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Old 10-20-2011, 07:06 PM   #1
jmikeumo
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Default Log Check Please 2004 WRX 93 Octane on Stage 1 91 Tune

Bill,

Can you take a look at this datalog, and let me know what you see? I see knock learning at -0.35 and 0.35 at various points of WOT (yellow highlighted so you can see them quicker). Also curious what you think about other key variables. A/F, etc.

Vehicle is completely stock except has K&N panel filter.

Do I look safe?

Thanks,
Jason

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0
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Last edited by jmikeumo; 10-21-2011 at 07:59 PM. Reason: Added info.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:58 AM   #2
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Hi Jason,

You'll need to set the google docs permissions to public for that log in order for anyone to view it.

Bill
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:35 PM   #3
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Just made it public. Try this link.

Thanks!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...BHLXc&hl=en_US
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Old 10-21-2011, 05:10 PM   #4
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Dropped the first file and uploaded these two from runs today (by the way, I still have version 3.0 maps on the car). WOT is yellow rows, and boost >14.5 is shown in green. Why didnt I appear to reach peak boost in 3rd gear, but did in 5th gear easily?

Are my knock indicators anything to be concerned about? What about A/F Ratio?

I noticed that the 3.1 Stage 1 maps specify specifically the stock air filter. Does this mean a simple K&N drop in panel filter in the stock air box is a problem for this map? If so, should I even bother switching to the 3.1 map? I assume you guys believe it is an advantage over the 3.0 map? Is there a link describing the differences?

Thanks Bill,
Jason

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hCeGc&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...RtVkE&hl=en_US

Last edited by jmikeumo; 10-21-2011 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Added another question
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:22 AM   #5
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Dropped the first file and uploaded these two from runs today (by the way, I still have version 3.0 maps on the car). WOT is yellow rows, and boost >14.5 is shown in green. Why didnt I appear to reach peak boost in 3rd gear, but did in 5th gear easily?

Are my knock indicators anything to be concerned about? What about A/F Ratio?

I noticed that the 3.1 Stage 1 maps specify specifically the stock air filter. Does this mean a simple K&N drop in panel filter in the stock air box is a problem for this map? If so, should I even bother switching to the 3.1 map? I assume you guys believe it is an advantage over the 3.0 map? Is there a link describing the differences?

Thanks Bill,
Jason

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hCeGc&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...RtVkE&hl=en_US
Jason,

Your DAM has dropped to 15, indicating some knock. I would go with the v310 maps - they tend to be more consistent. There is no difference in the requirements for the stock panel filter between the v300 and v310 maps. But, you may be able to get away with an aftermarket panel filter, but definitely not an aftermarket intake (except for Cobb SF) for v300 or v310 maps.

When logging, use the default logging list (reset the list via "Reset Log List" AP function). Also, only log your WOT run - it is difficult to wade through many lines of logs in google docs (too slow). You want to do a 3rd gear WOT run from around 2000 RPM to near redline (if you can do so safely). Check out our logging video:

Bill
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Old 10-22-2011, 10:29 AM   #6
jmikeumo
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Thanks Bill. I just reflashed to Stage 1 91 Octane (although I'm running 93 octane fuel from Mobil). I will go get a few runs in now, and repost a bit less data for you with some WOT runs to see where I'm at.

Thanks, Jason
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Old 10-22-2011, 11:53 AM   #7
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Bill,

Take a look here. Went out for a drive in my 2004 WRX Wagon for a while with the new Stage 1 v3.1 91 Octane NWG flash running 93 Octane gas with my K&N panel filter as the only non-stock component. It's about 53deg outside, and I live fairly close to sea level.

This post is the WOT runs in 3rd gear. I did a few. Each one starts new with the yellow line. It looks much better to me. Does it look safe to you? Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Jason

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5IUWc&hl=en_US
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:47 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Bill,

Take a look here. Went out for a drive in my 2004 WRX Wagon for a while with the new Stage 1 v3.1 91 Octane NWG flash running 93 Octane gas with my K&N panel filter as the only non-stock component. It's about 53deg outside, and I live fairly close to sea level.

This post is the WOT runs in 3rd gear. I did a few. Each one starts new with the yellow line. It looks much better to me. Does it look safe to you? Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Jason

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...5IUWc&hl=en_US
Jason,

The log looks good. When you reflash a map, the dynamic advance multiplier (DAM) will reset to 12 and then learn its way up to 16 (assuming no knock issues when it is active). So, you want to wait until it hits 16 before doing your run (so that you are running full timing). It actually advanced while you were doing your WOT run. So, now that it is 16, I would go ahead and do another run.

Bill
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Old 10-23-2011, 12:42 PM   #9
jmikeumo
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Thanks Bill. In the file there is more than one run. The first is when it advanced, and then the yellow lines separate my other runs after it had advanced to 16. I will still log a couple more runs and post now that I've driven on it some.

