Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday July 6, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Warranty Issues & SOA Problems

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2013, 03:14 PM   #1
mechatricity
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 290592
Join Date: Aug 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
15 Outback,
15 WRX 6MT CWP

Default Frustrating warranty (ultimately non-warranty) battery replacement

Early last week, my 04 began to start slowly when very hot out. I figured the battery was on it's way out. I started making calls to get the service record for the battery faxed to my local dealership so i could pursue warranty replacement. The battery is ~40 months old, installed early 2010, so outside the 30 month replacement but within the proration period.

Friday rolls around and the slow starts persist but it hasn't stranded me yet. I stopped to get gas friday afternoon, and the car won't start after filling up, battery is toast. I started making calls and got into my dealership this morning at 11:15. Had to jump the car to get it out of the gas station, then two more times last night and this morning to move it.

I was advised when i got there of a $35 battery inspection fee that would be covered if they deemed the battery bad. I figured this was a no brainer so i let them go ahead. 1 hour and 30 minutes later the service writer comes back and says the battery and alternator passed fine. Their next suggestion was an $80 load draw test on the electrical system. I said no, and i'd like to speak to the tech.

The tech was great. I told him all the details again that i had relayed to the service writer, with particular emphasis on the car failing to start at the gas station. He says "oh, she didn't tell me that, it's definitely the battery then."

So the service writer is advised that i want to pursue battery replacement under the proration warranty. another 30 minutes goes by, and the service writer comes back and says "since it didn't fail the electrical diagnostic, we can't invoke the warranty." After much back and forth and me getting pretty animated, they stand their ground. They quote me $106 for the battery, and i'm already on the hook for the test since it won't be covered under warranty, so with tax, etc $158 out the door.

It didn't make sense to bail to autozone at that point since i had to pay for the test and it would be a $125 bill at autozone, so i just had them replace it.

So now i have another Subaru battery, but what do i do when this happens again in 2 or 3 years and it again won't fail Subaru's battery test? How can a car that i had to jump to get there not fail the damn battery test?

apologies for the wall of text. Pretty frustrated at this point.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
mechatricity is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 07-27-2013, 03:20 PM   #2
Bobert0989
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 333876
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Richmond, KY
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
Silver

Default

Find a way to break it next time before you let the dealership test it. Will they replace it for a crack in the battery case?
Bobert0989 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 03:59 PM   #3
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Learn how to change a battery and stop being cheap.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 04:08 PM   #4
DentMagnet
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 352689
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: MD
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza
dark green but looks blak

Default

If your car now works. . .while cranking, measure:
battery voltage at the posts, not at the clamps (>9.6vdc)
battery current (~200A)
starter motor voltage at the post (maybe 1/2 volt less than battery voltage)
voltage across the solenoid posts that carry cranking current (maybe a dozen millivolts)

Your test equipment will pay for itself in a hurry and you will not have to depend on the competence and honesty of others but you may have to look around for a DC clampon ammeter. I've got the B+K Precision CP-3 which converts 1A AC or DC up to 400A, to 1mV AC or DC for input to a DVM.

BTW, 93% of the people distrust car salesmen (from an article on a NY TV station and in public opinion polls, >3/4ths = unanimous), and in a big city service writers may make $120K/yr (from an insider). Car company profits per year may be in the 40% range (from a wrongful death lawsuit, public record).
At the other end, 85% trust nurses.

Why at the posts and not at the clamps or terminals? The barely understood term "contact resistance."

Last edited by DentMagnet; 07-27-2013 at 04:15 PM.
DentMagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 04:14 PM   #5
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DentMagnet View Post
BTW, 93% of the people distrust car salesmen (from an article on a NY TV station and in public opinion polls, >3/4ths = unanimous), and in a big city service writers may make $120K/yr (from an insider). Car company profits per year may be in the 40% range (from a wrongful death lawsuit, public record).
At the other end, 85% trust nurses.

Why at the posts and not at the clamps or terminals? The barely understood term "contact resistance."
Cool story.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 04:28 PM   #6
blackfang
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 131347
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Richmond Va
Vehicle:
2007 Legacy 2.5i SE
98 Z/28, VN 900 custom

Default

That makes absolutely no sense. If the battery was good and passed the battery test, why did they recommend replacement as the part deemed to be ok according to their tests? It is either going to fail the test, say recharge and retest or pass.

