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Old 08-06-2002, 02:29 AM   #1
mkotecha
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Smile WRX at the BMW racing school and

Just wanted people to know,
I took my wrx to the local bmw racing school, and destroyed some 95-97 m3's around the track. Basically, it was a "learn to respect the rex" weekend. mods include:
vishnu stage 0
Scooby sport turbo back
GFB BOV
whiteline springs
Whiteline front and rear sway bars
Koni adjustable front and rear struts
Sti short shifter
ok so I've spent some $$$$$ but come on, it still isn't a supposed $40,000 "ultimate driving machine."
btw, purchased the Im-autosport basick OBD-II scan tool and loved it....if anyone has been thinking about getting one feel free to talk to me
mk
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Old 08-06-2002, 05:38 AM   #2
lil'redwagon
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i was actually talking to a guy who is a BMW test driver who owns an automatic WRX, and he said that the WRX can go through the canyons faster than a current generation (e46) M3!!! i wouldn't believe it, but this guy is a test driver for BMW. so after talking to him, i believe you... but i'd still rather have a new M3.
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Old 08-06-2002, 08:29 AM   #3
M3sum
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Quote:
Originally posted by lil'redwagon
i was actually talking to a guy who is a BMW test driver who owns an automatic WRX, and he said that the WRX can go through the canyons faster than a current generation (e46) M3!!! i wouldn't believe it, but this guy is a test driver for BMW. so after talking to him, i believe you... but i'd still rather have a new M3.
Ok, I call BS
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Old 08-06-2002, 11:04 AM   #4
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Believe it! I would routinley match or better E46 M3's at the road course with my stock setup, and now it isn't even close. I have moved up the food chain to Z06's and modded Porsches.

Basically a TurboXs Stage 4 w/ M2 DMS 40 suspension.

peace
Ian
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Old 08-06-2002, 11:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by brogliei
Believe it! I would routinley match or better E46 M3's at the road course with my stock setup, and now it isn't even close. I have moved up the food chain to Z06's and modded Porsches.

Basically a TurboXs Stage 4 w/ M2 DMS 40 suspension.

peace
Ian
Never mind that Ian happens to be a very good driver...



-Nathan
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Old 08-06-2002, 12:58 PM   #6
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I have run with M3's too (Sears Point), I had Vishnu 0, springs and an adjustable rear sway bar and P7000's. I was much quicker in the turns but not as fast on the straight aways. Some of the M3 drivers let me pass in the straight aways and some would just floor it and I'm not as fast, but it was LOTS of fun
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Old 08-06-2002, 02:11 PM   #7
M3sum
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Driver aside, I find it hard to believe that in stock form, the wrx is faster than the M3 seeing as how most magazine reviews complain about the WRX's handling in stock form. I forgot their exact words but i'm sure you guys have read it.
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Old 08-06-2002, 02:38 PM   #8
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Before I got my WRX, I was trying to decide between that and a used 96-97ish BMW M3. I'm no expert, but on paper, they seem to be pretty comparable. The M3 (4 dr) is just slightly heavier (3175 lbs) and has some more power -- 240 hp and 236 ft lbs of torque. I'm not so sure about the new M3 with the rediculous 333 or something HP, but the WRX is right up there with the older 4 dr M3.
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Old 08-06-2002, 03:54 PM   #9
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M3sum - Do you believe everything magazines say? Trust me, on a technical course the stock WRX is just as fast as the E46 M3s (especially the early M3s), however you go to a track like road atlanta and the M3 will dominate a stock WRX. On a longer track with huge straights the M3 will win, but as soon as you add some power and handling to the WRX (~6-7K extra) and it is all over. Now you have a 30-31K car kicking the pants of a 46-50K BMW (given your Dinan intake and exhaust).

Thanks for the compliment Nathan. However, I still don't consider myself a very good driver yet, just because their are a ton of techniques (that more experienced drivers use) I don't use that would drop my times by a quite few seconds. One day I will take the time to learn the techniques. And when I do, I should eat Zo6s for lunch.

