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Old 06-04-2012, 12:13 PM   #301
Squidz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
if either of those were true, the air temp post intercooler wouldn't be screaming up.

also, keep in mind that the temps my sensor is reporting are less than actual feed temps because there is a delay time in the sensor readings. Not big, but the temps are higher than indicated.


I'm starting to think you guys are just attempting to poke holes in my data....
Suit yourself, do whatever the hell you guys want. I don't make intercoolers. I have nothing to gain by sharing this information and educating you guys. You can take my information and use it and be a more knowledgeable person, or you can ignore it.

I'm just trying to help. Some people will listen, the rest of you guys can go screw yourselves.
Wow...way to throw a temper tantrum...

Never poked any holes in anything...I'm getting different results at the track than you are getting on the dyno and i'm trying to explain/understand it. Got a lot of respect for you Maxwell and didn't really think this is the way you would respond to something like this. Just trying to have an informed discussion, heaven forbid we do that around here...Sorry to question you.
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:31 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I don't think you realize how fast the air moves through these things. I also know for a fact you haven't put sensors in numerous intercoolers. If you had you wouldn't waste the bandwidth telling me any of this.
Lets be sure we are all using the same descriptors:
Short describes the length of the intercooler from top to bottom, throttle body to y pipe if you will.
Thick is core thickness along the cooling path of ambient air through the scoop.
Wide is the width from strut to strut.

Yes, a thicker core will reduce velocity and give more time. But we are still talking about a tiny increase in time. a wider core should do the same, but it really doesn't as the air tends to take the shortest path. This is why only the center gets hot ; path of least resistance.

Look I'm not giving you theory here. These are real world facts and results. You guys can justify top mounts on big turbos to yourself how ever you want.
Plain fact is that if you are shooting for more than 350whp, you are feeding scalding hot air to your engine. I've pushed them to 380, but the air is HOT.
Did you miss the part where I told you that your empirical data trumps all. No need to get your jimmies all rustled.

Quote:
I also know for a fact you haven't put sensors in numerous intercoolers.
No, you're making ignorant assumptions here because you're all bent out of shape someone had to (minorly) correct you. Your ego is out of control.

A tiny increase in time? Get real. The increase in time is defined by an equation and a factor for endtank 'efficiency', not whatever opinion is congruent the statements you've already made. Again, I'm speaking to the generalizations you made earlier, not the silly TMIC debate.

Quote:
the rest of you guys can go screw yourselves.


I was seriously considering having you guys build a block for me because I don't have the time to do it myself.

Now that I know you're a total jerkoff who can't even take the slightest constructive criticisms, I'll make the time.

Last edited by izergfx; 06-04-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 06-04-2012, 12:55 PM   #303
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In a vaguely related point, considering that the stock IC location has some advantages (very short charge plumbing, relatively small overall volume, works well with the factory draw-through MAF setup), I wonder why more people don't experiment with using air/water intercooling setups. I mean, it's still not as efficient as a front-mounted air/air setup, but it seems like it might be more stable than the top-mounted air/air if you can keep coolant flowing through it at a reasonable rate.

I'd be interested to see how actual outlet temperatures an on air/water setup (with the core mounted in the stock location) compare to the larger TMICs.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:20 PM   #304
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A/W intercoolers are great for 1/4 mile runs, not so much for daily driving in stop and go traffic.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:25 PM   #305
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I'd think that would depend on how well you can get the heat exchanger to work.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:43 PM   #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
if either of those were true, the air temp post intercooler wouldn't be screaming up.

also, keep in mind that the temps my sensor is reporting are less than actual feed temps because there is a delay time in the sensor readings. Not big, but the temps are higher than indicated.


I'm starting to think you guys are just attempting to poke holes in my data....
Suit yourself, do whatever the hell you guys want. I don't make intercoolers. I have nothing to gain by sharing this information and educating you guys. You can take my information and use it and be a more knowledgeable person, or you can ignore it.

I'm just trying to help. Some people will listen, the rest of you guys can go screw yourselves.
We're not trying to poke holes in your data Dom we are just pointing other parameters in the heat transfer equation. People often confuse temperature with energy and temperature change with the amount of actual energy transferred. Take two intercoolers with identical efficiencies but one has double the mass and both have the same specific heat capacity. If both intercoolers remove 50,000 BTUs of energy from the charge are over the coarse of a pull and the heat rejection abilities of the intercoolers are the same, the intercooler more mass will show a smaller temperature rise on contact but the charge air out of the intercoolers may be the same. That is all I was saying. I will go screw myself now.
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Old 06-04-2012, 03:25 PM   #307
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18g xt-R dyno plots? (with any ic)
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:42 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
Wow...way to throw a temper tantrum...

Never poked any holes in anything...I'm getting different results at the track than you are getting on the dyno and i'm trying to explain/understand it. Got a lot of respect for you Maxwell and didn't really think this is the way you would respond to something like this. Just trying to have an informed discussion, heaven forbid we do that around here...Sorry to question you.
not you.

