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Old 03-17-2013, 12:47 AM   #526
Layvon
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Yeah - put on about 90-110 miles.

I forgot to take a finished product picture but i have some preliminary photos when i was in the "design" phase Turned out exactly how i envisioned.

Welded a -8an male to a -6 male, screwed a 3/8" barb onto that and went to fuel pump.For the return i just welded a male -8 to the top of the pump housing. Looks proper.

By I welded i mean Rich. ... I'm not quite compitent yet
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:03 AM   #527
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It's good you got that all worked out! How'd she feel on the road, fun i'll bet?
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:05 AM   #528
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nice bro, sorry if it was answered before what happen at 6k? Boost swing?
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Old 03-17-2013, 01:24 AM   #529
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Yeah she is fun. The cold air (19) has it getting a little boost happy and hitting boost cut, so Junior suggested dropping wgdc in affected areas. I will get some logs tomorrow to show spool and stuff. Im curious myself.

90-110 miles today. It was a good time by all involved
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:40 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
Yeah she is fun. The cold air (19) has it getting a little boost happy and hitting boost cut, so Junior suggested dropping wgdc in affected areas. I will get some logs tomorrow to show spool and stuff. Im curious myself.

90-110 miles today. It was a good time by all involved
Yeah, I had the same boost happy issues in the cold. It's got to feel good to be driving it! Cool, I'd like to see some logs!
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Old 03-17-2013, 05:32 PM   #531
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Not a complete log, but here is a screen shot from today.
I'm not sure I'd trust my wideband AFR, I put a new one in, but I'm still having the same fricking issues getting the gauge / comptuer to match up. I'm thinking a Innovate is going to be purchased after this house, and I can mount a AEM Fuel Pressure gauge in the Apillar, because I'm anal about matching

You can see that I hit boost cut right there, . I'm adjusting WGDC right now to try to fix it.

I'm liking that 28% IDC. Overbuilding is nice.



Also - Here is the fuel system updates



Last edited by Layvon; 03-17-2013 at 05:38 PM.
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Old 03-17-2013, 09:03 PM   #532
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Does the vipec have temp compensation for boost control? Im assuming not since youre altering duty. The Aem doesn't and I don't understand why. The boost control is pretty simple but I find that I end up just setting the raw duty cycle and using it as though it were open loop works best. But then again I'm in Hawaii and we don't know what the word season means while everyone else in the US does. But than again we know the real meaning of the phrase strategic missile defense, while everyone just thinks they do lol

What size runners did you end up with again? I don't recall.
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:04 PM   #533
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Im on the G4 box, though im pretty sure it is the same frigging thing ..(gmc vs chevy in my mind). They have boost compensation for iat and ect temps.

I had 1.25 sch 10 runners on headers if i remember right. I truthfully dont remember
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Old 03-17-2013, 10:51 PM   #534
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Im on the G4 box, though im pretty sure it is the same frigging thing ..(gmc vs chevy in my mind). They have boost compensation for iat and ect temps.

I had 1.25 sch 10 runners on headers if i remember right. I truthfully dont remember
They're probably 1.5" primaries! I'd check with Fobiawrx on the spec, he built them correct?
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:49 PM   #535
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They're probably 1.5" primaries! I'd check with Fobiawrx on the spec, he built them correct?
Matt builds them to request so it depends. Full race uses 1.25 so that's roughly the same as a perrin header. I only asked because the primaries have a pretty big effect on spool.
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Old 03-17-2013, 11:54 PM   #536
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Wouldn't it be more logical to pull duty based on iat then? This would be good time to have dual iAt to pull ambient though since iat post intercooler may not register the deltas in ambient as well.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:56 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by reid-o View Post

Matt builds them to request so it depends. Full race uses 1.25 so that's roughly the same as a perrin header. I only asked because the primaries have a pretty big effect on spool.
It's 1.5" primaries. 1.25" primaries would be way too small for the exhaust port!! Perrin uses 1.5" and 1.625" on their big tube header.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:26 AM   #538
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I was laying in bed as I wrote that last night, but I did some looking up of stuff...
1.25 sch 10 is bigger than 1.25" ID; it doesnt have to make sense lol... it is actually 1.442"

I have all of them setup, Boost Per gear, IAT Compensation, and ECT Compensation.
The main WGDC Table is based on Target boost.