So you paid them to test the battery and replace it? What a rip off and I am a service advisor. There are very few diagnosis where the customer pays in addition to the repair and a 2 minute battery/charging system test is not one of them. It is an either or. You buy the battery and the test is waived, or you say no and pay for the test.
blackfang is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 05:13 PM   #7
mechatricity
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 290592
Join Date: Aug 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
15 Outback,
15 WRX 6MT CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfang View Post
That makes absolutely no sense. If the battery was good and passed the battery test, why did they recommend replacement as the part deemed to be ok according to their tests? It is either going to fail the test, say recharge and retest or pass.

So you paid them to test the battery and replace it? What a rip off and I am a service advisor. There are very few diagnosis where the customer pays in addition to the repair and a 2 minute battery/charging system test is not one of them. It is an either or. You buy the battery and the test is waived, or you say no and pay for the test.
They charged me the battery cost and the cost to test. The line items on my invoice are the battery and "SBATT TEST BATTERY CLEAN CABLES CHARGE OR REPLACE BATTERY AS NEEDED - 17105 CS - $39.95"

Quote:
Originally Posted by DentMagnet View Post
If your car now works. . .while cranking, measure:
battery voltage at the posts, not at the clamps (>9.6vdc)
battery current (~200A)
starter motor voltage at the post (maybe 1/2 volt less than battery voltage)
voltage across the solenoid posts that carry cranking current (maybe a dozen millivolts)

Your test equipment will pay for itself in a hurry and you will not have to depend on the competence and honesty of others but you may have to look around for a DC clampon ammeter. I've got the B+K Precision CP-3 which converts 1A AC or DC up to 400A, to 1mV AC or DC for input to a DVM.

BTW, 93% of the people distrust car salesmen (from an article on a NY TV station and in public opinion polls, >3/4ths = unanimous), and in a big city service writers may make $120K/yr (from an insider). Car company profits per year may be in the 40% range (from a wrongful death lawsuit, public record).
At the other end, 85% trust nurses.

Why at the posts and not at the clamps or terminals? The barely understood term "contact resistance."
Thanks for the info. There was no question in my mind that the battery was shot, but according them it had to fail on subaru test equipment to invoke the warranty.

also, for others, this has nothing to do with my being cheap, etc. The battery had a warranty, i planned to use it.
mechatricity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #8
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechatricity View Post
They charged me the battery cost and the cost to test. The line items on my invoice are the battery and "SBATT TEST BATTERY CLEAN CABLES CHARGE OR REPLACE BATTERY AS NEEDED - 17105 CS - $39.95"



Thanks for the info. There was no question in my mind that the battery was shot, but according them it had to fail on subaru test equipment to invoke the warranty.

also, for others, this has nothing to do with my being cheap, etc. The battery had a warranty, i planned to use it.
Obviously it didn't work out for you. Being a tech and understanding how things work has me look at this in a different way then you and quite frankly know how the system works. If the battery is tested good it doesn't matter what you say happened the battery tested good so the warranty means nothing. Once you talk to the tech and said I jumped it this many times to get it here the choice is yours to replace the battery. We don't charge for battery tests at our dealer but honestly I wish we did. I'm sure most people understand that working for free isn't a cool thing.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 06:06 PM   #9
mechatricity
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 290592
Join Date: Aug 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
15 Outback,
15 WRX 6MT CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supraru View Post
Obviously it didn't work out for you. Being a tech and understanding how things work has me look at this in a different way then you and quite frankly know how the system works. If the battery is tested good it doesn't matter what you say happened the battery tested good so the warranty means nothing. Once you talk to the tech and said I jumped it this many times to get it here the choice is yours to replace the battery. We don't charge for battery tests at our dealer but honestly I wish we did. I'm sure most people understand that working for free isn't a cool thing.
I completely understand that, and i understand the tech and the dealership can't say "oh you had to jump it? **** of course we'll replace it!"

So as a tech, have you seen this scenario where your diagnostics tell you the battery is fine but it quite obviously is not?

I'm not necessarily saying the dealership should have made an exception, but knowing the battery was in the state it was, i never expected to end up in the scenario i did.
mechatricity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 06:15 PM   #10
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechatricity View Post
I completely understand that, and i understand the tech and the dealership can't say "oh you had to jump it? **** of course we'll replace it!"

So as a tech, have you seen this scenario where your diagnostics tell you the battery is fine but it quite obviously is not?

