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Old 10-13-2011, 10:49 PM   #1
Dj Xtz
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Sonic Yellow w/DGM 2-tone

Default Tuning Stage 3 w/ Denso 560cc Injectors

I currently have an 03 WRX with all supporting mods for a Stage 3 setup according to Cobb the only difference is I am using the 560cc Denso dark blue injectors from an 06 WRX. I am currently using the OTS Stage 3 map for the Cobb Spec 565cc injectors on 91ACN fuel. Seeing as there is only 5cc difference between the injectors, I figured it would be ok. After running some datalogs and having Bill (Cobb's in house Subie ECU Guru) look at them he noticed the car is pulling too much fuel because my A/F Trim Learned values are starting at -10 rather than 0. Did a boost leak test, no leaks. I looked at some logs I ran when I had the stock 420cc injectors running stage 1 and noticed the A/F Trim Learned values were fine so this tends to lead me to there being something wrong in the map. There are some parameters that I noticed in the map which I would like to change to see if it would correct this issue but I would like to get some advice first.

1. Injector Scale on OTS map = 5120 for Cobb Spec 565cc injectors, calculated Injector Scale for Denso 560cc injectors = 4831. Should I change my Scaling to the calculated value? If so, why are the Injector Scaling values for the OEM STI Pinks and Cobb Spec Injectors higher than the calculated values when using the Injector Scaling Formula on the Stage 3 OTS maps? Are those the scale values that were found optimum while testing?

2. Should I change my Injector Latency values to match those found on your Tuning Guide Worksheet or leave as is and adjust as needed since the values shown on the worksheet are on the 06 WRX 2.5L?

Some experienced advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:06 AM   #2
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by Dj Xtz View Post
I currently have an 03 WRX with all supporting mods for a Stage 3 setup according to Cobb the only difference is I am using the 560cc Denso dark blue injectors from an 06 WRX. I am currently using the OTS Stage 3 map for the Cobb Spec 565cc injectors on 91ACN fuel. Seeing as there is only 5cc difference between the injectors, I figured it would be ok. After running some datalogs and having Bill (Cobb's in house Subie ECU Guru) look at them he noticed the car is pulling too much fuel because my A/F Trim Learned values are starting at -10 rather than 0. Did a boost leak test, no leaks. I looked at some logs I ran when I had the stock 420cc injectors running stage 1 and noticed the A/F Trim Learned values were fine so this tends to lead me to there being something wrong in the map. There are some parameters that I noticed in the map which I would like to change to see if it would correct this issue but I would like to get some advice first.

1. Injector Scale on OTS map = 5120 for Cobb Spec 565cc injectors, calculated Injector Scale for Denso 560cc injectors = 4831. Should I change my Scaling to the calculated value? If so, why are the Injector Scaling values for the OEM STI Pinks and Cobb Spec Injectors higher than the calculated values when using the Injector Scaling Formula on the Stage 3 OTS maps? Are those the scale values that were found optimum while testing?

2. Should I change my Injector Latency values to match those found on your Tuning Guide Worksheet or leave as is and adjust as needed since the values shown on the worksheet are on the 06 WRX 2.5L?

Some experienced advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
Do you have a wideband o2 sensor?

Bill
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:48 AM   #3
Dj Xtz
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Sonic Yellow w/DGM 2-tone

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It's on order but beyond that... Can I have the car at idle at proper operating temps and pull up the ATR dashboard as stated in the tuning guide and look at the A/F Trim Learning realtime from there and adjust?
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:17 AM   #4
Cobb Tuning
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It's on order but beyond that... Can I have the car at idle at proper operating temps and pull up the ATR dashboard as stated in the tuning guide and look at the A/F Trim Learning realtime from there and adjust?
Yeah, you can tweak it in closed loop (based on A/F Learning 1 and A/F Correction 1), but you'll need a wbo2 to verify open loop fueling.

Bill
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:16 AM   #5
Dj Xtz
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Sonic Yellow w/DGM 2-tone

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Thanks Bill! You are the man! My question still remains though.... Why are the injector scale values for the OTS stage 3 maps on the STI pinks and DW Cobb Spec Injectors higher than what the calculated values would be? Also, will you be at Subiefest this year? I see they are holding some tuning seminars.... Would be nice to see you there .

Miguel
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:22 AM   #6
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by Dj Xtz View Post
Thanks Bill! You are the man! My question still remains though.... Why are the injector scale values for the OTS stage 3 maps on the STI pinks and DW Cobb Spec Injectors higher than what the calculated values would be? Also, will you be at Subiefest this year? I see they are holding some tuning seminars.... Would be nice to see you there .

