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Old 12-31-2012, 10:05 AM   #326
manitou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I asked dom, he was talking about the fuel pump being at 100% at idle over-running the stock regulator and causing erratic fp.
First off, Thanks Ron for starting this incredible thread! What a great idea!! What a great discussion here, I love this **** and taping into all the incredible knowledge of all of you here!!

I know what Dom was getting at with this statement but also wanted to mention the benefit of having a bigger pump re-wired with larger wire and a FPR to take advantage of higher pressure to increase flow at the injectors!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
that is a true statement. look at any Fuel pump flow graph. The bosch044 is about the only one thats linear across the pressure range.



It would be nice to see graphs of the Walbro 400 and bigger DW pumps if they are available to compare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
that is a true statement to a point. it depends on alot of things....fuel pump, fuel pressure, boost....

if you turn the fuel pressure up on a walbro255 and you're running 26+psi on a decent size turbo on e85, the fuel flow will decrease and the car will lean out.
Agreed, I should have mentioned that you really need a pump that can keep up with the demand of the boost of a bigger turbo and the increased fuel pressure to push the injectors harder!

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxpowr View Post
so is the stock fuel pump controller, ok with being wired to the walbro 400 with direct 14v?
Totally, This is how my system is set up with the Walbro 400, an Aeromotive FPR and Junior made 535 WHP with my build and 1100 cc injectors at 80% idc. The fuel system had no trouble keeping up and Junior held back timing because of balance issues with the injectors, which we corrected now. So maybe we'll see a bit more power! Bottom line is this pump in the stock hangar, re-wired through the FPC with an aftermarket FPR can support pretty big power!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
Here look at this diagraph. The way it works is power supply voltage comes into the controller through the red power wire and goes out through the red wire to the pump. The ECU communicates with controller through the blue wires. Ground from fuel pump goes back to the controller through the yellow wire. The pump is controlled 33% 66% 100% through PWM signal, basically turning the pump on off at high speed to control the pumps output. Basically same way a boost control solenoid is controlled.

With all the wiring going through the controller it is going to limit amperage that can be carried on the circuit. If you want to hard wire the pump completely bypass the controller otherwise there is still going to be amp limitation to the system.

Thanks for the correction/ clarification on this, I should have studied the electrical path a little better before posting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
^^its always good to hard wire if you are looking for consistancy, I bought the 460 and am in a spot to either simply hardwire (directly to battery with larger wire) or go all out with the a1000 surge tank and all kind of like yours, I can see that being a 5-600 dollar difference at the least

here's a hardwire install kit, dw sells http://www.forcedfabllc.com/deatschw...tallation-kit/
I think simpler is better as long as you can meet your needs and goals! KISS is good most often!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
I think some of you may be over-thinking this a little. If you go and look at the wiring diagram in the manual, it is a VERY simple system (edit-just realized the diagram is posted above).


To answer your question maxpowr, yes, the stock fuel pump controller will be fine if hardwired to it and then from it to the fuel pump. This will allow you to reap the benefits of having the hardwired fuel pump, but also to still allow the ecu to have control over it's duty cycle. There will be a very slight voltage drop across the controller, but it will be very small and won't really cause any issues or anything. Doing things this way is definitely better than the stock wiring. Obviously, the better solution would be to just hardwire the fuel pump for 100% operation, install an aftermarket fpr, and then you won't have anything to worry about.

This is why I like to go with the boost-a-pump on setups that are street driven (I say this because on cars that see extended periods of hard use like road racing and such, fuel temperature may come into play using a boost-a-pump). It allows the fuel pump controller to do it's thing at idle and when in vacuum, but above 5psi of boost, the boost-a-pump will regulate AND step up voltage depending on what you have the control knob set at. If the control knob is set to the lowest setting, no matter what the input voltage is, the output voltage is 14v, and if it is set at the highest setting, no matter what the input voltage, the output voltage is 17.5v. Take a look at what some of the smaller fuel pumps out there flow when the voltage is increased...even the little walbro 255 starts to shine a little...
This is right on and I have found that with the big Walbro it will support some fairly big power! Speaking with my buddy Angel at HP Techs about this, his experience is that when he goes to dual pumps in tank he then hard-wires directly bypassing the controller for 100% duty on the pumps.

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Last edited by manitou; 12-31-2012 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 12-31-2012, 02:06 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
This is right on and I have found that with the big Walbro it will support some fairly big power!