Read my post. It's the ones who argue with no valid points or thoughts that appear to just be poking me.

The ones who get offended are making it their own choice to be offended. I put no names out there. So if you think I'm telling you to go screw yourself, then you must be one of the guys ignoring and arguing. I didn't think you were, but I'm not going to type out every name of every person who is irritating me.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:48 AM   #309
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Did you miss the part where I told you that your empirical data trumps all. No need to get your jimmies all rustled.

No, you're making ignorant assumptions here because you're all bent out of shape someone had to (minorly) correct you. Your ego is out of control.

A tiny increase in time? Get real. The increase in time is defined by an equation and a factor for endtank 'efficiency', not whatever opinion is congruent the statements you've already made. Again, I'm speaking to the generalizations you made earlier, not the silly TMIC debate.





I was seriously considering having you guys build a block for me because I don't have the time to do it myself.

Now that I know you're a total jerkoff who can't even take the slightest constructive criticisms, I'll make the time.
Criticism is not what this is about. It's about helping people make the right choice in intercooling. If someone is criticizing me because I'm trying to help then I have every reason to be upset.

You types (izergfx) are all the same.
I'm not begging you to let me build you a motor. If you want some of the best around, you'll contact me. Otherwise I won't lose any sleep. Don't be a child and threaten me with that crap. " I was going to have you build me a motor" whhhhaaaaaaaa..

Oh my god, Dominic from Maxwell is a human with real emotions? I can't have him build me an engine then! Whatever.

Dominic got angry in a post, he deserves to go out of business for it!

I get this crap all the time from people who NEVER REALLY PLANNED on buying a motor, but it makes them feel good to say crap like that.
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:43 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Dyno Tuned an 18GXTR on an 05STi with a PW TMIC. Miserable intercooling as I have said over and over. PW is one of the better TMIC's, but due to space limitations they just can't take the heat load. In one pull IAT goes from 66 to 117*F at 19psi.

Turbo did alright: 341whp/369tq
And you worked miracles with my hta68/Sti TMIC!

(Yes, I know a 20xgt is in the cards sometime, though).
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:27 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Criticism is not what this is about. It's about helping people make the right choice in intercooling. If someone is criticizing me because I'm trying to help then I have every reason to be upset.

You types (izergfx) are all the same.
I'm not begging you to let me build you a motor. If you want some of the best around, you'll contact me. Otherwise I won't lose any sleep. Don't be a child and threaten me with that crap. " I was going to have you build me a motor" whhhhaaaaaaaa..

Oh my god, Dominic from Maxwell is a human with real emotions? I can't have him build me an engine then! Whatever.

Dominic got angry in a post, he deserves to go out of business for it!

I get this crap all the time from people who NEVER REALLY PLANNED on buying a motor, but it makes them feel good to say crap like that.
Sorry pal, but being so thin skinned as to tell someone with a dissenting opinion to go screw themselves is not a 'normal emotion' for a professional. Sure, you have the right to be upset, if you want to portray yourself as some kind of crybaby infant who can't tell if someone is criticizing the person or the opinion. It reeks of narcissism and I won't have anything to do with that.

The motor isn't a threat You can try to rationalize it as whatever you want, but the bottom line is your that attitude sucks and it has cost you an existing customer.

Last edited by izergfx; 06-05-2012 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 06-05-2012, 02:47 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by izergfx View Post
Sorry pal, but being so thin skinned as to tell someone with a dissenting opinion to go screw themselves is not a 'normal emotion' for a professional. Sure, you have the right to be upset, if you want to portray yourself as some kind of crybaby infant who can't tell if someone is criticizing the person or the opinion. It reeks of narcissism and I won't have anything to do with that.

The motor isn't a threat You can try to rationalize it as whatever you want, but the bottom line is your that attitude sucks and it has cost you an existing customer.
I honestly don't care.

I went through the definition of professional and I can't find the part that deals with jerks on the internet... Could you provide me a link or send me a dictionary with that in there?
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:30 PM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
I honestly don't care.

I went through the definition of professional and I can't find the part that deals with jerks on the internet... Could you provide me a link or send me a dictionary with that in there?
Jerks, a.k.a people that respectfully disagree with you.

Way to add sarcastic ass to the whole crybaby thing.
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Old 06-05-2012, 04:00 PM   #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izergfx View Post
Sorry pal, but being so thin skinned as to tell someone with a dissenting opinion to go screw themselves is not a 'normal emotion' for a professional. Sure, you have the right to be upset, if you want to portray yourself as some kind of crybaby infant who can't tell if someone is criticizing the person or the opinion. It reeks of narcissism and I won't have anything to do with that.

The motor isn't a threat You can try to rationalize it as whatever you want, but the bottom line is your that attitude sucks and it has cost you an existing customer.
This isn't directed directly towards you, but rather in the direction of the pissing matches that go on between supposed "Customers" and vendors every time a vendor voices his/her true opinion.

