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Old 04-30-2012, 02:09 PM   #151
dux10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
what turbo?

the larger spring you run and the less delta you have between spring pressure, the less fidelity you have in wgdc control. if you're going to run 21-22 psi, you shouldnt run an 18psi spring. When you do that you get something like a 0.25% change in wgdc = 1psi change in boost. So that wasnt the fault of the tial...it was because of how it was setup.

Put a smaller spring combo in and you will get more fidelity in the wgdc mapping.
I was experimenting. lol I thought I mentioned it was a 20g...
and I understand the wgdc adjustment vs boost increase being a fine line (not as fine of a line as you stated, but I'm assuming that was just an example?). The EWG is actually off the car for the next few months and I'm debating what I wanna do.... I'm constantly wanting to try different things....
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:14 PM   #152
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It wasnt just an example....ive had cars that only needed 2% wgdc to hit 22.5psi with an 18psi spring combo.

Code:
RPM	MRP	WGDC
1918	0.79	2.35
1971	1.78	2.35
2047	2.76	2.35
2161	3.75	2.35
2227	4.94	2.35
2365	6.57	2.35
2497	9.05	2.35
2596	13.52	2.35
2838	20.89	2.35
3040	22.4	2.35
3272	21.81	2.35
3491	22.32	2.35
3744	22.43	2.35
4002	22.51	2.35
4206	22.45	2.35
4440	22.44	2.35
4628	22.21	2.35
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:58 PM   #153
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HOLY CRAP!!! that's insane!!!! lol I was worried that would be the case when I set it up that way, but I haven't had much of an issue.
I was running ~12-15% iirc tappering down to maybe 9% by redline...
The plan was to run wastegate pressure at 18psi everyday then 22psi when I wanted to have fun. Problem was, I was trying to run too much timing to make 18psi "fun for everyday" which kinda negated the reason behind it so I scrapped the idea....
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:31 AM   #154
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LOL @ RON.... Class!

Yeah that gives people the idea. I usually tell them that spring pressure should be Target Pressure / 2 and then a bit more....

EG. 20 psi / 2 = 10 psi and then a bit more so perhaps 12 psi... thereabouts. Gives plenty of WGDCs buffer and nice control.

Cheers,

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Old 05-02-2012, 11:58 AM   #155
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How come you recommend the AEM UEGO over the Innovate LC-1? I've heard mixed reviews for the AEM but nothing bad at all about the Innovate. They are similarly priced.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:41 PM   #156
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I thought I covered that but I guess I didn't.

Too many issues with units being doa, units burning out 02 sensors very quickly, issues with logging and the unit switching over to logging volts instead of afr, constant free air calibrations.

If you want to see more people with issues go onto innovates forums an read for about 5 min. Any problem you have they tell you "you don't have it grounded correctly"

Mike and I have gone through so many sensors and controllers it's ridiculous.

Uego is cheaper, $165 on eBay, easier to install, never requires a free air calibration, and has a longer time to failure.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:42 PM   #157
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Good enough reasoning for me. Thanks Ron!
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:55 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveMasterT View Post
How come you recommend the AEM UEGO over the Innovate LC-1? I've heard mixed reviews for the AEM but nothing bad at all about the Innovate. They are similarly priced.

INNOVATE:
1. The Innovate is super picky about how it is installed... Clean ground yadda yadda yadda... and there is like 27 wires puking out of the harness that go to various things.

2. The Innovate needs re-calibration frequently.

3. If you ever have a problem with your innovate, you will be told by customer service it is your fault for not installing it properly, See #1 ^

4. After installing it 7 times using 7 different ground including the engine block in several places. They will tell you it is still malfunctioning because of the wrong placement of the ground, and that you need a clean power supply. "It is being installed on a car, not in a labratory"

5. So you install it again with a "clean" power wire and it still malfunctions...

6. Then Magically Innovate will recall their products because of firmware issues and not say sorry for wasting your time.

7. Take LC1 and case of beer into garage, drink beer, light it on fire and pee on it should be the final steps in their install guide. Chalk this up as a $200 loss and move on with life.

