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Old 11-18-2011, 11:20 AM   #51
gotsugg
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Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
Hey Brian. Weld it, you will need the space. Holset specifies a maximum CHRA mounting angle of +/- 10* from centerline, and +/- 5* from rotor center line. The CHRA center line is easy to get, to stay within 10* on the rotor you have to control the amount of "lean-back" or rearward tilt. Needless to say, I spent more time building my up-pipe, than I did on any other single element of fabrication/installation.....

If you guys weld to a Holset turbine, please pre/post-heat, to normalize. If not you risk failure because of a cracked housing due to lack of normalization and dissimilar thermal expansion.

The HX40 and HX35/HY35 have the same 7mm rotor shaft bore, so swapping things around to build hybrids between the 40 and 35 is very easy. FYI the 8-blade 40 wheel is a 60lb/min wheel, while the "super/pro" wheels (6 and 7 blade) are 69lb/min, upgradable to (WTF!) 74lb/min. Hot sides (HY/HX35-40) are available in 9cm, 12cm, 16cm and Im pretty sure you can get a 40 with a 18cm.

I made a pretty nice chart that breaks down all the available trims and comp dimensions. Ill try and post it up tonight.
You know you are making my head hurt
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Old 11-18-2011, 12:38 PM   #52
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and just to confuse you a little more this is the formula to convert a standard open T3 housing nozzle area (CM^2) to A/R

( ( CM^2 x 8 ) - 7 ) / 100 = AR

so i did some math

12cm = .89 A/R
10.38 = .76 A/R
9.63 = .70 A/R
8.75 = .63 A/R
7.75 = .55 A/R

i know the BEP Mitsu fitments wont apply to this because the area inside the housing is different then the T3 so this calculation will not apply. this is for T3 only

but it gives you a comparison where the aftermarket T3 Housings A/R (.55 .63 .70) fall in line with the OE/holsets CM^2 (9 12 16 18).

Last edited by johnt2k7; 11-18-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 11-18-2011, 03:26 PM   #53
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That is great info John. It does clear a few things up.

I'm sort of torn between the 7 blade hx35 and the hx-35/40 hybrid. Here's how I've broken it down thus far.

The 7 blade hx35 out flows the 8 blade. The 8 blade is a 52lbs/min and the 7 blade is a 60lbs/min. So choosing between the two I would go with the 7 blade hx35. BTW, I think the 8 blade would still be a great option but if I'm going to make a change, I want something bigger than my current 52lbs/min Dom 3.

The hx-35/40 hybrid would use the 8 blade hx40 comp wheel and the hx35 turbine wheel. It too should flow around 60lbs/min, as I understand it. Keep in mind there are several versions of the hx40. The 8 blade does not flow as much as the popular 6 and 7 blade versions, which is a 69lbs/min turbo. IMO the 6 and 7 blade hx40 wouldn't make a good hybrid candidate.

From what I have read these two turbos should spool and flow about the same...... assuming the same turbine housing is used. The edge would probably go to the hybrid due to it's larger comp wheel but still the spool should be the same since they both use the same turbine wheel and housing.

And then there is the which turbine housing to choose.

I'm sure there are things that I am leaving out or have not thought of so feedback is very welcomed.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:47 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotsugg View Post
That is great info John. It does clear a few things up.

I'm sort of torn between the 7 blade hx35 and the hx-35/40 hybrid. Here's how I've broken it down thus far.

The 7 blade hx35 out flows the 8 blade. The 8 blade is a 52lbs/min and the 7 blade is a 60lbs/min. So choosing between the two I would go with the 7 blade hx35. BTW, I think the 8 blade would still be a great option but if I'm going to make a change, I want something bigger than my current 52lbs/min Dom 3.

The hx-35/40 hybrid would use the 8 blade hx40 comp wheel and the hx35 turbine wheel. It too should flow around 60lbs/min, as I understand it. Keep in mind there are several versions of the hx40. The 8 blade does not flow as much as the popular 6 and 7 blade versions, which is a 69lbs/min turbo. IMO the 6 and 7 blade hx40 wouldn't make a good hybrid candidate.

From what I have read these two turbos should spool and flow about the same...... assuming the same turbine housing is used. The edge would probably go to the hybrid due to it's larger comp wheel but still the spool should be the same since they both use the same turbine wheel and housing.

And then there is the which turbine housing to choose.