I'm confused by why you're asking about the IAT Delta Reid-O? I'm not running a hydra
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Old 03-18-2013, 08:50 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
I was laying in bed as I wrote that last night, but I did some looking up of stuff...
1.25 sch 10 is bigger than 1.25" ID; it doesnt have to make sense lol... it is actually 1.442"
That's the ID of the 1.5" OD tube correct?
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:11 PM   #540
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Tube and pipe sizing conventions are different so you must be carefull what you refer to. Tubing size will alway be the OD of the tube. 1.5" tube will always have a 1.5" OD and the ID is determined by the wall thickness ordered. Piping sizing is the oposite so 1.5" pipe will always have an ID of 1.5" and the OD will vary based on wall thickness, aka SCH #.

Scratch that. piping sizing is just F'd up based on size and SCH but the nominal ID can be less that the stated size.

Last edited by kellygnsd; 03-18-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:54 PM   #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Does the vipec have temp compensation for boost control? Im assuming not since youre altering duty. The Aem doesn't and I don't understand why. The boost control is pretty simple but I find that I end up just setting the raw duty cycle and using it as though it were open loop works best. But then again I'm in Hawaii and we don't know what the word season means while everyone else in the US does. But than again we know the real meaning of the phrase strategic missile defense, while everyone just thinks they do lol

What size runners did you end up with again? I don't recall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
Im on the G4 box, though im pretty sure it is the same frigging thing ..(gmc vs chevy in my mind). They have boost compensation for iat and ect temps.

I had 1.25 sch 10 runners on headers if i remember right. I truthfully dont remember
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
They're probably 1.5" primaries! I'd check with Fobiawrx on the spec, he built them correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
Matt builds them to request so it depends. Full race uses 1.25 so that's roughly the same as a perrin header. I only asked because the primaries have a pretty big effect on spool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
It's 1.5" primaries. 1.25" primaries would be way too small for the exhaust port!! Perrin uses 1.5" and 1.625" on their big tube header.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
I was laying in bed as I wrote that last night, but I did some looking up of stuff...
1.25 sch 10 is bigger than 1.25" ID; it doesnt have to make sense lol... it is actually 1.442"

I have all of them setup, Boost Per gear, IAT Compensation, and ECT Compensation.
The main WGDC Table is based on Target boost.

I'm confused by why you're asking about the IAT Delta Reid-O? I'm not running a hydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
That's the ID of the 1.5" OD tube correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Tube and pipe sizing conventions are different so you must be carefull what you refer to. Tubing size will alway be the OD of the tube. 1.5" tube will always have a 1.5" OD and the ID is determined by the wall thickness ordered. Piping sizing is the oposite so 1.5" pipe will always have an ID of 1.5" and the OD will vary based on wall thickness, aka SCH #.

Scratch that. piping sizing is just F'd up based on size and SCH but the nominal ID can be less that the stated size.
Does anyone have any research they could contribute to my thread? I've been curious about this stuff after reading about Evo's matching ID to power goals!

Thanks!
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Old 03-18-2013, 01:36 PM   #542
manitou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Tube and pipe sizing conventions are different so you must be carefull what you refer to. Tubing size will alway be the OD of the tube. 1.5" tube will always have a 1.5" OD and the ID is determined by the wall thickness ordered. Piping sizing is the oposite so 1.5" pipe will always have an ID of 1.5" and the OD will vary based on wall thickness, aka SCH #.

Scratch that. piping sizing is just F'd up based on size and SCH but the nominal ID can be less that the stated size.
10/4 on this Kelly, I said tube and not pipe in my statement which is incorrect. To clarify (or confuse) this all a bit, here is a bit more info on all of this.

Tubing is sized by OD and rated in gauges or wall thickness like 16 gauge 1.5" is .065 wall thickness, yielding an ID of 1.37". Pipe is rated in schedules, a schedule 10, 1.5" NPS (nominal size ID) pipe has an ID of 1.682", a .109 wall thickness and an OD of 1.90".

So Levon and Reid were correct about the the pipe size, a schedule 10 1.25" NPS pipe has an ID of 1.442", a .109 wall thickness and an OD of 1.660".

I confirmed the above off of Vibrant's site!

It's funny because 304 SS pipe would be what you would want to use for headers in schedule 10 or schedule 40 because of the increased wall thickness.

