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Old 12-21-2011, 04:03 AM   #151
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Guess that mean Williams will hold on to Maldonado even though he was fairly blah last season. Money talks....
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Old 12-21-2011, 08:40 AM   #152
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Guess that mean Williams will hold on to Maldonado even though he was fairly blah last season. Money talks....
That's exactly what they're going to do. The same thing happened with Nakajima. He get's the ride and the team got free Toyota engines.

Is if Friday Practice 1 in Melbourne yet?
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:32 AM   #153
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That's exactly what they're going to do. The same thing happened with Nakajima. He get's the ride and the team got free Toyota engines.

Is if Friday Practice 1 in Melbourne yet?
Front page of autosport:

"Alonso: Ferrari wants 'dominant' car"

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Old 12-21-2011, 09:39 AM   #154
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I don't care for Ferrari, but if Fernando is driving, then Fernando...is...faster...than...you...

Do you copy?
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:10 PM   #155
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I find it highly interesting that the PVDSA sponsorship agreement with Williams isnt more transparent GIVEN that Williams is a public company. I'd consider this to be a critical component for Williams valuation.
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Old 12-21-2011, 06:01 PM   #156
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Well, their sidepods had the car numbers on them, and that usually isn't a good sign. Not to mention they floated the team on the stock market this year.

Edit:

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/...-in-venezuela/

Proof that Williams is basically hanging on via PDVSA sponsorship.
I don't see the numbers as a big deal, Williams always makes a profit, and they also aren't teh only team whose run numbers on their side pod.

What in that article makes it proof that they're hanging on the sponsorship?
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:02 PM   #157
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I don't see the numbers as a big deal, Williams always makes a profit, and they also aren't teh only team whose run numbers on their side pod.

What in that article makes it proof that they're hanging on the sponsorship?
Ferrari have big numbers on the side pod?
Red Bull? (sort of, but not really)
Merc?
McLaren?
Renault/Lotus?
Sauber?

The teams ahead of Williams this year had logos, not numbers, on their side pod. They need legitimate driver's and sponsorship.
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Old 12-21-2011, 11:15 PM   #158
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I don't see the numbers as a big deal, Williams always makes a profit, and they also aren't teh only team whose run numbers on their side pod.

What in that article makes it proof that they're hanging on the sponsorship?
Which other teams run the car numbers where sponsors should be? HRT?

Williams floated the team because they ran out of sponsors...

http://www.formula1blog.com/2011/02/...tock-offering/

Also...from the article I posted:
Quote:
“Sponsoring a F1 racing team is most definitely not a priority expenditure for an entity that can derive NO commercial benefit from such capricious outlay. Bear in mind that PDVSA is not a commercial brand, and that it sells nothing to consumers with its brand – now painted in various places on your race cars. The financial situation of the Williams Formula 1 team is probably a matter of great concern to its owners, employees, and commercial sponsors. However, there is no acceptable explanation as per why 28 million Venezuelans have to foot the bill, to simply help Williams survive."
An F1 team without a title sponsor or billionaire owner (eg Mallya/Stoddart) doesn't survive. Remember Prost after they lost Gauloises? Yeah, me neither...

Last edited by Ol Gregg; 12-21-2011 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 12-22-2011, 06:42 AM   #159
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I don't care for Ferrari, but if Fernando is driving, then Fernando...is...faster...than...you...

Do you copy?
That was such garbage when they pulled that on Massa, but hey there are no team orders in F1.....
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Old 12-22-2011, 07:37 AM   #160
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That was such garbage when they pulled that on Massa, but hey there are no team orders in F1.....
Actually team orders were banned when that happened. They removed the rule when they realized it was virtually impossible to police it
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Old 12-22-2011, 09:00 AM   #161
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That was such garbage when they pulled that on Massa, but hey there are no team orders in F1.....
I didn't like it any more than you did, but it was the right call. It gave them a shot to win the title.

The collateral damage is the remains of Felipe's career...
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Old 12-22-2011, 11:34 AM   #162
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The collateral damage is the remains of Felipe's career...
Well if he wasn't slower (literally) than Alonso it wouldn't be a problem...
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Old 12-22-2011, 12:42 PM   #163
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I've been saying Sutil wasn't that good for years. He's a pay driver, and it seems his money has run out.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:29 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Ol Gregg View Post
Which other teams run the car numbers where sponsors should be? HRT?

Williams floated the team because they ran out of sponsors...

http://www.formula1blog.com/2011/02/...tock-offering/

Also...from the article I posted:


An F1 team without a title sponsor or billionaire owner (eg Mallya/Stoddart) doesn't survive. Remember Prost after they lost Gauloises? Yeah, me neither...
Williams has a title sponsor, as I said earlier, its AT&T. Ferrari doesn't have sponsors on their sidepods, and they clearly have money. Williams is doing just fine, their problem has been management the last few years.
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Old 12-22-2011, 03:30 PM   #165
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I've been saying Sutil wasn't that good for years. He's a pay driver, and it seems his money has run out.
He paid for his seat?
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:06 PM   #166
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If he did it was only Medion (an electronics company) that put up any major cash. Capri-Sun is the only other personal sponsor of note that I am aware of.
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Old 12-22-2011, 04:49 PM   #167
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Williams has a title sponsor, as I said earlier, its AT&T. Ferrari doesn't have sponsors on their sidepods, and they clearly have money. Williams is doing just fine, their problem has been management the last few years.
Phillip Morris has the rights to the branding on the Ferrari. That space is paid for even if it's all red.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:07 PM   #168
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Default Vettel vs Senna

Sent this article to a coworker and I thought his head was going to explode.

