. Elantra which costs less at $17K for 6AT.
Hmm? What other factor besides fuel cost might make a car enthusiast consider buying a diesel over a gasoline powered car? How about 236 lbs/ft of torque for the TDI versus the puny 121 lbs/ft for the Elantra? Diesel allows a bit of fun to go along with 40 mpg. The 258 lbs/ft of Boxer diesel would be a welcome addition to the Impreza and Forester.

Guy
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Old 10-09-2011, 07:40 PM   #59
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car enthusiast consider buying a diesel ... would be a welcome addition
Exactly right. SOA seem to currently think diesel will be a hard sell because of the increased cost. Enthusiasts are not the general public.
C&D review for the Jetta TDI, which overall liked the engine, said it should be cheaper and the price is hard to justify.
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Old 10-09-2011, 08:38 PM   #60
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Why diesels are on the way out:
1) It is getting harder and harder to meet emissions requirements for diesels. Europe focuses on CO2, little focus on NOx. USA focuses heavily on NOx. The 50-state light-duty vehicle limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides is 0.07 grams per mile. In Western Europe, the limit is 0.29. Thus, we see a lot of add'l equipment required for US diesels. This adds cost and reliability issues.
2) Gasoline engines are improving to deliver diesel like torque delivery with the widespread utilization of direct injection. You flatten the torque curve, giving it a lot of torque at very low RPM and this allows you to make the gears taller. This cost is a lot lower than a diesel engine, in general. You get improved fuel economy and still have the fun area of the rev range instead of life ending at 4000RPM.
3) Diesels have no way of recovering energy. If you are going to pay a premium for an efficient drivetrain, doesn't it make more sense to choose the cost premium where you actually get to recover energy that is normally lost to heat? Developing a hybrid drivetrain actually gives you experience and knowledge to where the automobile drivetrain is heading in the future. If we come up with a way to burn hydrogen, for example, you can still utilize what you've learned from hybrid drivetrains to make an even more efficient hydrogen vehicle. All that money you spend developing a system to get your NOx emissions within the US requirements is pretty much wasted money.

Anyway, I'm not shocked that Subaru isn't using a full blown HSD system on their hybrids. As far as I know, Toyota's HSD isn't compatible with a longitudinal layout like Subaru would need in anything other than what they put in the Lexus LS and GS hybrids (e.g. Expensive!) All the Toyota HSD cars are transverse engines (Camry, Prius, CT, HS, Highlander, RX) and the AWD models don't have a mechanical connection from the rear wheels to the engine. The Highlander and RX basically have an add'l electric motor hooked to the rear diff that powers the rear wheels when needed.

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Old 10-09-2011, 09:39 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
Did MT factor in the nickel used to make the steel in the Hummer? Saying that the Prius is responsible for harmful mining operations is backwards logic. You might as well blame Hummer for the oil fields burning in 90's Kuwait. I holds just as much merit.
Do they use nickel to Make the steel in a prius?

Edit, never mind, I saw the earlier post.
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:26 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
What do you think they use now? The belt may be made from metal and linked like a chain, but it's still a belt that is squeezed between a pair of cones. There is no positive engagement like you have with gears or sprockets. AFAIK, Audi is the only company to have used a true chain-drive CVT (with positive engagement). If the belt starts to slip in your Subaru CVT (@250hp, or whatever), it's all downhill from there.

Don't think I am following you. I just looked at a bunch of diagrams of some Audi CVTs. Subaru's Lineartronic looks pretty much the same. The pin and link design look a bit different, but looks like it works the same way.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:25 AM   #63
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You're right, I don't think Audi's has positive engagement either... they're just the first to use the metal belt. I thought I had found a diagram that showed a positive engagement CVT, but apparently I derped and just completely missed the giant cone next to the belt.

I'm not saying that Subaru's CVT is unreliable. So far it seems to have a pretty good record unless Subaru is doing a bang-up job of keeping unhappy customers eerily quiet... which isn't likely at all. But there are still fairly strict limitations on a CVT's ability to handle torque. Subaru probably won't sell any CVTs connected to anything with a turbo until they can produce a far stronger version because they know some yahoo with a 2.5GT and an Accessport could give them a bad name by trashing the CVT on the internet.

A diesel would be equally bad.. adding boost and more fuel to a diesel isn't exactly rocket surgery.
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Old 10-10-2011, 04:34 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
You're right, I don't think Audi's has positive engagement either... they're just the first to use the metal belt. I thought I had found a diagram that showed a positive engagement CVT, but apparently I derped and just completely missed the giant cone next to the belt.

I'm not saying that Subaru's CVT is unreliable. So far it seems to have a pretty good record unless Subaru is doing a bang-up job of keeping unhappy customers eerily quiet... which isn't likely at all. But there are still fairly strict limitations on a CVT's ability to handle torque. Subaru probably won't sell any CVTs connected to anything with a turbo until they can produce a far stronger version because they know some yahoo with a 2.5GT and an Accessport could give them a bad name by trashing the CVT on the internet.

