Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday July 29, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Motorsports

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-28-2012, 09:23 PM   #1851
este brawn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 304075
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ATX
Vehicle:
2011 TDI Wagen

Default

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
este brawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 10:45 PM   #1852
d3v0
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 225692
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2007 Subaru WRX TR
Stage 2 - MRT Exhaust

Default

Haha I like that. Grosjean hasnt completed many laps this year!
d3v0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 08:25 AM   #1853
Ol Gregg
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 287020
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
POS Corolla

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by falcongsr View Post
Ol Gregg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 08:48 AM   #1854
Ol Gregg
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 287020
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
POS Corolla

Default

http://planetf1.com/news/3213/763459...h-Not-Leading-

Quote:
'Red Bull are not a happy camp'

BBC F1 technical analyst Gary Anderson believes the Milton Keynes outfit's struggles may be down to the two major regulation changes this season.

"Exhaust-blown diffusers were banned, and load tests on front wings were stiffened up, preventing the edges of the wing dipping towards the track to improve downforce," he said.

"In the last two years, Red Bull's big benefit was in having a car on which they did not have to do much work at a race meeting. But in Malaysia, for the first time ever, I saw them changing torsion bars, roll-bars, ride heights and so on.

"They are obviously still trying to find their feet with their new car - there were not many times during the race weekend in Malaysia when they looked like the real opposition. They clearly have a lot of work to do."
Ol Gregg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 09:42 AM   #1855
d3v0
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 225692
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2007 Subaru WRX TR
Stage 2 - MRT Exhaust

Default

fundamentally though, all that change on the mechanical portions of the car resulted in an RB8 with very good traction/mechanical grip - even though its behind the Mac in aero. A roll reversal of the last two years. so - knowing they were behind in aero grip, the optimized their mechanical grip and did so quite well.
d3v0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 10:29 AM   #1856
ptclaus98
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 87888
Join Date: May 2005
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Vehicle:
1988 Toyota Supra
Boredom Personified

Default

I don't think it's the aero of the McLaren that is the issue. It's the lump at the back.
ptclaus98 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 10:58 AM   #1857
soldmyboxster
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 65520
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: International
Default

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/28/f...alaysian-gran/

Quote:
Even at a team like Ferrari (which has more grand prix victories to its name than any other team in Formula One – 217 to be specific), every win counts. Especially these days when they're far more scarce than they were in the Michael Schumacher days of back-to-back championships. So when Fernando Alonso took home the checkered flag in Malaysia this past weekend, there was cause for celebration in Maranello.

After winning the second race of the season and taking the lead in the standings, Alonso swung by Ferrari headquarters for a nice long chat with chairman Luca Cordero di Montezemolo, some training in the on-site gym and the traditional raising of the flag to mark the occasion, after which the two-time world champion apparently was gifted a brand-spankin' new Ferrari FF.

Whether the four-seat, all-wheel-drive, V12-powered shooting brake was a bonus outlined in his contract or a simple gesture of appreciation from his employers is likely known only by Alonso, Montezemolo and very few others, but either way, we doubt Fernando is complaining. The FF joins a growing stable of cars the star driver has received since signing with Ferrari, including a custom 458 Italia, a Maserati GranTourismo Convertible, an Abarth 695 Tributo Ferrari and a special edition Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8. Nice work if you can get it.
soldmyboxster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:02 AM   #1858
d3v0
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 225692
Join Date: Oct 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
2007 Subaru WRX TR
Stage 2 - MRT Exhaust

Default

to drag that pos to a win definitely necessitates a bonus; whether hed want an FF or not is another matter - personally I think its rubbish.
d3v0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:11 AM   #1859
este brawn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 304075
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ATX
Vehicle:
2011 TDI Wagen

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3v0 View Post
to drag that pos to a win definitely necessitates a bonus; whether hed want an FF or not is another matter - personally I think its rubbish.
While I don't fancy the FF much, if at all, it sure would be a nice DD to replace my buckets...
este brawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:32 AM   #1860
Tim_
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 304128
Join Date: Dec 2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by este brawn View Post
While I don't fancy the FF much, if at all, it sure would be a nice DD to replace my buckets...
x2.