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Is Vettel now better than Senna?
Ayrton Senna is widely-regarded as the greatest Formula 1 driver of all time, but could world champion Sebastian Vettel be on his way to stealing that mantle off the late, great Brazilian? Edd Straw analyses each driverís key strengths

Sebastian Vettel is better than Ayrton Senna.

There, I said it. Many will consider that statement to be sacrilegious, but what we have witnessed during the past two Formula 1 seasons is the emergence of an all-time great.

If you are a ĎVettel doubterí, to extend the religious metaphor, then perhaps itís worth reflecting on what weíve seen from the 24-year-old German so far in comparison to Senna.

Before proceeding, some caveats. First, while itís not a position I would necessarily agree with, Senna is widely held up as the gold standard for grand prix drivers. As such, the Brazilian is a valid point of comparison. The point of this article is categorically not to discuss Sennaís claim to greatness.

Second, there will be no attempt to draw a definitive conclusion. Some argue that comparing drivers of different eras is meaningless, and if your belief is that thereís some conceivable way to come up with a definitive answer, that is true.

But looking at the relative strengths and weaknesses of the great drivers allows us to think a little more deeply about their characteristics. As long as you donít take it too seriously, it can be a fascinating process.

Third, it goes without saying that Vettel is a work in progress. The analysis of the German will change and if he slides into obscurity for the next decade, then he will be reassessed.

History will show how Vettel is regarded once he is retired, and we can only go on what we have seen up to the end of 2011.

So, having established the limitations, letís look at the double world champion in more detail.

Qualifying

Itís very difficult to separate Vettel and Senna when it comes to sheer one-lap pace, as their records stack up very similarly at comparable stages of their careers.

After 81 races, Vettel has 30 pole positions, two fewer than Senna (up to the 1989 Monaco Grand Prix). Vettel spent 26 of those races in a car that wasnít capable of pole in dry conditions at Toro Rosso in 2006-07, compared to Sennaís 15 at Toleman in 1984.

Vettelís average pole position margin this year has been 0.325s, a healthy chunk but hardly symptomatic of a car with so big an advantage that anyone could stick it on pole (as some have tried to characterise the Red Bull RB7 as being). That is a crude indicator that Vettel has had to get close to the maximum potential of the car regularly.

The McLarens Senna drove from 1988-90 often had a greater advantage than that, even though you do have to take into account that he had to beat Alain Prost in the first two of those seasons.

Itís more revealing to look at his first two years at Lotus in 1985-1986, when the car definitely wasnít the best on Sundays, but was very competitive over a single lap. His 15 poles came with an average advantage of 0.480s.

Verdict: Impossible to separate the pair on this score, although the fact that Vettel stands comparison with a driver often recognised as the best qualifier of all says a lot about him.

Racecraft

Vettel was formidable in controlling races from the front in 2011. While others struggled with tyres, strategy and consistency, he so often led from pole position, paced himself to perfection and kept his rivals at armís length.

He also dispelled the myth that he canít overtake, passing Fernando Alonso on the grass at 160mph+ at Monza and pulling some crucial moves on out-laps in several early-season races.

Vettel proved this year that his racecraft was outstanding, but itís difficult to compare this aspect of his game to Senna without becoming too subjective.
Ayrton Senna McLaren 1993 Brazilian Grand Prix
Brazil Ď93; an example of Sennaís racecraft helping beat the dominant Williamsí © LAT

However, as a trend, F1 races are now closer at the front than they have been throughout much of grand prix history Ė and that means Vettel shades it on this front, especially when you take into account his ĎSenna at Estoril 1985-esqueí win at Monza for Toro Rosso.

Sennaís victories were achieved under very different regulations. Itís true that in many he had to deal with a multitude of different tyre compounds and also the challenge of managing fuel use during the turbo era. But the fact that he very often had a big car advantage meant that he would have more of a margin to play with than Vettel has had so far.

Of course, he also proved himself in this area with some against-the-odds wins, particularly in 1992 and 1993, when Williams had the advantage, but the modern era of F1 is unquestionably more competitive.

Verdict: Neither driver is lacking here, but Vettelís ability to control a race in a car with a relatively modest pace advantage gives him the edge. Also, despite a few mistakes in previous years, Sennaís on-track ethics were, at times, beyond the pale.

Dominance

Itís rare for drivers to dominate a season as utterly as Vettel has this year. His 11 wins and 15 pole positions in 19 races is a formidable record.

Again, the closeness of the competition at the front of the field works in his favour and itís difficult to know which of Sennaís championships should be considered the most dominant.
Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 2011 European Grand Prix
Vettel has hardly given team-mate Mark Webber a look-in in 2011 © LAT

His 1988 season was, in terms of wins, the best with eight in 16 races. Thatís a 50 per cent win rate compared to Vettelís 58 per cent. Against that, you have to take into account that having Prost as your team-mate is a bigger challenge than Webber.