I'm not necessarily saying the dealership should have made an exception, but knowing the battery was in the state it was, i never expected to end up in the scenario i did.
As a tech I never assume. I let the numbers do the talking. If the tester says the battery is good then it's good. Perfect example is my mom always used to be horrible with leaving her dome light on and consistently killed the battery but wouldn't admit she left the light on. If she would have come in as a customer saying her battery kept dying and it's ridiculous that it needs to be replaced under warranty and the test results came up as a good battery then it's a good battery. It's actually quite funny as much as people don't trust dealers and mechanics in most cases the customers always lie about stuff to try and get things for free. This is why things are the way they are. Businesses aren't just going to hand out out money and say things are bad when tests say they aren't just because you say it is. For all we know you're a weird person who believes in his head after three years the battery isn't good anymore so you want a new one so you try and tell us it died 5 times. Not saying this is true but we see very weird things.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 08:35 PM   #11
mechatricity
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 290592
Join Date: Aug 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
15 Outback,
15 WRX 6MT CWP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supraru View Post
As a tech I never assume. I let the numbers do the talking. If the tester says the battery is good then it's good. Perfect example is my mom always used to be horrible with leaving her dome light on and consistently killed the battery but wouldn't admit she left the light on. If she would have come in as a customer saying her battery kept dying and it's ridiculous that it needs to be replaced under warranty and the test results came up as a good battery then it's a good battery. It's actually quite funny as much as people don't trust dealers and mechanics in most cases the customers always lie about stuff to try and get things for free. This is why things are the way they are. Businesses aren't just going to hand out out money and say things are bad when tests say they aren't just because you say it is. For all we know you're a weird person who believes in his head after three years the battery isn't good anymore so you want a new one so you try and tell us it died 5 times. Not saying this is true but we see very weird things.
You're required to let the numbers do the talking. I acknowledge that, but you didn't answer my question. And, as i mentioned i didn't expect the dealership to hand over a new battery. I also never dreamed it would pass after stranding me at a gas station having just driven 40 miles.

I'm sure you deal with some ****. i can only imagine. I take good care of my cars and do my own work, and generally they reward me for it. Evidently the universe was against me this time.
mechatricity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 09:34 PM   #12
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechatricity View Post
You're required to let the numbers do the talking. I acknowledge that, but you didn't answer my question. And, as i mentioned i didn't expect the dealership to hand over a new battery. I also never dreamed it would pass after stranding me at a gas station having just driven 40 miles.

I'm sure you deal with some ****. i can only imagine. I take good care of my cars and do my own work, and generally they reward me for it. Evidently the universe was against me this time.
I have come across plenty situations like yours. And in the end when the car sits in my bay and the battery tests good we can't warranty it. When we run the test we plug in the last 4 of the vin into the tester. They use that log to cross reference into warranty claims. So if they pull the vin and the battery shows good then you'll be in trouble I'm sure. Subaru didn't just "give" you a battery. They wouldn't do this without your approval. All we can do is relay the information and let the customer make the decision. You as the customer can choose to drive it till it is dead or buy a new battery since you know it'll just leave you stranded. That choice is on you. If you are worried about the couple bucks you'll get off of a new battery for being prorated then let it die. Me personally as soon as the battery starts acting up on me I just buy a new battery. I don't care about the couple extra bucks it may cost. My time and convenience is far more important to me. Breaking down over a simple fix is never an option for me.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 10:17 AM   #13
CRAZYHAWK
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 198067
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: RAMSEY, NJ
Vehicle:
2009 IMPREZA 2.5i 4d
WHITE Premium

Default

CRAZYHAWK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:34 PM   #14
DentMagnet
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 352689
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: MD
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza
dark green but looks blak

Default

Knowing what we all know now, was there any strategy the OP could have followed that might have given him a better outcome?

This is sort of a zero sum game, where the dealer's gain is the customer's loss. Game Theory says if you will never see a customer again you should cheat him to the max but be fair with customers who may come back. . .see
Thinking Strategically: The Competitive Edge in Business, Politics, and Everyday Life: Avinash K. Dixit, Barry J. Nalebuff: 9780393310351: Amazon.com: BooksThinking Strategically: The Competitive Edge in Business, Politics, and Everyday Life: Avinash K. Dixit, Barry J. Nalebuff: 9780393310351: Amazon.com: Books

The US legal system modifies this somewhat so that the customer should not feel so cheated or outraged that he sues.

If, at the end of your business with the dealer, he tells you that you have "won something" or the like, you have definitely been taken.
DentMagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 07:17 PM   #15
Blktrax
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 220971
Join Date: Aug 2009
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Havelock, NC
Vehicle:
2002 WRX 213K Mi.
Original Motor and Turbo

Default

The simple answer is, its depends on the dealership.

Some dealers, if you have a service history will not charge to install or diag, others will rake you over the coals.