Chris at Killer B uses 321 SS 1.625" OD tubing for the primaries on his Holy Header. The stock size 321 tubing you can get range in wall thickness from .035 up to .375. Chris uses the .065 wall thickness netting a 1.50" ID (actual 1.495"), they are pretty stout as his headers carry a lifetime guarantee!

Full Race uses a 304 SS Schedule 40 1.5" NTS pipe and that has very close to a .125 wall thickness. Very stout, fairly heavy but this makes up for the less heat tolerant 304 vs. 321 stainless steal's higher heat tolerance because of the higher titanium content.

Last edited by manitou; 03-18-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 03-18-2013, 05:03 PM   #543
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Just to echo what you said Allan, my headers are pretty stout, I'm not sure what size secondary or uppipe but it is definitely bigger.

So basically the Holy header and my header are the same dimensionally, obviously different shapes but A cut sheet would be hard to tell The difference from the naked eye.

I will take a look at your thread zee biker
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:00 PM   #544
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I find that I get some overboost (only a psi or so) when ambient temps dip (not that they dip that much here), but my IAT at boost is typically around 100 degrees. I find that, while the ambient temps swing by 30 degrees, the IATs after the intercooler don't swing as much at pressure. I find that the car can heat soak in colder ambients just as much as it can in higher temps, so that would mean that WGDC compensation would follow the heatsoak, but the temperature at the turbo inlet may be a lot lower. This doesn't mean it's not possible to apply compensations for WGDC with IAT. It's just that at cooler ambient temps, the turbo often doesn't have to work as hard to develop pressure (due to increased density) and so ambient temps I feel are a better indicator. I would prefer 2 temp sensor for this purpose assuming that there is IAT compensations. Now for fueling and ignition timing, IATs post intercooler are the way to go.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:13 PM   #545
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Ah okay. Well I dont know if there is IAT Compensation on this ECU, I am leaning towards negative.

What I do know is that for the one or two pulls I was doing, that DR725 was far from heat soaked. (4 degrees C IAT ) It was 29-30 out yesterday, or 10 degrees over ambient after doing a couple pulls and car was on for ~ 45 min. For what I'm doing with my car, I think that it is a fairly easy to modify the WGDC for cold weather and if I'm not hitting target boost come summer, I
l'll just bump it up a fuzz.

As I'm sure most assume, this isn't a daily driver anymore, so doing a little tweaking here and there is fine with me.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:31 PM   #546
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I'm thinking a little tweaking of the PID settings and the activation points for the 3 stage boost control is in order. Closed loop should be able to compensate for changes in temp. If you have to worst case set you WGDC table so you don't overboost in cold conditions and let closed loop do your compensations when its hot. If you P, I, and D are tuned right you shouldn't have a problem hitting your target. It not that cold in SoCal but so far closed loop is doing it for me from 35F to 95F ambient. I am IWG and only @ 15 psi too though.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:24 PM   #547
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I think you may be onto something here ... I need to tweak my WGDC vs IAT table in conjunction with the main table. If I am still having issues across the IAT Temperature range, then bump the table down and start over.

Anton went through it quite a bit getting his boost control dialed, and like you said on the phone, just back it off and add it back in once you realize you're not hitting target boost. 100 ways to skin a cat.

Riddle me this. ...
As RPMs / Boost rise, you're obviously using more fuel, so consequently, more air.
In order to keep the air flow across the turbo the same, you need less and less percentage of wastegate closed to get the same amount of air because of the added pressure?

Example - I was getting boost cut at 24% WGDC in 3rd / 4th gear at roughly the same period, so that eliminates the per gear WGDC adjustment. So I dumped that to 20% in that area. Should I taper off the WGDC to a smaller number near redline, Say 15%?
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:51 PM   #548
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Only mess with the IAT and ECT boost tables if you want to trim or add boost based on IAT or ECT. Their are boost target trim tables that need to be tuned in conjunction with the WGDC trim tables also. Also, tune your entire WGDC table in the same gear preferably 3rd or 4th and use the per gear tables to fine tune the other gears. The comp should be zero for the gear you tuned the WGDC table to.
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:19 PM   #549
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^ what he already said
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Old 03-18-2013, 10:40 PM   #550
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Thanks guys!
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