AEM:

1. Is calibrated at the factory, Install is easy, three wires, mount gauge and go. Is not pickey about where wires are tapped into and costs $165 on ebay.

2. Never needs to be recalibrated.

3. Three years later you may need to replace the sensor with a $50 new one.


Ron beat me to it.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:59 PM   #159
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Shame the Innovate sucks so badly. It's got the best looking gauge. For something that is installed in the car, I wish the AEM wasn't so over stated.

Thanks guys.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:04 PM   #160
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i love the uego as a standalone setup. the things are cake to install compared to the lc-1 (not that the lc-1 is hard, but the uego is about as simple as it gets in terms of wideband installs). the lc-1's that i have dealt with have always had SOME sort of issue where they worked, but never 100% as advertised.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:35 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gnt2wrx View Post
INNOVATE:
1. The Innovate is super picky about how it is installed... Clean ground yadda yadda yadda... and there is like 27 wires puking out of the harness that go to various things.

2. The Innovate needs re-calibration frequently.

3. If you ever have a problem with your innovate, you will be told by customer service it is your fault for not installing it properly, See #1 ^

4. After installing it 7 times using 7 different ground including the engine block in several places. They will tell you it is still malfunctioning because of the wrong placement of the ground, and that you need a clean power supply. "It is being installed on a car, not in a labratory"

5. So you install it again with a "clean" power wire and it still malfunctions...

6. Then Magically Innovate will recall their products because of firmware issues and not say sorry for wasting your time.

7. Take LC1 and case of beer into garage, drink beer, light it on fire and pee on it should be the final steps in their install guide. Chalk this up as a $200 loss and move on with life.

AEM:

1. Is calibrated at the factory, Install is easy, three wires, mount gauge and go. Is not pickey about where wires are tapped into and costs $165 on ebay.

2. Never needs to be recalibrated.

3. Three years later you may need to replace the sensor with a $50 new one.


Ron beat me to it.

hahahaha I'm litterally laughing out loud at work and everybody wants to know what's so funny. lol
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:56 PM   #162
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Speaking of the AEM uego. I just picked one up for my 04 wrx. Where's a good place to ground it under the dash (haven't gotten a chance to get a look see)? Also, I picked up a fuse tap. Can an of you guys recommend which fuse location I can use?
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:38 PM   #163
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Guys,

I have been using the LC-1 for a VERY, VERY long time and it is very good! There's 6 or 7 wires depending on which version you have.

The only thing you should do is seperate the Analog and Power GROUND. Is that so difficult? No it isn't.... If you reckon it is I would hold my breath getting any proper wiring changes done on the car

LC-1 has a very fast refresh and is very reliable.

HOWEVER!! The LC-1 even today (WTF I have no idea....) still ships with the godforsaken Bosch 7057 sensor. This sensor works but craps itself really quick. Random lifetime at best... but expect no more than a few months.

When this rubbish piece is swapped for a Bosch 7200 sensor which is compatible then you should have a very comfy life using it. I have been running an LC-1 wired back into my Stand Alone system for over a year on the same Sensor and it was ACE. I went NTK recently ONLY because it freed up some inputs as the NTK heater, etc. is built in and has it's own dedicated inputs.

I am pondering of buying a TechEdge 2.9 kit which uses the LSU 4.9 sensor which should be even better especially at the rich end of the AFR scale. It isn't very expensive but the same things apply as to the LC-1. You MUST have seperate POWER and ANALOG grounds. TBH..... when you start working with Stand Alone ECUs this is common knowledge for many signals, etc. not just wbO2 equipment.

Don't scare yourself about all these arguments why one is better than another. Some people have good luck with stuff others don't. Take opinions with a pinch of salt as you should do with mine

LC-1 FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

Jasper.