I'm sure there are things that I am leaving out or have not thought of so feedback is very welcomed.
great breakdown. both of you haha. i knew about the wheels being different but i didnt know about the hybrid canitdates. and i ddint know the 8blade version flowed 52lbsmin...thats about the same size of an hta green, or a large 20g. im guessing if you have a 2.5l block, a .70 ar housing would be super ideal for responsive spool time. BEP sells it and the .63 housing from garret would be the same way as well. but i guessing it would lack in top end after 7k, give or take headwork and or cams. But I guess this is great information to know because of the fact that I know I have a 60lb/min 7blade holset hx35w with a .70ar housing. will post pics of it tonight sometime.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:48 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by johnt2k7 View Post
and just to confuse you a little more this is the formula to convert a standard open T3 housing nozzle area (CM^2) to A/R

( ( CM^2 x 8 ) - 7 ) / 100 = AR

so i did some math

12cm = .89 A/R
10.38 = .76 A/R
9.63 = .70 A/R
8.75 = .63 A/R
7.75 = .55 A/R

i know the BEP Mitsu fitments wont apply to this because the area inside the housing is different then the T3 so this calculation will not apply. this is for T3 only

but it gives you a comparison where the aftermarket T3 Housings A/R (.55 .63 .70) fall in line with the OE/holsets CM^2 (9 12 16 18).
nice mathwork. ive wondered this for a while but its good to know the housing size for a T3 format.
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Old 11-18-2011, 06:49 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by 3MI Racing View Post
so long as you don't cross the knee (see 'rating') then you don't really have a life cycle concern.

As for my new rods, of course life cycle depends on the given power. With that being said, it's the reason I'm my own guinea pig...or select customers.

Not releasing anything yet as the ones for this application are prototypes, sorry.
thats still fine if its hush hush, but still in for results when it gets running. whats the ETA on that?
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Old 11-18-2011, 08:35 PM   #57
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Bunch of stuff I pulled off BAE turbo's web-site, and consolidated. They sell these wheels (below comp wheel chart), they also sell a super 40 conversion wheel and comp housing. I called them to ask why they dont make their super 40 conversion with the 6-blade wheel, they say its not as durable, and flows the same as the 7-blade, so whatevah. Dude also said in the next couple months they have a 62 and 64mm super wheel and comp housing coming out. Its nice to be able to just get the wheel and compressor housing if your going the hybrid route. Just get a HX35, and the BAE wheel and housing, bamm, save about $200 over buying both turbo's and piecing junk together. I havent a clue as to the durability of their parts, so make them warranty.



Hot side sizes for reference.:



Best Holset link EVER!: http://www.myholsetturbo.com/links.html
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Old 11-18-2011, 10:55 PM   #58
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WOW Great info albersondh!!!!!!!!!

I wonder why it doesn't list the hx35 in a 7 blade? or your hy35? plus, I didn't know there was a 6 blade hx35

And OMG, could they have any more options in the same turbo? I guess the only way to really know which one you have is by measuring the wheels.
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:05 PM   #59
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great breakdown. both of you haha. i knew about the wheels being different but i didnt know about the hybrid canitdates. and i ddint know the 8blade version flowed 52lbsmin...thats about the same size of an hta green, or a large 20g. im guessing if you have a 2.5l block, a .70 ar housing would be super ideal for responsive spool time. BEP sells it and the .63 housing from garret would be the same way as well. but i guessing it would lack in top end after 7k, give or take headwork and or cams. But I guess this is great information to know because of the fact that I know I have a 60lb/min 7blade holset hx35w with a .70ar housing. will post pics of it tonight sometime.
Yea, Post pictures and how long will it take to get it installed and tuned

Do you have a link to the Garrett housing you mentioned? I have yet to run across such a beast. The .63 I mentioned was made by Tims Turbo's. http://timsturbos.com/products/turbine-housings
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Old 11-18-2011, 11:42 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by gotsugg View Post
WOW Great info albersondh!!!!!!!!!

I wonder why it doesn't list the hx35 in a 7 blade? or your hy35? plus, I didn't know there was a 6 blade hx35

