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Old 10-10-2011, 09:30 AM   #1
jnmarshall
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Default What happened to Realtime maps?

Just acquired a 2011 WRX and a Cobb AP v2. Looking at the maps there is only one flavor available. In the old days (v1) there use to be Base maps and Realtime maps. The Basemap was used when you "married" or flashed the ECU. After that you could make changes using the Realtime map and not fiddle with green connectors and jumper blocks under the dash (I know they are gone in '11). There also use to be a reported limitation that you could only reflash the ECU 100 times which seemed to be the appeal or marketing of Realtime maps vs. opensource reflashes. Though the opensource camp would dispute this.
Are realtime maps gone or not needed? IS there a limit on reflashes?
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:10 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by jnmarshall View Post
Just acquired a 2011 WRX and a Cobb AP v2. Looking at the maps there is only one flavor available. In the old days (v1) there use to be Base maps and Realtime maps. The Basemap was used when you "married" or flashed the ECU. After that you could make changes using the Realtime map and not fiddle with green connectors and jumper blocks under the dash (I know they are gone in '11). There also use to be a reported limitation that you could only reflash the ECU 100 times which seemed to be the appeal or marketing of Realtime maps vs. opensource reflashes. Though the opensource camp would dispute this.
Are realtime maps gone or not needed? IS there a limit on reflashes?
The v2 AP has the same real-time functionality as the v1, just that it is all contained in one map. That is, you can flash a given map as "reflash" or "real-time" without the need for separate maps for each.

In the early days of flashing, it was not known how many reflashes the ECU could generally take before failure. This was quite simply because not enough people had flashed more than the microcontroller manufacturer's stated "limit". Over the years, it appears that this is not much of a concern, although the number of flashes before degradation is certainly not infinite.

The primary advantage of real-time maps is that it allows you to very quickly make a temporary change on top of your "base" map without going through the longer process of the reflash. A real-time flash modifies the 10 or so most important/most tuned tables. A reflash can potentially modify hundreds of tables (although much less in the typical tune). As such, you should always reflash major map changes to match the mods and octane gas you are running. Real-time should be used for temporary changes like fuel economy, anti-theft, valet, etc.

The other advantage to real-time is that is allow you to tune the car (via AccessTUNER software) without shutting the motor off. This is a huge advantage (especially on the dyno).

Bill
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:24 AM   #3
2Fast4U1DAY
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So if you are looking for fuel economy, you could load the fuel economy Map as a real time map, on top of the stg 2 for say a long trip, and then when you are done, reflash the real time map to the stg 2 93 octane map?
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Old 10-10-2011, 11:52 AM   #4
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So if you are looking for fuel economy, you could load the fuel economy Map as a real time map, on top of the stg 2 for say a long trip, and then when you are done, reflash the real time map to the stg 2 93 octane map?
Yep, that is the idea. And certainly it doesn't just have to be the non-performance maps that you flash as real-time. If you are doing your own tuning or having a Cobb protuner tune for your car, you could create, for example, maps with different levels of boost (with maybe other changes to timing/fuel) that you could quickly change to as you are, for example, doing runs at a drag-strip or laps when road racing to account for different conditions seen at the track. There are a lot of possibilities here.

But, you want to make sure your base map is appropriate for your mods and gas. Real-time maps will be reset to the base map when you disconnect the car's battery, reflash a new map, or reset the ECU. So, you wouldn't want to have, for example, a stage 1 map as your base map when you are stage 2, etc.

Bill
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Old 10-10-2011, 09:32 PM   #5
2Fast4U1DAY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning
Yep, that is the idea. And certainly it doesn't just have to be the non-performance maps that you flash as real-time. If you are doing your own tuning or having a Cobb protuner tune for your car, you could create, for example, maps with different levels of boost (with maybe other changes to timing/fuel) that you could quickly change to as you are, for example, doing runs at a drag-strip or laps when road racing to account for different conditions seen at the track. There are a lot of possibilities here.

But, you want to make sure your base map is appropriate for your mods and gas. Real-time maps will be reset to the base map when you disconnect the car's battery, reflash a new map, or reset the ECU. So, you wouldn't want to have, for example, a stage 1 map as your base map when you are stage 2, etc.

Bill
That's pretty sweet. Although I wish I had known that it was safe to do so on my long trip two weeks ago. Oh well, I still averaged like 27MPG on the highway

Edit: I guess I didnt ask either, so it's totally my fault lol
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Old 04-16-2012, 01:49 PM   #6
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I guess I'm still not clear on the real time map loading because I had my tuner build me a race gas map with race tune, which did not work as a real time map.
The car generally runs on a 91 ACN map which is set as the base. We flashed the 100 octane map real time and went to the drag strip. The car didn't run any better than usual, so I reflashed the base to the 100 octane map and then it ran as it should. This indicates that the race gas map real time reflash was not effective. Do I have a defective unit or does the real time mapping only work on some parameters, and if so, how do I tell which ones?

BTW: Both base and race gas maps were dyno tuned using Cobb race tune and all supporting mods are accounted for.

Last edited by Scum; 04-16-2012 at 01:54 PM. Reason: additional info
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:48 PM   #7
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Real time only affects certain parameters. Check your tune in ATR to see which ones do what.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Yep, that is the idea. And certainly it doesn't just have to be the non-performance maps that you flash as real-time. If you are doing your own tuning or having a Cobb protuner tune for your car, you could create, for example, maps with different levels of boost (with maybe other changes to timing/fuel) that you could quickly change to as you are, for example, doing runs at a drag-strip or laps when road racing to account for different conditions seen at the track. There are a lot of possibilities here.