2 long weeks til 1st practice at China.
Tim_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:36 AM   #1861
vicious_fishes
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 158864
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aussieland
Vehicle:
2003 GD w/EZ30D swap

Default

i think if i was in alonso's position of being gifted ferrari's, i wouldn't bother with the new "fast" ones. he's an f1 driver for gods sake.

now, some of the old ferrari's mind you are properly special...
vicious_fishes is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 11:39 AM   #1862
Ol Gregg
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 287020
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
POS Corolla

Default

Yeah...Lewis has his eye on the Orange F1 LM in the McLaren factory...and gets it if he can win 2 more world championships.
Ol Gregg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:09 PM   #1863
Tim_
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 304128
Join Date: Dec 2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol Gregg View Post
Yeah...Lewis has his eye on the Orange F1 LM in the McLaren factory...and gets it if he can win 2 more world championships.
Driving for McLaren.. which he wont.
Tim_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:18 PM   #1864
StuBeck
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 19546
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Rochester, NY
Vehicle:
2009 Honda Fit

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by este brawn View Post
Regulations don't allow what exactly?

They went to the FIA to bless the idea, and it was. Not sure why this is such a profound idea to understand.
Regulations don't allow the engine to run below 4 cylinders. That is the issue, you're the one not understanding what we're talking about.
StuBeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:20 PM   #1865
StuBeck
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 19546
Join Date: Jun 2002
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Rochester, NY
Vehicle:
2009 Honda Fit

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcsi99 View Post
I like how its the second Stubeck image post too.
StuBeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:27 PM   #1866
Indocti Discant
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 138000
Join Date: Jan 2007
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: et ament meminisse periti
Vehicle:
L Bo Hope you meet
the spirit in the sky

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim_ View Post
Driving for McLaren.. which he wont.
Dont count him out this year. I have a strong feeling that reliable results will go a much longer way than erratic victories and no-low points finish in determining the WDC.
Indocti Discant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:32 PM   #1867
Ol Gregg
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 287020
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NoVA
Vehicle:
POS Corolla

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
Dont count him out this year. I have a strong feeling that reliable results will go a much longer way than erratic victories and no-low points finish in determining the WDC.
Reliable results = podiums?

That was the reasoning for the new points system...so that drivers could make up large gaps in points with victories.
Ol Gregg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:47 PM   #1868
piknockout
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192173
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maryland
Vehicle:
2006 STU prepped STi
Sponsored by Agile Auto

Default

I think he means an erratic win + podiums, as opposed to last year's erratic wins + DNF's.


Edit: BTW, when did this become the OT gif thread?
piknockout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:54 PM   #1869
piknockout
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 192173
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maryland
Vehicle:
2006 STU prepped STi
Sponsored by Agile Auto

Default

Some more technical info/discussion:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2012/03/2...od-suspension/

Quote:
Originally Posted by f1fanatic

The problems with Ferrari’s front pull-rod suspension

Before the Malaysian Grand Prix the internet was awash with rumours Ferrari will introduce a B-spec car in the May test at Mugello.

We’ve heard similar claims in recent years when Ferrari have faltered early in the season. But despite Fernando Alonso’s surprise win in Malaysia it’s clear they have significant problems with the F2012.

Much attention has been focussed on its pull-rod front suspension. Last year most teams followed Red Bull’s lead in adopting pull-rod suspension at the rear of the car but Ferrari did not.

This year as well as using pull-rod suspension at the rear of their car, Ferrari have become the only team to use it at the front of the car.

The car has looked a handful to drive and was well over a second per lap off the pace in the dry in Sepang.

It’s doubtful this deficit is coming from a single area. It appears the exhaust position on their current car – the so-called ‘Acer ducts’ – needs to be changed in order to better seal the diffuser.