And OMG, could they have any more options in the same turbo? I guess the only way to really know which one you have is by measuring the wheels.
yea theres a 6blade hx35w. obviously as we have been discussing, the fewer the blades, the more efficient it is at higher boost levels and will flow more. they do make a 7blade hx35w cuz I OWN ONe haha. but i dunno why its not on the chart. but there are so many variations for this turbo, that hybrids are pretty much limtiless for whatever power you want. from 52lb min to 72lb min...thats pretty much an amazing selection for an OEM turbo hahahha and nvm, tims turbos is who makes the housing i was talking about..not garret.
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Old 11-19-2011, 12:26 AM   #61
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Yea some of the stuff BAE offers leaves me scrathcing my head... You would need to call and verify but this is what I THINK (could get dangerous). Less blades does not exactly mean more flow, the blade design comes into play, and as BAE pointed out to me the 6-blade has thiner blades and is not as durable as the 7-blade. Now they didnt specify application and neither did I, but it may be safe to assume that the durability issue comes into play more in diesel application where these are pushed way outside of any usable effeciency range for an electr-ignition application, and considering use in diesel application especialy for agricultural use, particulate contamination may be more of an issue for the diesel guys. Some sources rate the 40 6 and 7 blade both at 69lbs/min, some rate the 6 blade slightly higher, but good luck finding a verifiable map to confirm anything. Holset is extreamly proprietery with their information since counterfitting has become a serious (check the carnage) issue. I think the 6 blade hx35 "may" be a drop in replacement for the 35 7-blade (have to call BAE to confirm). Deminsionaly their 6-blade 35 wheel is very close to the 40 6-blade pro, with a bit less tip height, so this may be a good option for a high power HX35 build.

Im anxious for you guys to get things built and spinning.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:48 AM   #62
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David, like you said before, their like lego's.

I'm still very interested in knowing the difference between the hx35 and hy35 turbine wheel.
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Old 11-19-2011, 04:03 PM   #63
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David, like you said before, their like lego's.

I'm still very interested in knowing the difference between the hx35 and hy35 turbine wheel.
yea they are like leggos, but no one wants to piece together a "piece";p .....uhm we maybe going down this path again, but isnt the hy35 have a 55lb/min turbine? but i dont know about any of the combinations for the hy35 turbos. I should have mine on my new motor in about a few weeks or so, and its a 2.1l, built to rev to 9k with meth and 93oct. so this willl show the responsiveness of the turbo and how far it can be taken up to with a .70ar without tapping out.
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Old 11-19-2011, 09:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by em1bugeye View Post
yea they are like leggos, but no one wants to piece together a "piece";p .....uhm we maybe going down this path again, but isnt the hy35 have a 55lb/min turbine? but i dont know about any of the combinations for the hy35 turbos. I should have mine on my new motor in about a few weeks or so, and its a 2.1l, built to rev to 9k with meth and 93oct. so this willl show the responsiveness of the turbo and how far it can be taken up to with a .70ar without tapping out.
Did you ever mention whose tuning the car?
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:27 AM   #65
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Did you ever mention whose tuning the car?
I have choices btwn 3 people who are very reputable at tuning, but it all depends on my location, what my power goals are at the time, and a few other things, but power isn't the goal at the moment. I think the goal is to get the car running at this point. Im in the southeast area, so if I do get tuned, its either from topspeed or Forged performance if I cannot go back to Texas to get tuned.
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Old 11-20-2011, 01:37 AM   #66
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since we are all hear id like to talk about oiling requirements ,Iv been reading alot and just wandering.

whats everyone running for a oil feed?
is any one running a restriction ?
i didnt think they where needed for JB turbos just BB ?

on the DSM forums their seems to be alot of debate on weather to run a restrictor and what size? their also seems to be alot of discrepancy what to run based on weather the car is running a Balance shaft,oil squirters,or where the oil line is tapped into.

my plan was to replace the stock hard line and tap the oil galley at the back of the head and run a braided SS line to feed AVCS and turbo with just a normal -4 AN fitting with no restriction , similar to the link below

OIL FEED LINE IWSTI

also what kind of oil return are you guys running ? just the standard 5/8 (16mm) or -10N AN line?

i ask because according to Holset the spec is a 19mm (3/4) minimum oil drain line ? but that is also on thicker 15-40 oil ???
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:25 AM   #67
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I just run a simple -4 oilfeed line with no restrictor. then a 5/8 return just because it just gravity drains better. plus a -10 line is too small where the return line meets the hard line connected to the back of the head. its a 5/8. as long as the oil pressure doesnt reach above 24psi (idle) and 80psi (WOT), I think all will be ok, but thats impossible to monitor without a gauge and a proper sending unit. since i dont have AVCS, its pretty straight forward with my setup, but i guess the 06+ wrx and (04+sti) guys have it a little bit differently since the AVCS line is more complicated. if anyone uses rotella T oil, thats obviously going to be a thicker weight, but i dont know about running that oil if your using stock bearings as the tolerances arent made for something that thick.
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Old 11-20-2011, 08:44 AM   #68
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Reference 1:4 Installation data.

http://www.myholsetturbo.com/manuals/



I run Rotella T-6. The return line spec is 14mm id. I used an Aluminim Garret flange and welded on a section of -10 AL flexable tube(not enough room for a fitting at the CHRA dump), flared the tube at the end and slid a section of 5/8" oil hose over that to finish off the return. Im using the P&L feedline that taps off the AVCS banjo. Forget about restrictors and junk, thats for 4g63 guys without balance shafts. If you are going to tap from a location other than the OE CHRA feed, I would reference the below and linked Holset pressure specs, and verify by plumbing in a "T" and a gauge.