But the bottom line is that the two championships Senna won after battling with Prost, 1988 and 1990 (when Prost was driving an aerodynamically superior Ferrari), were simply not as emphatic as Vettelís.

And Sennaís reliability was comparable, with only three mechanical retirements over the course of those two seasons.

Sennaís 1991 championship is an odd one and in terms of the points advantage he had through the year over Nigel Mansell, is his most dominant. But as the McLaren was eclipsed by the Williams FW14 relatively quickly, it wasnít possible to turn in a Vettel-like season.

While Sennaís circumstances were never perfect for utter domination, Vettel has managed to do so in a very competitive year by consistently extracting the very best from it and making relatively few mistakes.

Verdict: Vettel again shades this, partly through circumstances and partly through the fact that he has done it in a more competitive era.

Teamwork

Despite the media-amplified problems between Vettel and Webber last year (including the revelation that the Australian was suddenly very keen on having a front wing that he had wanted to discard after practice), the German has never become a polarising figure within Red Bull.
Ayrton Senna Alain Prost McLaren 1989 Japanese Grand Prix
Sennaís actions, such as Suzuka in Ď89, created dischord at McLaren © LAT

If anything, the way he has worked around the quite legitimate attempts of Webber to assert himself over him, is proof of how Vettel fears no one in the same garage as him.

Itís a matter of record that Senna was capable of creating, or contributing to, discord in the team. The Senna versus Prost rivalry is well documented, but there was also the antagonism at Toleman in 1984 when he signed a deal to switch to Lotus, not to mention his vetoing of Derek Warwick as a team-mate for 1986.

None of that is a huge negative for Senna, but it does suggest a clear need to build a team around his eccentricities. Thatís not to attack Senna, for he was within his rights to conduct himself however he pleased, but you can expect a smoother ride with Vettel.

Verdict: For team harmony, thereís no question that Vettel has the edge.

Ambassadorship

The mythology of Senna has grown over the past 15 years. So much has been written, so many eulogies and platitudes delivered, that it becomes impossible to view him in his proper context.

Jackie Stewart often talks about the responsibility of the world champion to be an ambassador for the sport and while Senna has done much in death to enhance the reputation of F1, in life he provoked a mixed reaction.
Ayrton Senna McLaren 1990 Japanese Grand Prix
Senna was rarely at ease in interviews, unlike the seemingly carefree Vettel © LAT

There were moments of tremendous dignity and there were moments that were not worthy of a world champion.

Vettel is a different case. Out of the car, he carries his fame with a self-confident, easy charm that allowed him to steal the show at the AUTOSPORT Awards.

Forget the image of a petulant, demanding driver Ė that was a curious creation in some sectors of the media that emerged in 2010. Vettel is the real deal on track and off it.

Verdict: Vettel wins, hands down.

The above is not claimed to be conclusive proof of anything. In statistical terms, Senna still outdoes Vettel in terms of championships, pole positions and wins, and no one doubts the Brazilianís claim to greatness.

But what we can see in Vettel are clear signs of a driver on his way to being one of the legends. Next time you find yourself bored by a runaway Vettel win, remember that you might just be watching a driver who will go down in history as a true great.

After all, itís not impossible he could go on to become the best everÖ
http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...er-than-senna/
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:54 PM   #169
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Tim

@ that article...stupid. Senna's achievements transcend the record books. Vettel is a quick, spoon-fed kid. Senna was the greatest ever not because of what he did, but how he did it, and his personality and beliefs.

Until Vettel changes teams, and becomes outspoken...I won't even put them in the same breath.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:16 PM   #170
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maybe Vettel should start making his salary demands so high that RBR is compromised budget-wise for a few seasons?

Would he then be more Senna-like?

From what I hear he's already got the temper tantrums down pat.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:39 PM   #171
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maybe Vettel should start making his salary demands so high that RBR is compromised budget-wise for a few seasons?

Would he then be more Senna-like?

From what I hear he's already got the temper tantrums down pat.
I think he needs to intentionally wreck another driver, then say he is doing everything he can to win the championship even ifthat means puttin other drivers at danger: that's ok. Afterall, if you're not doing everything you can to win you're not a real racecar driver
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:15 PM   #172
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He's already wrecked his teammate, and IIRC, the crash with Button in 2010 took Button out of the championship running...
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:16 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by StuBeck View Post
He paid for his seat?
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Originally Posted by artkevin View Post
If he did it was only Medion (an electronics company) that put up any major cash. Capri-Sun is the only other personal sponsor of note that I am aware of.
That...
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:20 PM   #174
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He's already wrecked his teammate, and IIRC, the crash with Button in 2010 took Button out of the championship running...
Different situations. Both were mistakes and he specifically apologized about the run in with Button while Senna's was intentional and premediatated
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Old 12-23-2011, 04:20 PM   #175
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punting into other cars while in the heat of a championship battle without really thinking things through is more Schumacher then Senna.
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