Ferrari will likely move the exhausts forward to allow more space to shape the airflow towards the floor. This would mean a change to the side-impact structure and therefore a new crash test.

The other question mark surrounds the front pull-rod suspension. Will the Scuderia persist with the system or abandon it in favour of a more traditional push-rod system?

In this short article we’ll examine the difference between the pull- and push-rod systems and how likely it is that Ferrari will make the switch back to push-rod.

The basics of suspension in an F1 car

An F1 car has a very small degree of suspension travel compared to a road car. Its purposes are not just to make the car ride well over bumps, but to improve traction and aid aerodynamic performance.

The suspension controls for bumps on the track and roll when cornering, both which affect the handling of the car. This is very complex as there are many dimensions to the car’s motion, as we’ll see later.

Suspension plays a vital role in managing aerodynamics. If a constant ride height can be maintained the car’s aerodynamics work better.

Also the suspension arms and wishbones can act to manage airflow downstream. Packaging is also important – the primary benefit of the rear pull rod was to reduce the centre of gravity (CoG) of the car (which we’ll see when we examine the front pull-rod in detail) and to create more space in the coke bottle zone to maximise airflow over the diffuser.

How push-rod suspension works



Most teams use a push-rod suspension system similar to that shown in the first illustration at the front of their cars.

The suspension arm, coloured blue, connects from the lower part of the wheel upright to a rocker located in the top-part of the chassis. The rocker connects the push-rod to a torsion bar and damper which manages ‘bump’ – i.e. the up and down movement of a wheel. The torsion bar is basically a spring but is twisted rather than compressed.

In addition there is an anti-roll bar which links the suspension across the chassis to control the degree of roll. This redistributes weight to the inside tyre, which helps traction. If you make the bar too stiff then when one wheel goes into bump the other follows and the car feels very unstable.

The final components are the inerter and heave spring. The heave spring manages vertical movement – i.e., when both wheels rise or fall together. Lastly the inter is a very subtle component and is tuned to the natural frequency of the tyres and translates the oscillating motion of the rubber into rotational energy – it is a spinning mass on a threaded bar – again to improve traction.

Of course, not all the bump absorption takes place in the suspension: Wheel rubber flex accounts for around 30% of this total movement in an F1 car.

Pull-rod versus push-rod suspension



The next illustration shows a pull-rod set-up. The components and function are the same.

There are two differences: the suspension arm is connected from the top of the upright to the bottom of the chassis, and the internal components are lower in the chassis.

This set-up has two advantages over the push-rod. By placing the suspension components closer to the ground the centre of gravity is lower. Also the suspension arm is better able to condition airflow from the front wing towards the sidepod so in theory there is a small aerodynamic gain.

However, the chassis shape is constrained by FIA guidelines so the aero gain is not as great as it is when pull-rod suspension is used at the rear of the car.

There are two main disadvantages to front pull-rod suspension. One is that the the upper wishbone must transmit more load, some of which would otherwise have been carried by the push-rod. This means the chassis and wishbone needs to be strengthened – see the yellow circle. This adds weight and negates somewhat the CoG gain.

The second disadvantage is it takes longer tune a pull-rod. This is important given the limited testing time in F1 today. Teams need to rapidly tune spring and damper settings and if the components are hidden away this is trickier and potentially reduces valuable track time.

In summary the net benefit of switching to a pull-rod is a (very) small aero gain at the expense of tuning simplicity. The final illustration shows the pull-rod and push-rod side-by-side and the difference in geometry and CoG are apparent.



However, Gary Anderson raised an interesting point in Autosport that may further comprise the front pull-rod set-up.

By connecting the push-rod to the wheel upright the driver can use steering angle to affect the suspension. Under steering the natural movement of the push-rod reduce load transfer across the chassis and effectively allows a softer set-up.

The opposite happens with a front pull-rod so it is connected to the wishbone rather than the upright to counter this effect. Hence all else being equal you need to run a stiffer suspension set-up which compromises mechanical grip.

In short, Anderson’s assertion is that the pull-rod also has mechanical compromises that more than offset the (small) aero gains.