A diesel would be equally bad.. adding boost and more fuel to a diesel isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Nice. It doesn't take a brain scientist to perform rocket surgery.
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:40 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JustyWRC View Post
Don't think I am following you. I just looked at a bunch of diagrams of some Audi CVTs. Subaru's Lineartronic looks pretty much the same. The pin and link design look a bit different, but looks like it works the same way.
BTW, Nissan Murano is 240 lb-ft and has CVT 4K - 4.4K lb curb weight.
I hope the engineers know what they are doing, so we don't have to worry about obvious design flaws.
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:36 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
You're right, I don't think Audi's has positive engagement either... they're just the first to use the metal belt. I thought I had found a diagram that showed a positive engagement CVT, but apparently I derped and just completely missed the giant cone next to the belt.

I'm not saying that Subaru's CVT is unreliable. So far it seems to have a pretty good record unless Subaru is doing a bang-up job of keeping unhappy customers eerily quiet... which isn't likely at all. But there are still fairly strict limitations on a CVT's ability to handle torque. Subaru probably won't sell any CVTs connected to anything with a turbo until they can produce a far stronger version because they know some yahoo with a 2.5GT and an Accessport could give them a bad name by trashing the CVT on the internet.

A diesel would be equally bad.. adding boost and more fuel to a diesel isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Nissan Murano CC 265 hp & 248 lb/ft torque... CVT
Nissan Maxima 290 hp & 261 lb/ft torque... CVT
Lexus LS Hybrid 438 hp & 385 lb/ft torque... CVT
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:43 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoDealer

Nissan Murano CC 265 hp & 248 lb/ft torque... CVT
Nissan Maxima 290 hp & 261 lb/ft torque... CVT
Lexus LS Hybrid 438 hp & 385 lb/ft torque... CVT
LS isn't a belt style CVT. It is a planetary gear set controlled by an electric motor. Totally different animal.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:31 AM   #68
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And the Nissan units are notorious for failing.

Anyway, the point of that statement is that unlike a manual or auto trans where new gearsets, torque converters and coolers can allow the transmissions to handle more power reliably, the belt-driven CVT can only handle what it was originally designed for.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:54 AM   #69
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And the Nissan units are notorious for failing.
True. Not sure how Nissan did not figure it out for ~9 years now.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:47 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by ALafya

True. Not sure how Nissan did not figure it out for ~9 years now.
Nissan can't do much right these days.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:44 PM   #71
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How so? You can't use high blends of biodiesel in a modern turbodiesel because it doesn't play nice with the evaporative emissions equipment.. and modifying the emissions equipment is against Federal law and sure to get any warranty work denied.

It's much safer and easier to run E85 in your gasoline powered Subaru if being green is more important to you than money. It's even more green to not drive an AWD car all year long if you don't need it. Most people would be fine with a Prius or VW TDI and an extra set of wheels with snow tires if they want to reduce fuel consumption.
Please don't confuse "green" with renewable. There is nothing in the current production of E85 that is "green". Renewable yes, "green" no.

Diesel has many more base stock options for production that are actually "green".

Peace,

Greg
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:59 PM   #72
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Nissan can't do much right these days.
Shift_Yourexpectationsofquality
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:37 PM   #73
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Nissan can't do much right these days.
Excluding the GT-R
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:01 PM   #74
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What does the difficult-to-match-up hybrid systems have to do with the RWD coupe? And Subaru and Toyota ARE both selling the coupe at their respective dealerships.

This partnership already seems to be more productive than with GM, but I'm glad to see Subaru remain independent-minded. They're making money producing Camrys, have studied Toyota's methods to gain efficiencies that have helped keep Subaru's costs down, have outsourced their unprofitable kei-car production (a mixed bag) to Toyota allowing focus of precious resources elsewhere, and maybe they're able to take advantage of some economy-of-scale parts purchases (though I don't know).
I probably didn't word my comment correctly. When two large companies come together like this, you would think that Subaru's tip-toeing into the hybrid market would include Toyota.

I guess I can't really say much because both coupes aren't even out yet.
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Old 10-11-2011, 07:27 PM   #75
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I probably didn't word my comment correctly. When two large companies come together like this, you would think that Subaru's tip-toeing into the hybrid market would include Toyota.

I guess I can't really say much because both coupes aren't even out yet.
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Originally Posted by SoDealer View Post

Regarding Subaru's hybrid, they developed their own system that was cost prohibitive. After the Toyota tie up, Subaru was all in for using Toyota's system; however, there were a lot of difficulties creating a system that would work acceptably as a symmetrical AWD hybrid. Things went back to the drawing board, and now it's coming to fruition.
previous note on this subject
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