Miguel
That is just a way to get to a starting point. The advertised flow rating (or latency) from the inj. manufacturer is not always spot-on or consistent between manufacturers or even different injectors. It is just like a HP rating on a car - some are conservative, some overly optimistic - it all depends on the testing equipment, conditions, methodology, etc. and sometimes even the marketing.

Keep in mind that latency errors will impact injector pulse width (IPW) more at idle/cruise than at higher load (because latency will make up a greater percentage of IPW at low load). Errors in the injector scaler will impact fueling the same across all loads.

I am the hermit crab at Cobb - I don't get out much.

Bill
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:37 PM   #7
Dj Xtz
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Thanks Bill. I have loaded up the datalog from my new injector scale at 4831 which is lower than the 5120 I had before. This is during idle and closed loop rev up to about 7000 rpm. The A/F Trim Learn looks a lot better than before but I can't get it to 0 at idle. I can't adjust the latency table because it is read only. Changing the inj. scale in ATR while connected to the ECU realtime was a great help because I could see how the adjustments I made in the map effected the A/F Learn and Correction. I tried to lower the injector scale some more but the A/F Trim Learn didn't change and my A/F Correction started to go positive. Is there something else I should look at or do you think this is ok?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FaS3c&hl=en_US
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:53 PM   #8
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by Dj Xtz View Post
Thanks Bill. I have loaded up the datalog from my new injector scale at 4831 which is lower than the 5120 I had before. This is during idle and closed loop rev up to about 7000 rpm. The A/F Trim Learn looks a lot better than before but I can't get it to 0 at idle. I can't adjust the latency table because it is read only. Changing the inj. scale in ATR while connected to the ECU realtime was a great help because I could see how the adjustments I made in the map effected the A/F Learn and Correction. I tried to lower the injector scale some more but the A/F Trim Learn didn't change and my A/F Correction started to go positive. Is there something else I should look at or do you think this is ok?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FaS3c&hl=en_US
A/F learning 1 isn't going to necessarily change the instant that you are messing with the injector scaler. You just need to look at the current value along with A/F Correction 1. You goal is to get as close to zero as possible (adding the two values) but you will never get to a point where either is always zero. A/F Correction 1 will be the most erratic as it is the immediate correction to fueling. As you play with the injector scaler in either direction you will start to see where it is definitely leaner (generally pretty much always adding fuel) and where it is definitely richer (generally pretty much pulling fuel), so you want to find that sweet spot where it is one or the other and then tweak it so that A/F Correction 1 + A/F Learning 1 is as a low as possible.

You can still tune latency for your car, just that it isn't a real-time tunable parameter so you'll have to reflash the change.

Bill
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:15 PM   #9
Dj Xtz
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Ok Bill. Thanks again for the advice. Glad you like what you do that much . Maybe you will get out sometime soon . I am going to change the latency settings at 14V To a lower value and see how that helps. Will datalog and report back.
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:42 PM   #10
Dj Xtz
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Sonic Yellow w/DGM 2-tone

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Ok, just ran the Stage 3 map with changes made to the Injector Scaling. Didn't change the Latency values because I think the SUM of the 2 values are close enough at idle. I did notice a positive spike of +23 for A/F Correction 1, should I be concerned? No Knock present, DAM at 16.... I am also noticing my boost target vs actual boost numbers are way off from each other.... I take it that would be next thing that I work on??? At least it is according to the guide . Here is the datalog for the run I just did with a 3rd gear pull.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...RvY1E&hl=en_US

Last edited by Dj Xtz; 10-14-2011 at 05:44 PM. Reason: Added link to Datalog
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Old 10-15-2011, 08:20 AM   #11
Cobb Tuning
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Originally Posted by Dj Xtz View Post
Ok, just ran the Stage 3 map with changes made to the Injector Scaling. Didn't change the Latency values because I think the SUM of the 2 values are close enough at idle. I did notice a positive spike of +23 for A/F Correction 1, should I be concerned? No Knock present, DAM at 16.... I am also noticing my boost target vs actual boost numbers are way off from each other.... I take it that would be next thing that I work on??? At least it is according to the guide . Here is the datalog for the run I just did with a 3rd gear pull.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...RvY1E&hl=en_US
The occasional extreme correction in A/F Correction 1 is normal, even on stock cars. It is just what it looks like overall that you need to be concerned about.

You are not underboosting - you are actually overboosting by over 2 psi at about 4000 RPM. The rest of the log after that boost spike actually looks good.

Bill
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:50 PM   #12
Dj Xtz
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Sonic Yellow w/DGM 2-tone

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Thanks for all the help and advice Bill. I will do some more fine tuning when my WBo2 sensor shows up. Also ordered a Grimmspeed 3-port EBCS to better control the boost over the power band. Already have a map setup to cover the changes to the boost tables that would be affected by lowering the values by a factor of .7.... Will fine tune from there if I am not hitting boost targets
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