Without having access to a dynamo data and proper car models, quantifying the effect is difficult. But the logic appears sound. There is no doubt that when Red Bull introduced the rear pull-rod with success teams will have evaluated a front pull-rod set-up as well. That only one team has adopted it suggests if there is a gain it likely is not worth the hassle.

What’s next for Ferrari?

Will Ferrari make the switch back to push-rod this year? Personally I don’t think so as it would be a massive admission of failure and the gain either way is minimal.

More likely is a switch back to push-rod for the 2013 car, unless the aero gains become more apparent in the re-design. Ferrari’s win in Malaysia makes things a little more interesting as the supposed mechanically disadvantaged pull-rod should not in theory yield benefit on a slippery surface.

However, the story of Ferrari’s victory (notwithstanding the tremendous efforts of Fernando Alonso) is in its ability to switch on the tyres in damp conditions better that its competitors, something which the Sauber appears even more adept at.

Their decision may be influenced by a desire to accommodate a Mercedes-style DRS-activated F-duct. Or that might serve as a useful excuse for abandoning the pull-rod set-up at the front of the car.

Ferrari are pinning their hopes on their May upgrade. Even if the updated packages works the Scuderia will struggle to catch up with McLaren and Red Bull as those teams have three months of experience in optimising the 2012 package and Ferrari will be starting from scratch.

Already the scene is set for a fascinating three days of testing in Ferrari’s backyard at Mugello in two months’ time.

piknockout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:55 PM   #1870
falcongsr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 305831
Join Date: Jan 2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by piknockout View Post
BTW, when did this become the OT gif thread?

You mean the On-Topic gif thread?
falcongsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 01:29 PM   #1871
Ken Cravillion
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 123985
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Oshkosh, WI
Vehicle:
2002 GMC Yukon
'10 Forester XT DGM

Default

My gif was on topic...
Ken Cravillion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 01:36 PM   #1872
SZRimaging
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 314053
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Northern Michigan
Vehicle:
2012 Impreza
Marine Blue Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBeck View Post
Regulations don't allow the engine to run below 4 cylinders. That is the issue, you're the one not understanding what we're talking about.
Where does it say they are below 4? The FIA ruled that they are within the technical rules.
SZRimaging is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 01:52 PM   #1873
delongedoug
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 124113
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: To infinity
Vehicle:
and beyond!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SZRimaging View Post
Where does it say they are below 4? The FIA ruled that they are within the technical rules.
Great start...
delongedoug is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 02:17 PM   #1874
este brawn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 304075
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ATX
Vehicle:
2011 TDI Wagen

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuBeck View Post
Regulations don't allow the engine to run below 4 cylinders. That is the issue, you're the one not understanding what we're talking about.
Really? I couldn't find that regulation, maybe you can?

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public...09-03-2012.pdf

Also, I never said they were going below 4 cylinders, so maybe you're not understanding what I'm talking about?
este brawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 02:52 PM   #1875
este brawn
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 304075
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: ATX
Vehicle:
2011 TDI Wagen

Default

I wonder how pissed/spiteful Massa is to Fernando these days? They weren't exactly best buddies (Germany 2007, Singapore 2008, Hockenheim 2010...). Now Fernando is kicking his ass all over the place, and being the team's biggest cheerleader to boot. Must be killing him inside.
este brawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My letterpress containment thread - Unamused Have A Christmas in stock + 2 new cards Matt A Off-Topic 499 12-16-2013 09:26 AM
Formula One 2010 Thread. The Skinny in the front Fat in the back Era artkevin Motorsports 3255 12-31-2011 12:35 AM
Formula One 2011 Thread, KERSy with a hint of Flappy Back Wing artkevin Motorsports 1853 12-03-2011 04:26 PM
Psuedo-Official Cold & Flu Season 2011/2012 Thread Asinine Off-Topic 51 11-18-2011 10:54 AM
Vintage Formula 1 Car Thread sperry Off-Topic 40 08-08-2005 12:51 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.