Heck yeah it will! The walbro 460 with 17.5v probably flows close to 400lph@80psi (couldn't tell you the exact number because I haven't seen any increased voltage flow specs from walbro)! That is BIG turbo type fueling from a single in-tank pump!
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Old 12-31-2012, 04:32 PM   #328
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I didn't see where power was coming or going in that schematic.
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:24 PM   #329
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Positive are the wires that are traced in red, the fuel pump negative is the wire traced in yellow, and the wires between the ecu and the controller are the wires traced in light blue...or turquoise or whatever color you want to call that
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Old 12-31-2012, 05:33 PM   #330
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That's what I thought...Werd up.
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:52 AM   #331
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Any of you guys have a Walbro 400 installed in an 08+? How did you make it fit and do you have pictures?
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:27 PM   #332
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I will put pics up as soon as i get a new keyboard for my iMac.
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Old 01-02-2013, 06:09 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
I don't believe voltage is your concern here, it's the smaller oem wire/pump controller can't supply the amperage demand that the fuel pump has. The higher psi the higher the amp draw.
Potato/tomatoe. When sufficient amperage cannot be supplied, measured voltage will go down.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:20 PM   #334
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...what bswilmington is trying to say is that the voltage isn't the biggest concern. the biggest concern is that when amperage is increased beyond the limit of the factory wiring it can cause the wires to heat up, melt their coating, and cause a fire.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:32 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
...what bswilmington is trying to say is that the voltage isn't the biggest concern. the biggest concern is that when amperage is increased beyond the limit of the factory wiring it can cause the wires to heat up, melt their coating, and cause a fire.
That's not how I am interpreting this conversation.

They are referring to the poor pump performance when run on factory wiring/controller, and the gain that can be had in pump performance by running a direct-to-battery positive lead. The terminology is somewhat irrelevant...and what's funny is many (including me) have actually tested this stuff and moved on. But yet there are threads of people TALKING for days and days about it. Backprobe the main fuel pump wiring after it leaves the controller with a DMM with the car idling and you'll have all of the evidence you need -- the voltage observed is well below alternator output. The FPC kills voltage/current even at 100%, yo.

The risk of fire via melted wires is a separate conversation and one that I personally think is overstated. The point of the circuit's fuse is to prevent just that. If the circuit is being overloaded to the point of creating a risk, that's one of the things the fuse is for. Otherwise we'd see cars with jammed power windows and sunroofs burning themselves down left and right. Does anyone know of this actually happening in a road-driven Subaru?
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:55 PM   #336
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Ok guys, you're both talking about the same thing. Voltage drops, current increases. Current is restricted voltage increases to compensate. Wiring is sized to carry a prescribed amount of current based on the base voltage.

You are both right! OK?

Cheers !
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:28 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
Ok guys, you're both talking about the same thing. Voltage drops, current increases. Current is restricted voltage increases to compensate. Wiring is sized to carry a prescribed amount of current based on the base voltage.

You are both right! OK?

Cheers !
Agreed - and I think we were also talking about two different things.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:52 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
Does anyone know of this actually happening in a road-driven Subaru?
John at akuma is the only one i recall stating that the aero340/walbro400 "necessitate" the pump re-wire or else they will start a fire.

The way he made the statements, it made it seem like they had several fires that they traced back to teh fuel pump....but thats just my interpretation. Otherwise, he was merely making the comment based on teh wire gauge and amp draw.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:11 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post

Agreed - and I think we were also talking about two different things.
This is true! If you put larger wire to carry higher amperage with a stock pump you might get a no or a slight flow increase. If you undersize wiring with a larger current drawing pump you get no or minimal gains.

Last edited by manitou; 01-02-2013 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:17 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post

John at akuma is the only one i recall stating that the aero340/walbro400 "necessitate" the pump re-wire or else they will start a fire.

The way he made the statements, it made it seem like they had several fires that they traced back to teh fuel pump....but thats just my interpretation. Otherwise, he was merely making the comment based on teh wire gauge and amp draw.
Exactly my point. Wire size is relative to amperage draw based on our 12 volt systems. Yes we can see voltage of 14-16 or even spikes to 18 volts on our 12 volt systems when conditions are right. When the pump needs a certain amount of wattage to flow what it needs both voltage and amperage will vary but we need to size the wires based on amperage draw on our 12 volt system!
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:44 PM   #341
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Im agreeing on rewiring the pump and bypass the controller.

Only thing im saying is the wires (and the controller also) cant carry the demand amperage of the pump. Its not the voltage that is needed, its amps. Wires aren't restricted by the voltage amount, its the amperage that rates the wire. Amps and voltage aren't the same thing.

Lance I cant find proof of the output of the fuel pump but Im pretty sure the pump is controlled with pulse signal that would need an oscilloscope to see the signal clearly. I don't think a DMM would pick up the signal fast enough to give accurate reading. Next time I have a pump out in new WRX Ill see if this is true, but that may be awhile.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:55 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
John at akuma is the only one i recall stating that the aero340/walbro400 "necessitate" the pump re-wire or else they will start a fire.

The way he made the statements, it made it seem like they had several fires that they traced back to teh fuel pump....but thats just my interpretation. Otherwise, he was merely making the comment based on teh wire gauge and amp draw.
The theory is definitely legitimate, my experience just hasn't really shown it to be a practical risk and Subarus have shown themselves to have pretty robust electrical systems -- IE, they take enough precautions against circuit overloads. The same thing (significant amperage draw above design) can happen if the fuel pump is badly worn, the fuel filter is badly clogged, the pump jams on a foreign object, etc.