An E46 M3 weighs 3415lbs, definatly not a light weight.

peace
Ian
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Old 08-06-2002, 07:02 PM   #10
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Track driving has a ton to do with the driver. Some are just alot more cautious than others. I went to a track day at gingerman raceway and passed an E36? M3 and would catch up to a M Coupe in the corners, but he'd lose me in the straights. I am using DMS50s and a variety of other suspension items, so I'd like to think my car handles pretty well when compared to an M3 or M Coupe. But I think I pushed much harder in the corners compared to those guys, for whatever reason. With a TXS Stage 4 I would have been blowing them away without much trouble. But by that point I have a 40k+ WRX... It'd be a real tossup if I could have gotten an E46 M3 for $40k. Of course I can go out the next day and rallyx the WRX competitively as well.

Eating a Z06 for lunch is another thing entirely. With a good driver I think the Z06 would beat even a heavily modified WRX. Even with an upgraded suspension and 350hp my money is still on the Z06.
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Old 08-06-2002, 08:30 PM   #11
M3sum
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Quote:
Originally posted by brogliei
M3sum - Do you believe everything magazines say? Trust me, on a technical course the stock WRX is just as fast as the E46 M3s (especially the early M3s), however you go to a track like road atlanta and the M3 will dominate a stock WRX. On a longer track with huge straights the M3 will win, but as soon as you add some power and handling to the WRX (~6-7K extra) and it is all over. Now you have a 30-31K car kicking the pants of a 46-50K BMW (given your Dinan intake and exhaust).

Thanks for the compliment Nathan. However, I still don't consider myself a very good driver yet, just because their are a ton of techniques (that more experienced drivers use) I don't use that would drop my times by a quite few seconds. One day I will take the time to learn the techniques. And when I do, I should eat Zo6s for lunch.

An E46 M3 weighs 3415lbs, definatly not a light weight.

peace
Ian
What DWX said, Track driving has a lot to do with the driver.
I am not comparing drivers, all what you are saying doesn't mean anything because a lot of it is driver. Take the same driver and drive both cars, then its a comparison. Ok so we are supposed to disbelieve the magazines.....I mean certainly we take it with a grain of salt, but specs don't lie, and just judging by the tires, its not even close. But think what you will, if you strongly believes a STOCK wrx can beat an e46 M3, by all means believe that. I believe in facts. So i guess we should believe the honda civic can beat the wrx too......cause the magazines must lie when they are listing its specs, cause im betting on the civic forum they are talking about beating some wrx.....
I mean really people, I own a wrx too, but I know the limitations of the car. I blew by a ferrari the other day.....oh yeah it was sitting in parking lot

And DWX, I agree about the z06, those things eat ferraris and porsche turbos on the track. And again, with equal drivers......
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Old 08-07-2002, 02:16 AM   #12
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Well, look at it this way. My home course is a 1.65 mile course with very short straights (Zo6s top out around 100 before braking). With the tight course I play on, the E46 and WRX are fairly equal as far as the machines go (I am assuming you had gotten rid of the RE92s of course). Yes, I totally agree that the major factor is drivers skill no matter what the car, however I feel the WRX does a better job through the hairpins and other tight corners than the E46. I think this has to do with the WRXs ability to force its way through the corner using its AWD advantage and being a few hundred pounds lighter. Granted the driver of the E46 I am refering to is not a pro, but we are definately at a similar skill level.

Now, put me in a rear wheel drive car and I would have to learn some new techniques for the track, because I have never driven anything but the WRX at the track. I do talk to other drivers and when I talk about Zo6s I am refering to cars driven by extremely experienced drivers (instructors, racers, etc.) that love to push the limits. If you spent 40K on a WRX it would be extremely fast and agile. I have spent <30K (more if you count 5 sets of tires) on modifications and the car is really fast on the track (my home course), but I still don't drive it to its potential.

All in all I guess this is opinion vs opinion and their is no real way to compare objectively. That is why I feel magazines will bend or distort the truth more often than not to better sales. Granted you can't deny the "facts", but their are variables to everything including the so called "facts" that magazines print.

peace
Ian
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Old 08-07-2002, 02:35 AM   #13
M3sum
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Agreed, and I have no doubt the WRX will be a kicka$$ car with a few mods.

And about the magazines, sure theres some margin of error as always, but all magazines do praise the wrx, hell its like car of the year or something, but they do agree that in stock form, FHI has cut some corners to save costs to the US spec WRX, and they also promote understeer for safety. Hmm throw in a front LSD like the JDM spec and we're in business.
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Old 08-07-2002, 06:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by M3sum
Agreed, and I have no doubt the WRX will be a kicka$$ car with a few mods.