Appreciate your time,
Jason
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:20 PM   #10
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Thanks Bill. In the file there is more than one run. The first is when it advanced, and then the yellow lines separate my other runs after it had advanced to 16. I will still log a couple more runs and post now that I've driven on it some.

Appreciate your time,
Jason
Ok, I see. You have some fine knock learning in the later runs, but it has started to learn back to zero. It may be a fluke - I would check a few more runs and see if it goes in a negative direction again (from what it is now).

Bill
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:53 PM   #11
jmikeumo
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Default Take another look Bill

Bill,

Some more runs of various length and various gears (again separated by the yellow line (each yellow line starts a new WOT run). Still some fine knock correction. I do have a slight hestitation that is noticeable on occasion during WOT runs. I'm not sure what it is, but I can feel it. Does it line up with the timing adj. and should I then expect it (I could feel this same hesitation before I purchased the Accessport)?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...pEQWc&hl=en_US

Thanks Bill,
Jason

Last edited by jmikeumo; 10-24-2011 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Added information
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Old 10-25-2011, 10:32 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Bill,

Some more runs of various length and various gears (again separated by the yellow line (each yellow line starts a new WOT run). Still some fine knock correction. I do have a slight hestitation that is noticeable on occasion during WOT runs. I'm not sure what it is, but I can feel it. Does it line up with the timing adj. and should I then expect it (I could feel this same hesitation before I purchased the Accessport)?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...pEQWc&hl=en_US

Thanks Bill,
Jason
You are pretty much seeing the same correction applied over and over, so it doesn't mean you are knock every time you see the correction (it is based on a past event).

That said, your previous log did show some borderline extreme long-term fuel trims (A/F Learning 1) in a positive direction (i.e. adding fuel). Same in this log, but not as bad. You may have a post-MAF intake leak. I would get a pressure test or smoke test of the intake tract done. It could also be due to the K&N panel filter or the MAF sensor is a little contaminated due to over-oiling the K&N filter.

Bill
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:36 PM   #13
jmikeumo
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Thanks, I will look into this. K&N is brand new. I've used them a lot before, and am familiar with over-oiling potential. I will consider replacing back to stock filter to start.

I've read that I should only be concerned about A/F learning if I consistently see values more than +/- 8%. What is your guideline?

Thanks Bill,
Jason
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:01 AM   #14
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Thanks, I will look into this. K&N is brand new. I've used them a lot before, and am familiar with over-oiling potential. I will consider replacing back to stock filter to start.

I've read that I should only be concerned about A/F learning if I consistently see values more than +/- 8%. What is your guideline?

Thanks Bill,
Jason
Outside +/- 8% you most likely have a problem, but outside of +/- 5%, you are borderline and may or may not have a problem. One of your older logs showed 7% and pretty much every log is showing positive a/f learning values. There are actually 4 a/f learning values that are determined and applied across specific airflow ranges. So, when you are trending positive all the time in all 4 ranges, it means you have a universal lean condition (barring issues with front o2 sensor). Also, when you are reflashing maps, it clears the learning so you might not be getting to a point where your have "full" a/f learning unless you get a good amount of cruise-type driving in there before reflashing a map, resetting the ECU, or disconnecting the battery.

Now, it may be nothing because your long-term fuel trims are not extreme, but given the age of these cars, we often see issues with the MAF sensor.
They tend to read lower than actual as the sensor ages. Also, oiled filters can potentially contaminate the sensor, causing it to read lower. Now, your airflow values are in a reasonable range for your car, so you do not have a major issue if the MAF sensor is the culprit, but it could be causing you to run a little lean. Another possibility is a post-MAF intake leak. Again, you are borderline on your trims, so this is just a possibility, not a certainty. I would give it a good amount of cruise-type driving (like a week) and then report back your A/F Learning values. You can view each A/F Learning value by looking at the "A/F Learning 1" A, B, C, D values.

Bill
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:04 PM   #15
jmikeumo
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Thanks Bill. The front O2 sensor was replaced less than 3000 miles ago. The K&N is new as I said, and only has the original factory oiling job on it. I assume you object to K&Ns statement that oil from their filters does not cause malfunctions of the MAF sensor? I realize its from K&N, but they seem to provide test evidence of this case.

I'll take a look in a week or so.

Thanks,
Jason
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Thanks Bill. The front O2 sensor was replaced less than 3000 miles ago. The K&N is new as I said, and only has the original factory oiling job on it. I assume you object to K&Ns statement that oil from their filters does not cause malfunctions of the MAF sensor? I realize its from K&N, but they seem to provide test evidence of this case.

I'll take a look in a week or so.

Thanks,
Jason
I don't have any evidence to refute that and I'm not saying that a properly oiled filter is going to cause problems, just possibly an over-oiled filter might (over-oiled when the owner services it incorrectly). There are many different opinions on this, though, so don't take my opinion as gospel. I could certainly be wrong.