Rant:
Every time a vendor comes on this forum and posts his/her opinion and backs it up with actual real world data, some ass clown comes in with the story of how his sisters, brothers, mothers, dad. Did this one thing and it worked so their is no possible way for your data to be correct.
Everybody claims to be an expert on the internet. 3/4 of the threads on this forum are cluttered with mis information, stupidity and bickering. Its a bunch of bull****.

Its the same cycle every time, theirs countless posts with supporting data of why one persons theory is correct. Yet people refuse to see it and instead insult the person/vendor by saying they are being childish and unprofessional. And then claim that they wont be doing business with them because of the way they acted. This makes you the childish one.
/Rant
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Old 06-05-2012, 04:18 PM   #315
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Considering how I made it very clear that nothing trumps the empirical data, that I 100% agree on the whole TMIC vs FMIC debate, and that my point was not about hearsay but rather a fundamental of fluid flow & my own personal experiences, I don't see how any of that is relevant.
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Old 06-05-2012, 04:47 PM   #316
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If that's how you see it, so be it.

I was providing DATA, actual DATA and then explaining how it works and why. There is no room for argument there. That's why I got irritated. Because some people (not all) were disagreeing with me. As if I was fabricating data because I had something to gain from it. I had nothing to gain. I was only trying to help pass on facts and beneficial data.
Questions are not arguments, I'm aware of that. I have no issue with those people. The people who were "arguing" know who they are. Those are the ones that can get bent. If you aren't one of those people, then relax.
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Old 06-05-2012, 06:26 PM   #317
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I've never ended a relationship with a buisness because someone spoke their mind...actually...many times that has started good relationships.

I think people should always speak their mind...the gods know i do. It's all good.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:01 PM   #318
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haha, Dom, you made my day with this one.
you folks.... hands down, only place I'd ever go for my motors.
Forum, no forum, doesn't matter what anyone says, #1.
Cheers!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Criticism is not what this is about. It's about helping people make the right choice in intercooling. If someone is criticizing me because I'm trying to help then I have every reason to be upset.

You types (izergfx) are all the same.
I'm not begging you to let me build you a motor. If you want some of the best around, you'll contact me. Otherwise I won't lose any sleep. Don't be a child and threaten me with that crap. " I was going to have you build me a motor" whhhhaaaaaaaa..

Oh my god, Dominic from Maxwell is a human with real emotions? I can't have him build me an engine then! Whatever.

Dominic got angry in a post, he deserves to go out of business for it!

I get this crap all the time from people who NEVER REALLY PLANNED on buying a motor, but it makes them feel good to say crap like that.
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:48 PM   #319
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Lets stop La Telenovela and get back on topico please, 18GXTR plots anyone...
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Old 06-05-2012, 07:49 PM   #320
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yeah sorry. Let me get that graph for you.
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Old 06-05-2012, 10:41 PM   #321
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Heres a PW tmic dom1.5xtr kelford264's with IAT post intercooler

Code:
RPM	IAT	MRP
2051	59	1.09
2112	59	1.53
2196	59	1.82
2313	59	2.25
2396	59	2.69
2543	59	3.27
2636	59	3.85
2727	59	4.57
2878	59	5.44
2982	59	6.31
3115	59	7.47
3278	59	8.93
3408	57	11.1
3576	57	14.15
3796	57	17.92
3979	57	19.37
4219	57	19.23
4342	57	19.52
4649	57	19.23
4832	57	19.08
4939	57	18.79
5228	57	18.5
5359	57	18.07
5585	59	17.92
5704	59	17.49
5855	59	17.34
6075	59	16.91
6188	61	17.05
6385	61	16.47
6512	63	16.47
6736	63	16.62
6880	63	16.62
7023	64	16.33
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:47 PM   #322
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geezus 0 deg delta between 2K - 6K rpm.
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:49 PM   #323
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What type of temp sensor and where is it mounted Ron?
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Old 06-05-2012, 11:51 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by V8 GTFO Lesbic WGN View Post
Lets stop La Telenovela and get back on topico please, 18GXTR plots anyone...
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:06 AM   #325
Squidz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Heres a PW tmic dom1.5xtr kelford264's with IAT post intercooler

Code:
RPM    IAT    MRP
2051    59    1.09
2112    59    1.53
2196    59    1.82
2313    59    2.25
2396    59    2.69
2543    59    3.27
2636    59    3.85
2727    59    4.57
2878    59    5.44
2982    59    6.31
3115    59    7.47
3278    59    8.93
3408    57    11.1
3576    57    14.15
3796    57    17.92
3979    57    19.37
4219    57    19.23
4342    57    19.52
4649    57    19.23
4832    57    19.08
4939    57    18.79
5228    57    18.5
5359    57    18.07
5585    59    17.92
5704    59    17.49
5855    59    17.34
6075    59    16.91
6188    61    17.05
6385    61    16.47
6512    63    16.47
6736    63    16.62
6880    63    16.62
7023    64    16.33
That's more what i'm used to seeing on mine...around 5-10 degrees difference in a single gear pull. Was this taken from a dyno pull...or a road pull?
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