And about the magazines, sure theres some margin of error as always, but all magazines do praise the wrx, hell its like car of the year or something, but they do agree that in stock form, FHI has cut some corners to save costs to the US spec WRX, and they also promote understeer for safety. Hmm throw in a front LSD like the JDM spec and we're in business.
I doubt it was to cut costs...they'd just pass the costs on to you. The reason they water it down is because they know how broad the U.S. market is...suspensions are the softest in the world here in the U.S. so no one ever complains about a harsh ride. The reason for no front LSD is so that 90-pounders can still drive the car and take a corner without ending up in opposing traffic.

So take that stock WRX (be glad you can buy it in this country) and tune it to your liking.



-Milan
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Old 08-07-2002, 06:45 AM   #15
M3sum
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Well, when I say cut costs, it was in reference to the whole car so they can keep it at a price level. So they have to trim it down relatively to the JDM spec. Yes and I agree with the whole detuned suspension part and I agree, which is precisely why I don't think it can beat an M3 in stock form.

Yes I am very happy with the car, never complained. I was only taking issue with the fact that its supposed to be an M3 beater in stock form......which I strongly disagree with.
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Old 08-07-2002, 06:50 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by M3sum
Well, when I say cut costs, it was in reference to the whole car so they can keep it at a price level. So they have to trim it down relatively to the JDM spec. Yes and I agree with the whole detuned suspension part and I agree, which is precisely why I don't think it can beat an M3 in stock form.

Yes I am very happy with the car, never complained. I was only taking issue with the fact that its supposed to be an M3 beater in stock form......which I strongly disagree with.
True...but at that price-point I don't think anything even comes close.

I still think that with decent driving skills the WRX driver can take the M3 in the twisties. Unless you have a real expert at the wheel in the M3.

Word.

-Milan
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Old 08-07-2002, 06:55 AM   #17
M3sum
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Yup I agree, insane value for the dollar.

Ok when you say that, are you comparing drivers or cars? I think a good driver in a civic can beat a crappy driver in a M3 in the twisties.

I am emphasizing comparing car vs car, and there's no way that can happen, especially with RE92s and the understeer and bodyroll the stock wrx has. I mean I would love to be wrong and believe my wrx can beat an M3, but the facts don't seem to be in favor of that.
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Old 08-07-2002, 08:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by M3sum
Yup I agree, insane value for the dollar.

Ok when you say that, are you comparing drivers or cars? I think a good driver in a civic can beat a crappy driver in a M3 in the twisties.

I am emphasizing comparing car vs car, and there's no way that can happen, especially with RE92s and the understeer and bodyroll the stock wrx has. I mean I would love to be wrong and believe my wrx can beat an M3, but the facts don't seem to be in favor of that.
I don't think it's the tires or bodyroll that would be a disadvantage...it would be the lack of off-boost power due to the smaller displacement...so you'd probably be right.

At lease you wouldn't get TOTALLY spanked, though.

Word.

-Milan
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Old 08-08-2002, 04:41 PM   #19
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nice....a road racing bragging thread! something that actually takes skill.

cars I have 0wn3d on track:

Integra Type R (lost count - and a few with very experienced drivers)
E36 M3 - at least 2
Supercharged E36 M3 with an advanced driver. (that one felt good)
C4 corvette - at least 3
C5 corvette - once
993 Porsche 911 at least 2
mustang cobra - 1

various mustangs, camaros, and other cars not worth bragging about

oh this is with a stock boost and turbo WRX on street tires. Most of the "kills" were made before my coilovers with only swaybars.

The WRX is an amazing track car.
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Old 08-09-2002, 07:48 AM   #20
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m3sum: sorry for not responding sooner. i don't usually check this forum. but the comparison was car to car with the same driver. now, the wrx WAS completely stock, and automatic - BUT HE WAS ON FALKEN AZENIS TIRES. he is a test driver for bmw, so im not sure if it was a showroom stock e46 M3, or if they were testing some different suspension setting that must not have been working right... i didn't ask. he also didn't say which canyons he can negotiate faster with the wrx (i dunno if they were particularly tight, or if the drive was mostly longer sweepers and straights). but most of the canyons here in socal are pretty tight. he didn't mention anything about a track.

i should also add that i am a BMW fan. i have been one for the past 20 years ever since my dad bought his '80 320i, on to his '86 524td, on to my '88 535is, and onto my sister's '00 323i sportwagon. i've always dreamed of owning a *new* M3 ,or euro M6 of course. it didn't matter what year, i've lusted after all generations and i continue to lust after them. my point is that i love bmw's, the M3 in particular, so i'm not just making up stories, nor am i just trying to bag on the car. i'm relaying what a BMW test driver told me. if he was lying than he was lying, but i don't see a reason for that.
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Old 08-09-2002, 11:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by brogliei
Believe it! I would routinley match or better E46 M3's at the road course with my stock setup, and now it isn't even close. I have moved up the food chain to Z06's and modded Porsches.