Suparu is correct, as far as the tech is concerned, pass is pass, fail is fail. As far as a warranty claim goes, there has to be documentation of the failure for the claim to be processed.

Also OP is dealing with a parts warranty, this gets sticky as most parts carry a 12month/unlimited mileage mile warranty in the US.

Batteries are covered 30mo/unlimited-mi free replacement, then pro- rated part only out to their 85mo coverage. The coverage is Tier-ed, not month to month (I believe 6 month blocks). I don't have access to the parts side to see what exactly those tiers are, but I do know having replaced batteries under warranty.


OP situation, He was going to have to pay install anyway because of being past 30/umi.

The diag charge is typical to hopefully verify the charging system is functioning properly.

As one post said, "break it before you take it in" physical damage would not be covered and a matter of insurance.

Link found to battery info:
http://www.subaru.com/content/downlo...ngBrochure.pdf

Last edited by Blktrax; 07-28-2013 at 10:51 PM. Reason: Found the battery warranty guide, yes it is 30-month free replacement, and pro rated after.
Blktrax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 08:51 PM   #16
blackfang
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 131347
Join Date: Nov 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Richmond Va
Vehicle:
2007 Legacy 2.5i SE
98 Z/28, VN 900 custom

Default

Actually the battery has a 30 month free replacement and then the rest of the time frame it is prorated.
blackfang is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 11:54 PM   #17
69subaru360
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 159682
Join Date: Sep 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:
1995 WRX
2015 F150 (ordered)

Default

The real problem here is those new electronic testers the dealers are required to use for warranty claims don't load the battery like the old school carbon pile testers used to. Some problems won't show up until you load test it a few times.
69subaru360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 01:42 PM   #18
DentMagnet
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 352689
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: MD
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza
dark green but looks blak

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69subaru360 View Post
. . .the old school carbon pile testers. . .
I made one but I haven't had the chance to test it out.
It's a resistor made from an iron coat hanger wire, coiled up and immersed in water or oil so the wire doesn't melt.
This wire will draw maybe a kw from your battery. The shorter the wire length, the more current pulled.
No shock danger at 12v, but wear face protection.
DentMagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2013, 10:35 AM   #19
njfam1
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 372732
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

I have a similar story, but the car is 5 weeks old and has 1100 miles on it- and they won't replace the battery- because it 'passes'. The problem is that there are - though rarely- situations where a battery will not outright fail, or does not have a bad cell- but discharges too quickly and charges too quickly due to an internal flaw in manufacturing. It is rare- you have to do a load test over time- and its just not worth it when $130 will get you a new one. Subaru could be a little more helpful on this topic- they are losing me over $130. I will write another post telling my story.
njfam1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 05:01 PM   #20
Grimieal
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 377229
Join Date: Dec 2013
Default

If the battery passes it's gr-8 test it's a good battery. If it keeps dying either your leaving lights on, not driving enough to charge it , or you have a dark current(draw). GR-8 doesn't lie. Customers do.
Grimieal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2014, 05:18 PM   #21
SpamBot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 287534
Join Date: Jul 2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DentMagnet View Post
I made one but I haven't had the chance to test it out.
It's a resistor made from an iron coat hanger wire, coiled up and immersed in water or oil so the wire doesn't melt.
This wire will draw maybe a kw from your battery. The shorter the wire length, the more current pulled.
No shock danger at 12v, but wear face protection.
Please don't test that. Carbon pile testers can be 'dialed in' for the correct amount of draw. Typically, that would be one half the cold cranking amp (CCA) rating of the battery for 15 seconds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimieal View Post
If the battery passes it's gr-8 test it's a good battery. If it keeps dying either your leaving lights on, not driving enough to charge it , or you have a dark current(draw). GR-8 doesn't lie. Customers do.
The GR-8 is a fancied up version of the GR-1.

The GR-1 gave you false results more often than a politician fresh off the campaign trail.
SpamBot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2014, 05:46 PM   #22
DentMagnet
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 352689
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: MD
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza
dark green but looks blak

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
Please don't test that. Carbon pile testers can be 'dialed in' for the correct amount of draw. Typically, that would be one half the cold cranking amp (CCA) rating of the battery for 15 seconds.



The GR-8 is a fancied up version of the GR-1.

The GR-1 gave you false results more often than a politician fresh off the campaign trail.
"False positives" (a bad battery tests good) or "false negatives" (a good battery tests bad)? Both can't be minimized at the same time.

And with medical tests there's a lot more riding on them than a questionable battery.
DentMagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.