But, you want to make sure your base map is appropriate for your mods and gas. Real-time maps will be reset to the base map when you disconnect the car's battery, reflash a new map, or reset the ECU. So, you wouldn't want to have, for example, a stage 1 map as your base map when you are stage 2, etc.

Bill
So this quote is very misleading?
My base map is appropriate for my mods and gas.
My realtime flash is temporary for the dragstrip, until I run through the tank of race gas.
My issue was easily remedied, but not documented anywhere on their site and therefore does not perform as advertised. I would not want to fill up with premium and forget to reflash the base map now.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:42 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Scum View Post
So this quote is very misleading?
My base map is appropriate for my mods and gas.
My realtime flash is temporary for the dragstrip, until I run through the tank of race gas.
My issue was easily remedied, but not documented anywhere on their site and therefore does not perform as advertised. I would not want to fill up with premium and forget to reflash the base map now.
Why is it misleading? Nobody knows what happened with your particular realtime map, and you haven't provided enough details for anyone to help. What parameters were changed for your 100 octane map, have you confirmed that those parameters are modifiable realtime, and did you correctly apply the realtime settings? Have you tested with any other real-time flashes since? It sounds like what you need to do is fact-gather and troubleshoot your particular situation rather than make sweeping claims about how the entire real-time system works.
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:59 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Yep, that is the idea. And certainly it doesn't just have to be the non-performance maps that you flash as real-time. If you are doing your own tuning or having a Cobb protuner tune for your car, you could create, for example, maps with different levels of boost (with maybe other changes to timing/fuel) that you could quickly change to as you are, for example, doing runs at a drag-strip or laps when road racing to account for different conditions seen at the track. There are a lot of possibilities here.

But, you want to make sure your base map is appropriate for your mods and gas. Real-time maps will be reset to the base map when you disconnect the car's battery, reflash a new map, or reset the ECU. So, you wouldn't want to have, for example, a stage 1 map as your base map when you are stage 2, etc.

Bill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dartholomew View Post
Why is it misleading? Nobody knows what happened with your particular realtime map, and you haven't provided enough details for anyone to help. What parameters were changed for your 100 octane map, have you confirmed that those parameters are modifiable realtime, and did you correctly apply the realtime settings? Have you tested with any other real-time flashes since? It sounds like what you need to do is fact-gather and troubleshoot your particular situation rather than make sweeping claims about how the entire real-time system works.
If you read MY original post, you'll see that I was unclear about how the real-time flashes worked now. Like the original poster, I started with a v1 and then upgraded to v2 accessport and have not changed a map in years (I have had no need). It seems that the process has changed, probably with the advent of race tune, and it seems that there are a lot of new variables. I have not been able to find much information about how the "entire real-time system works" which is why I posted here.
Black94Snake was kind enough to point out that only certain parameters are modifiable which makes sense now.
I have no need to troubleshoot my situation. I found a solution and now understand why the real-time map did not work. I'm simply pointing out that Bill's "sweeping claim" that I can just flash a real-time map for the dragstrip, is exactly the way I had understood it because it is exactly the way that it USED to work. It was misleading because it did not offer the information on how the reflashing works now and that there are now limitations.
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Scum

If you read MY original post, you'll see that I was unclear about how the real-time flashes worked now. Like the original poster, I started with a v1 and then upgraded to v2 accessport and have not changed a map in years (I have had no need). It seems that the process has changed, probably with the advent of race tune, and it seems that there are a lot of new variables. I have not been able to find much information about how the "entire real-time system works" which is why I posted here.
Black94Snake was kind enough to point out that only certain parameters are modifiable which makes sense now.
I have no need to troubleshoot my situation. I found a solution and now understand why the real-time map did not work. I'm simply pointing out that Bill's "sweeping claim" that I can just flash a real-time map for the dragstrip, is exactly the way I had understood it because it is exactly the way that it USED to work. It was misleading because it did not offer the information on how the reflashing works now and that there are now limitations.
Hi there. I know this is an old thread, but check out the 2nd post in this thread. I explained how real-time works in some detail. As described, there are no differences in how real-time works between v1 and v2 AP. Now as far as using a custom dyno tune as real-time, you would have to contact your tuner to make sure that would work given the entirety of the tune and the map you have reflashed. They may have modified tables in the race gas tune that are outside the 10 or so most important tables that govern boost/timing/fuel for real-time but may still impact boost/timing/fuel. Certainly you can design a tune that would work for race gas as a real-time flash, but they may not have considered that at the time, so verifying would be a good idea.

Bill
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:25 PM   #12
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If you read MY original post, you'll see that I was unclear about how the real-time flashes worked now.
Your original post is post #6 in the thread, from today. You don't like to any other thread in any of your posts. In no posts do you provide any details by which one can draw a conclusion about your real-time mapping experience v. Cobb's claims. You just say the claim is misleading because you couldn't get it working; user error/misunderstanding is still on the table. AND you're being super-defensive about the whole thing. Don't take things personally, the people responding here are trying to figure out what is going on.

Plus, there are no differences between real-time and reflash maps as you claim, Cobb just expanded the functionality so that you do not have to limit a specific map to either "reflash-only" or "real-time-only." You can use any map. V1 still limited you to the 10 top tables. Your problem most likely lies elsewhere.
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Old 04-16-2012, 10:55 PM   #13
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Now as far as using a custom dyno tune as real-time, you would have to contact your tuner to make sure that would work given the entirety of the tune and the map you have reflashed. They may have modified tables in the race gas tune that are outside the 10 or so most important tables that govern boost/timing/fuel for real-time but may still impact boost/timing/fuel. Certainly you can design a tune that would work for race gas as a real-time flash, but they may not have considered that at the time, so verifying would be a good idea.

Bill
Thank you Bill, that is the information I was looking for.
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