But, the idea of the "tired" MAF sensor on these older cars is something that is a definite possiblity. When they get this way, they will underreport airflow and cause you to run lean. It doesn't appear to be something that all of a sudden occurs, but something that gets gradually worse over time. I'm not saying that is your case here. We would want to see what your long-term fuel trims look like over a good period of closed loop driving.

I would say if you suspect fueling issues with these older cars and you appear to be running lean across the board, then I would go ahead and swap in a new MAF sensor.

Bill
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Old 11-02-2011, 05:04 PM   #17
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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...XY1UkJ0amRXZGc

Bill,

Take a look at this. A couple different 100% pulls each beginning with a new green line. No 2-6k pulls in third gear because i didn't have safe area today, but check it out anyway. A/F learning seems to be more under control. I've noticed at cold start in AM it seems to run a bit higher positive, but when driving, not as bad. How about knock values? I will try to get a post with a 2-6k WOT run in 3rd soon.

Thanks,
Jason
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Old 11-03-2011, 10:40 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...XY1UkJ0amRXZGc

Bill,

Take a look at this. A couple different 100% pulls each beginning with a new green line. No 2-6k pulls in third gear because i didn't have safe area today, but check it out anyway. A/F learning seems to be more under control. I've noticed at cold start in AM it seems to run a bit higher positive, but when driving, not as bad. How about knock values? I will try to get a post with a 2-6k WOT run in 3rd soon.

Thanks,
Jason
Your general trend is still positive and you are hitting extremes at time (near 9%). Frankly, I would go ahead and swap out the MAF sensor. If you've got a lot of miles on the car (80k+), you may want to also consider swapping in a new front o2 (which also degrades over time). It sounds kind of counter-intuitive to replace parts that appear to be functional, but these tend to degrade slowly over time so you won't know there's a problem until it is really bad. Your logs show a possibility of there being a problem, so it is a good idea to swap them anyway. Another thing to do with fuel trim issues is to get a pressure/smoke test of the intake tract done to check for leaks.

Bill
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Old 11-03-2011, 06:37 PM   #19
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Bill, the front O2 sensor has just a couple thousand miles on it. I will look at a smoke test, and also think about the MAF sensor. I also bought a stock air filter. I could put that in to test it. Would you recommend that before replacing MAF?

I notice the A/F learning gets much higher when the car sits idle, or coasts with little to no throttle application. Does that make sense?

Thanks Bill,
Jason
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:36 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Bill, the front O2 sensor has just a couple thousand miles on it. I will look at a smoke test, and also think about the MAF sensor. I also bought a stock air filter. I could put that in to test it. Would you recommend that before replacing MAF?

I notice the A/F learning gets much higher when the car sits idle, or coasts with little to no throttle application. Does that make sense?

Thanks Bill,
Jason
Sorry Jason - I had forgot your mentioned that you recently replace the front o2. What was the reason behind replacing it? Did you get a check engine light and if so, what code?

I would still seriously consider replacing the MAF sensor.

When you log A/F Learning 1, you are logging the currently applied value. There are actual 4 stored values that are applied across 4 airflow ranges, so the switching back and forth is not necessarily changing fuel trims, but changing which one is applied. You can view all 4 at once by viewing/logging the A/F Learning 1 A, B, C, D values.

Bill
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:13 PM   #21
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Hi Bill,

The O2 sensor was replaced by the prior owner. I believe it threw a code. Today, I replaced the K&N air filter with a brand new stock air filter from the dealership (while doing this I think I discovered that the back clips on the air box cover weren't fully engaged- nice... this may have had some impact- duh!). I then took a ride and have posted a WOT runs file with each new WOT run started by a green line (also posted a 3rd gear dyno run for your information). Take a look now (it looks better to me) and let me know what you think.

Should I still do a smoke test, or at least clean if not replace the MAF?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FdqWTZuY21VMnc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nZDVkJyc0daZWc

Last edited by jmikeumo; 11-05-2011 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Simplified Link
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:12 AM   #22
Cobb Tuning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikeumo View Post
Hi Bill,

The O2 sensor was replaced by the prior owner. I believe it threw a code. Today, I replaced the K&N air filter with a brand new stock air filter from the dealership (while doing this I think I discovered that the back clips on the air box cover weren't fully engaged- nice... this may have had some impact- duh!). I then took a ride and have posted a WOT runs file with each new WOT run started by a green line (also posted a 3rd gear dyno run for your information). Take a look now (it looks better to me) and let me know what you think.

Should I still do a smoke test, or at least clean if not replace the MAF?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...FdqWTZuY21VMnc

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nZDVkJyc0daZWc
You'll need to give it a decent amount of cruise-type driving before making any determination. You may want to reset the ECU (via the AP troubleshooting menu) so you can reset the long-term fuel trims and then drive for about a week. Then check each of A/F Learning 1 values individually (A, B, C, D).

Bill
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