BTW.... It is late and I'm full a beerz....but the brain still workz though
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:01 PM   #164
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Im not talking from just my personal experience with one unit (which is what most people who advocate the LC-1 are doing)....im speaking of experience of hundreds of units. I used to highly recommend the LC-1 because i never had issues with mine. But when you compare the lc-1 to a uego and compare all the things mentioned before (logging, free air cals, dead sensors, their customer support that simply supplies the "its not grounded correctly" answer to every problem) then there just isnt a reason to get an lc-1

if anyone wants to buy an innovate wideband they should get the MTX anyway. this is basically innovates version of the uego....it doesnt require free air calibrations and it reads faster than a uego.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:07 PM   #165
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:07 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Im not talking from just my personal experience with one unit (which is what most people who advocate the LC-1 are doing)....im speaking of experience of hundreds of units. I used to highly recommend the LC-1 because i never had issues with mine. But when you compare the lc-1 to a uego and compare all the things mentioned before (logging, free air cals, dead sensors, their customer support that simply supplies the "its not grounded correctly" answer to every problem) then there just isnt a reason to get an lc-1

if anyone wants to buy an innovate wideband they should get the MTX anyway. this is basically innovates version of the uego....it doesnt require free air calibrations and it reads faster than a uego.
So money aside, would you recommend the MTX over the UEGO? Or am I still going to have troubles with grounds and other oddities?

I see that they are similarly priced to the UEGO in various places I just looked.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:08 PM   #167
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I dont have any personal experience with the mtx. i boycotted innovate before it came out. I went through too many sensors and lc-1 and lm-2 controllers and just had enough.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:12 PM   #168
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I just looked up some reviews of the MTX and there are pretty much the same problems you described with the LC-1. I guess I'll just go with the UEGO.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:14 PM   #169
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I trust what you're saying RON. I unfortunately do not have the luxury of going through or using that many units. I'm sure you have your arguments and that's fair. However we are either geniuses or VERY, VERY lucky not having problems with our LC-1s eh?

(Pun intended)

I want to get myself a TechEdge unit and wire it up as it should and see how reliable and accurate those LSU4.9 sensors are..... Keep ya posted!

Cheers,

Jasper.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:17 PM   #170
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On a side not though.... RON please advise WHICH sensors you went through by the boatload.... was it the 7057 or the 7200...??

Cheers,

Jasper.
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Old 05-02-2012, 03:35 PM   #171
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Whichever ones innovate supplies. I got all my replacement sensors through them. My issue isn't really with having to replace the sensors though, it's all the other bs. Controllers dying, logging issue with rr where it constantly blue screened my comp when it was hooked up, also hooking to the laptop would cause it to constantly change fuel types on its own and/or make it log in volts and all these things required free air calibrations...so jacking up the car unscrewing the unit...cal...reinstall.

And my neighbor went through the same situation jake described above of grounding it a million different ways before innovate finally allowed an rma. And my other room mates arrived dead. And my partner mike has had all the same issues too.
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Old 05-02-2012, 05:57 PM   #172
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i just recently went through a situation where a car that had an lc-1 had an issue where the gauge was reading 2 af points lean (16.7 instead of 14.7 at idle and 13.0 instead of 11.0 at WOT), but if you plugged in to a laptop and logged the sensor, it would read perfectly. my thoughts were that it had to be a wiring issue causing higher resistance than normal on the wires going to the gauge, but after checking all wires and grounds, everything looks perfect. the gauge works fine, but just reads 2 points leaner than it really is.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:41 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiveMasterT View Post
So money aside, would you recommend the MTX over the UEGO? Or am I still going to have troubles with grounds and other oddities?

I see that they are similarly priced to the UEGO in various places I just looked.

Zeitronix FTW here !
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:05 PM   #174
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Here's an off topic question, please forgive me, but do you have to re-tune when swapping CBE exhaust systems? Ex.- HKS Hi-Power to Cobb, or Invidia, etc. (Both on catted, and catless vehicles)? Thanks- Timmy
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:14 PM   #175
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see post 5

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...11&postcount=5

a cbe is one of those "you dont need a retune....but you should at least log and check it to make sure all is in order"

if for some reason the new cbe is more restrictive it can cause a higher back pressure and may induce knock.
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