From above Holset reference:

Holset permits oil return pipes to decline at an overall angle of not less than 30 degrees below horizontal. All turbocharger applications require a pipe of internal diameter greater than 14 mm which has integrated connectors. To ensure oil returns into the engine under all operating conditions, the return connection into the engine sump must not be submerged and the outlet flange of the turbocharger must be 50 mm above the maximum oil level of the engine sump pan. Crankcase pressure should be limited ideally to 0.8
kPa (0.12 lbf/in2) but 1.4 kPa (0.20 lbf/in2) can be accepted by reference to Holset.

Oil pressure of 150 kPa (20 lbf/in2) must show at the oil inlet within 3 - 4 seconds of engine firing to prevent damage to turbocharger bearing system. A flexible supply pipe is recommended.

The minimum oil pressure when the engine is on load must be 210 kPa (30 lbf/in2). Maximum permissible operating pressure is 500 kPa (72 lbf/in2) although 600 kPa (88 lbf/in2 is permitted during cold start up. Under idling conditions pressure should not fall below 70 kPa (10 lbf/in2).

Recommended oil flows for the turbochargers are 2 litre/min at idle and 3 litre/min above maximum torque speed.

Last edited by albersondh; 11-20-2011 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 11-20-2011, 10:52 AM   #69
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John, I am running one of these. http://www.importimageracing.com/fas...1-wrx-sti.html

If I go the Holset route I would hope to run off the T with a breaded line to the Turbo's oil feed with no restrictor.

David, Tim shared this info with me on turbine wheels:
hx35 69.5/60mm
hy35 65.11/58mm
I'm liking the hx/hy-35 hybrind option for a fast spooling street car wanting to make power from 3500 (or sooner) to 7000...... and 400whp+ on e85
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Old 11-20-2011, 03:24 PM   #70
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I'm using a restrictor .065 only because I be read a lot of post bout smoke blowing out of exhaust without a restrictor then they installed one and the smoke went away. Better safe then sorry. Also I was reading some DSM post bout the T3 drain tubes possibly be too small for the holset. I just took a step drill to enlarge it. I prolly added a good 1/4 inch in size. I don't think it will cause a problem.
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Old 11-21-2011, 02:48 PM   #71
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is anyone else running a restrictor on their setup? and oiling issues? chime in people.
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Old 11-23-2011, 09:57 PM   #72
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I'd like to throw in my hat, even though it's not anything yet...
story:
sell 2002 wrx 5 spd with bolt ons to fund move...
end up moving back where i started, buy pristine 2002 wrx auto
have baby boy
begin plans for home made big tubo setup...

I've always liked the idea of a short manifold/ front mounted turbo setup. Since i'm in no hurry, i've officially dedicated myself to doing a fog light turbo on this car. I've always liked the Holset turbos, even in my pre-subaru days, they are pretty much legend for their durability, great flow out of the box, and very very reasonably price. Adding to that the fact I'm a Cummins diesel technician, I'm pretty much pre-destined to using a Holset... Being that i'm a stock 2.0 (for now...) i need 1 of 4 turbos:
hx35w
hy35w
he351cw (pretty much same as hy35, just updated, alittle better wheels/housings)
he351ve

my first choice was the 351ve, however, they are hard to come by in good working order for cheap (under 200 bucks). They also require some custom working with a wastegate actuator hooked to the sector shaft (actuates the vgt ring) to set them up for vgt use. Also, still require an external wastegate (unlike the diesel engine in which they can vary the a/r enough to control boost) plus they are heavy, like, 50 freakin pounds, no lie!!!

second choice was a hx35w. why? 3 words: Twin Scroll Baby!!! Problems being, these things are apparently worth their weight in gold on e-bay, even cores. It's stupid. Chinese rebuilt units go for less than some of the used ones. F that S right in the A!!! Requires a fairly complicated/expensive manifold (twin scroll and 2 EWGs) However, fate shined kindly upon me a few days ago, when i came across a long block swap that a co-worker was replacing a good turbo with a new (by new i mean NO core charge!!!!) turbo. Yes, hx35w goodness!