FWIW, my car was setup with an A340 on the stock FPC pinned to 100% for a prolonged period of time with no adverse affects noticed. I took a couple road trips that would have included 4+ hours of continuous on time, save for fuel and pee stops. While mostly cruising there was certainly some 3rd-4th-5th blasts at over 400whp on E85, so definitely "used" the pump during those trips as well.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:58 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
Lance I cant find proof of the output of the fuel pump but Im pretty sure the pump is controlled with pulse signal that would need an oscilloscope to see the signal clearly. I don't think a DMM would pick up the signal fast enough to give accurate reading. Next time I have a pump out in new WRX Ill see if this is true, but that may be awhile.
It is PWM with 3 adjustable steps. Factory are 33.3%, 66.6% and 100%, though these can be adjusted to a user's content.

While it is PWM, while it's at 100%, do you care what the "on" vs. "off" voltage is? Seems to me an average across a DMM is just fine as that represents what the pump actually sees across its averaged switched values. At an actual modulated rate below 100%, I would agree it is likely important enough to skew the result (so yes, it's important to know what DC the controller is at if you're trying to take voltage readings).
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:11 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
It is PWM with 3 adjustable steps. Factory are 33.3%, 66.6% and 100%, though these can be adjusted to a user's content.

While it is PWM, while it's at 100%, do you care what the "on" vs. "off" voltage is? Seems to me an average across a DMM is just fine as that represents what the pump actually sees across its averaged switched values. At an actual modulated rate below 100%, I would agree it is likely important enough to skew the result (so yes, it's important to know what DC the controller is at if you're trying to take voltage readings).
DMM on PWM signal is about as good as a test light, you can tell there is voltage but your reading isnt always accurate.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:21 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
Only thing im saying is the wires (and the controller also) cant carry the demand amperage of the pump. Its not the voltage that is needed, its amps. Wires aren't restricted by the voltage amount, its the amperage that rates the wire. Amps and voltage aren't the same thing.
Sure, and I think you also need to look at it from this perspective: in terms of a fuel pump, input voltage and operating conditions determine the current demanded, not the other way around. You could put a 0ga wire on the pump; if you're only supplying 12v, you'll only get pump performance equal to 12v. Your supply voltage ceiling will also be your pump's flow ceiling, and much of the gains observed are simply from raising voltage .75-1v, which is the observed voltage increase I found when eliminating the factory FPC and dropping to direct battery via relay. Yes, you absolutely have to supply it with enough current to maintain that voltage, but what I'm saying is that the output of the FPC is clearly below direct B+ voltage, IMHO, which is part of the issue, independent of voltage dropoff when demand is high.

http://www.deatschwerks.com/resource...fuel-pump-tech

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Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
DMM on PWM signal is about as good as a test light, you can tell there is voltage but your reading isnt always accurate.
I'm not so sure, in terms of fuel pump performance. Would love for someone with a scope and better equipment to prove me wrong
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:28 AM   #346
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Long story short - the ultimate issue is twofold: fuel pumps like voltage, and when fuel demand goes up, they like current. Supply a lot of both and we'll have world hunger solved.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:48 AM   #347
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This voltage and current talk seems more complicated than it needs to be.

There is resistance in the wires.

There is resistance in the fuel pump controller solid state switches (FETs probably)

Fuel pump draws a nominal current at 13.5V (DW300 is listed at 10-14A) and will draw less at lower voltage and pump less. So, less voltage drop before the pump is better.

Less resistance in the wire (larger diameter) equals less voltage drop across the length of wire.

Bypass the fuel pump controller, no more voltage drop for that device.

Did a quick search for wire resistance:
18 gauge: 10' at 14 amps gives ~0.9V drop
12 gauge: 10' at 14 amps gives ~0.22V drop

100% duty cycle means ON all the time so it would not matter if you measure with DMM or scope.
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:50 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
Long story short - the ultimate issue is twofold: fuel pumps like voltage, and when fuel demand goes up, they like current. Supply a lot of both and we'll have world hunger solved.
three words...or one big hyphenated word...boost-a-pump

Last edited by amalgrover; 01-03-2013 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:43 AM   #349
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So if i understand, bypass the FPC and run the pump 100%. I have -6 feed and -6 return anyway...plenty of flow in my circuit of fuel...first thought is heating up the fuel at 100%...or buying a FPC WITHOUT ANY VOLTAGE DROP. I bet that's impossible.
.4 volts is that detremental after the OEM FPC?

I guess so if we are talking about the difference between 11.5 and 14v making so much more volume of fuel.
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:37 AM   #350
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Here is some good info and reading regarding fuel pump tech.
http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Commo...elpumptech.pdf.
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