Basically a TurboXs Stage 4 w/ M2 DMS 40 suspension.

peace
Ian
Well as you guys can see he is not stock... everybody says he is a good driver (very very important). I think I will take his word for it he is Z06 territory. I am not sure what tires and wheels. And with the addition of a FMIC or the new TMIC by TXS, he should be pushing 300hp at the wheels....

(I had a set of JIC's coilovers and the first time I drove the car around an exit ... my jaw dropped... the car turned 7 miles faster than my ususal speed without any fuss and me even trying. With a good driver, sways, coilovers, nice performance tires the ballgame is on..)

I have also testdriven the new M3 and it is a phaenomenal car. Very fast and also very pleasant and cushy if so you desire. I wish I could have one but unfortunatelly it is off my limits

Cheers

Nick
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Old 08-09-2002, 12:22 PM   #22
brogliei
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Actually I am on Rota Subzeros with Kumho V700s and the Zo6s which I am refering are on hoosiers. If the vettes were on streets it would be all over. I Ran about 3-4 seconds off their pace with my Azenis vs their hoosiers and now I am right on their tails.

peace
Ian
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Old 08-10-2002, 10:02 AM   #23
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Default my 2 cents....

i have a compltely stock auto '02 WRX sedan and my brother has a lightly modded '97 M3. only thing i had changed was my AVO BOV.

we've raced a bunch of times. first 2X, he killed me by several car lengths. this was because i didn't know how to launch an auto. a couple of days later, we raced again. this time i used a brake torque launch. i beat him 2X. he had horrible reaction times on both passes. i noticed i had a quicker 0-60 than he did. but even when i was 2 car lengths ahead from the get go, he still manages to catch up to me down the stretch and keep in neck-in-neck.

IMHO, i think the M3's are faster stock to stock. but he does have shark injection software, CAI, SO-3 pole position race tires, taken out all the crud in his car inclu. spare and back seats; while i had a 40lb. boom box in the back, a full tank of gas.

here's a pic of my WRX after my first to races against the M3.
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File Type: jpg rex blkeye3.jpg (19.8 KB, 1157 views)
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Old 08-11-2002, 01:05 AM   #24
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Let me help break it down to you guys a little further here since I am the resident M3 owner....(possibly looking to purchase a wrx tho

First of all when you talk about 95-97 M3's lets be a little more realistic when looking at the price, these cars are not new anymore and can be had from anywhere of the $18k-$35k neighborhood. Newer M3's of course are more expensive in the $50k range and it is a well recognized fact among BMW owners that the new E46 version M3's do not handle as well as the predecssor versions, although they are quite a bit faster down straight-aways.

Also, please remember when doing scientific comparisons, variables must be the same on both test subjects (i.e., you buy aftermarket suspension components, race an M3 with aftermarket suspension components). Here are the specs I can remember off the top of my head for M3's and WRX's

E46 M3:
1/4 = 13.2
0-60 = 4.7
dont know lateral g acceleration

E36 M3:
1/4 = 15.3
0-60 = 6.7
lateral acceleration = .92g's

WRX
1/4 = 14.1
0-60 = 5.4
lateral acceleration = .76g's

1/4 mile and 0-60 times were gotten off of www.car-stats.com and lateral acceleration is remembered from reviews by either car and driver or motor trend (one of those 2 mags).

Anyhow, the point here is that the wrx is certainly capable of hanging with a M3 through straighter territory. But in stock form the M3's do have excellent weight distribution, and not only that but give good feedback to the driver, making them fantastic handling cars that are hard to beat through corners stock to stock.

Anyhow, my $.02
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Old 08-12-2002, 02:12 AM   #25
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I think an E36 is quite a bit quicker than 15.3, more like low 14s. And I can see a WRX taking out an E36, but not really an E46. Those cars are pretty nuts.
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