Plan is to do this on the super duper cheap. (See "had baby boy")
things to buy
ebay el header for factory 2.0 engine ($150)
ebay 38mm wastegates ($59/per)
ebay big ass i/c ($160)
ebay i/c piping kit ($100)
ebay exhaust ($150)
mod stock injectors...

will keep you guys updated and probably start a new thread to end the hijack

sorry
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Old 11-24-2011, 12:39 AM   #73
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not sure how a 02 Auto tranny will hold up with a rotated turbo ???

i know a few people are sitting on the VGT turbos but no one is running them yet due to boost control complexity

the HX35 doesn't have to be used on a TS manifold and their are aftermarket single scroll turbine housing upgrade options as well

be very Leary on ebay. im not saying everything on ebay is crap because i have parts on my car that i have purchased from ebay. but 80% is crap and you really have to search and do your research before you buy.

and i rec if you decide to go modded injectors you get a set of flow matched modded and return yours as cores because self modding injectors can end up with that diff flow scaling for each injector and would be near impossible to tune .

if you search the forums you can find alot of info and i would search and search until you can answer all your own question before attempting to build it, good luck and hope to see more.

Last edited by johnt2k7; 11-24-2011 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 11-24-2011, 01:21 AM   #74
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To my knowledge you cant mod the OE injectors to get you any where near what you will need to make any variety of Holset happy on E85 (my 08's came out to 910cc). For E85 I would say the starting point for even an HY should be 1200cc. If not running E85, disregard.

The VE is going to come into its own here in the next 8 months or so. Your going to see off the shelf logic control solutions. Shop early, they are still dirty cheap, Cummins guys hate them to death, and love to ditch them for 35's, 40's, even dual's (coumpound). Got mine sitting on a shelf waiting for a good stand-alone to hit the streets. But yea, its a 45lb turbo, easily worth it in terms of power:weight if you factor in the spool potential, but engineering/fabricating a mounting solution turned me off (good controller would change my mind, maybe)....
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Old 11-24-2011, 09:40 AM   #75
wrxhard
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Fargo, ND
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2002 WRX

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Originally Posted by johnt2k7 View Post
not sure how a 02 Auto tranny will hold up with a rotated turbo ???

i know a few people are sitting on the VGT turbos but no one is running them yet due to boost control complexity

the HX35 doesn't have to be used on a TS manifold and their are aftermarket single scroll turbine housing upgrade options as well

be very Leary on ebay. im not saying everything on ebay is crap because i have parts on my car that i have purchased from ebay. but 80% is crap and you really have to search and do your research before you buy.

and i rec if you decide to go modded injectors you get a set of flow matched modded and return yours as cores because self modding injectors can end up with that diff flow scaling for each injector and would be near impossible to tune .

if you search the forums you can find alot of info and i would search and search until you can answer all your own question before attempting to build it, good luck and hope to see more.
Thanks for your concern, and i appreciate the advice. I'm a bit more knowledgable than i came across last night. (Jim Beam Devil's Cut was typing last night). I re-read my post from last night and i sounded pretty young and stupid, it's quite comical really.
And i am pretty worried about using some of the ebay stuff, especially the wastegates those may have to be upgraded to tial mvs. I've had good luck with ebay headers, intercoolers and exhausts in the past though. I know that you don't have to go twin scroll to use an hx35, but twin scroll is a great way to get power and drivability out of a big turbo/small engine setup. And also, buying a single scroll housing for it kind of defeats the purpose of getting a free/cheap turbocharger. Keep in mind, you can get BRAND NEW journal bearing garrett turbos from atp for like $700. And to address the injectors, yeah, modded stocker's aren't concrete, as i know flow rates can be all over the place on a diy mod. That is one place i'll spend some money to be sure i'm getting what i need (probably some 1200's from five-o).
And as far as the auto tranny... Yeah, about that. all i can say is i'm gonna be running really low boost until i can get that addressed. Really don't wanna do a 6spd swap, but i'm looking at a 5 speed swap and honestly, it's not that much less expensive when going from an auto, since both need a new rear end and the 6spd is obviously ever so slightly stronger I'm really not as stupid as i sound, i swear!

Quote:
Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
To my knowledge you cant mod the OE injectors to get you any where near what you will need to make any variety of Holset happy on E85 (my 08's came out to 910cc). For E85 I would say the starting point for even an HY should be 1200cc. If not running E85, disregard.
I will be running e-85 in the future, but being a fairly high mileage 2.0, as my daily driver, it won't be pushed very hard. It will almost certainly be supplimented with water/meth in the future as well.
/hijack
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