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Old 12-14-2011, 12:31 AM   #1
WRX_20II
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Default Couple questions on AP, Stage 1 93 octane map and Data Log - 2011 WRX

Hey guys! Picking up a like new (supposedly never used) AP this weekend. I have zero mods and will just be doing the Stage 1 93 octane map. I have always had my cars tuned by professionals in the past so a PnP "do it yourself" tune is new to me.

Can I be confident in just going with the Stage 1 93 octane map without logging or making adjustments? (live in SC if that helps, not sure if certain areas are prone to be more problematic due to variances.)

And I wanted to do this before I pay the guy to ensure the device truly does work without any flaws of course. How long would this process take?

Appreciate it! Looking forward to seeing the difference and getting rid of that lean stock tune
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Last edited by WRX_20II; 12-16-2011 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:32 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by WRX_20II View Post
Hey guys! Picking up a like new (supposedly never used) AP this weekend. I have zero mods and will just be doing the Stage 1 93 octane map. I have always had my cars tuned by professionals in the past so a PnP "do it yourself" tune is new to me.

Can I be confident in just going with the Stage 1 93 octane map without logging or making adjustments? (live in SC if that helps, not sure if certain areas are prone to be more problematic due to variances.)

And I wanted to do this before I pay the guy to ensure the device truly does work without any flaws of course. How long would this process take?

Appreciate it! Looking forward to seeing the difference and getting rid of that lean stock tune
Yes, you can be confident in the off-the-shelf map as long as you use good gas, the car gets proper maintenance, and your modifications are supported by the map. But, logging is really easy with the AccessPORT, so it is good to get some runs in there to see how things look. Upload the log to google docs, set the permissions to public, and then post a link here and we can take a look. Check out our logging video:

With the AccessPORT, you can also get a custom tune from any shop that uses our AccessTUNER software.


Bill
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:20 PM   #3
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Thanks Bill! I"ll put 50 or more miles on it once flashed and then do a 3rd gear pull for a proper log and post it up for you guys to verify all checks out
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:18 PM   #4
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Quick question Bill, I have put 50 miles since flashed (to Stage 1 93 octane map). Is it safe to a full third gear pull now for logging? I know you want to give the ECU time to relearn so I was just curious if this time allotment was enough? Thanks! Will post up the log once I get the green light =)
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:47 PM   #5
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I may be speaking out of place but from my past experience with other non-subaru vehicles, the ecu "learning" period would take place over three heat cycles. It wasn't really mileage specific.

As in, turn car on, warm up drive around until its at operating temperature for a while, turn car off. Wait until engine is cold again, turn car on, temp gauge should be cold, warm up, drive around again.

An expert can correct if this doesn't apply to Subarus.
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Old 12-15-2011, 11:19 PM   #6
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I may be speaking out of place but from my past experience with other non-subaru vehicles, the ecu "learning" period would take place over three heat cycles. It wasn't really mileage specific.

As in, turn car on, warm up drive around until its at operating temperature for a while, turn car off. Wait until engine is cold again, turn car on, temp gauge should be cold, warm up, drive around again.

An expert can correct if this doesn't apply to Subarus.
That's interesting, can anyone verify this or give their thoughts as well?
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:16 AM   #7
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Did a very short pull for a quick log tonight after putting 75 miles on after the flash. This one was my first WOT pull. Let me know what you guys think. I will do more tomorrow starting from 2500rpms. In the meantime let me know if everything is looking if you can...thanks!!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...W04Tk0tQVNucHc
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Yes, you can be confident in the off-the-shelf map as long as you use good gas, the car gets proper maintenance, and your modifications are supported by the map. But, logging is really easy with the AccessPORT, so it is good to get some runs in there to see how things look. Upload the log to google docs, set the permissions to public, and then post a link here and we can take a look. Check out our logging video:
AskCOBB - Subaru Data Logging - YouTube

With the AccessPORT, you can also get a custom tune from any shop that uses our AccessTUNER software.


Bill
The boost meter on live data hit 16.2 at one time but the logs don't show that. If you could check this log out Bill I would greatly appreciate it! It feels amazing and is a huge leap in terms of pull and smoothness over the stock tune...love it =)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WdSdW5mODZqeHc
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:40 AM   #9
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The boost meter on live data hit 16.2 at one time but the logs don't show that. If you could check this log out Bill I would greatly appreciate it! It feels amazing and is a huge leap in terms of pull and smoothness over the stock tune...love it =)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WdSdW5mODZqeHc
Logs looks good. You are underboosting some. You could download and reflash the high wastegate (HWG) from our cobbtuning.com site. This will get you closer to your target and probably give you a little more performance. Be sure to take logs if you decide to flash the HWG map.

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Old 12-16-2011, 11:34 AM   #10
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Ok Bill, here I updated to the HWG map (did it in realtime and not reflash...what's the difference?)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1MySEYxUDRKWHc

It felt great...even more kick. I am now hitting over 16psi, please verify all is well in the most current log here. It's my DD so it's gotta be reliable as well. Will the colder temps cause any issues as winter approaches with this HWG map?

Thank you so much and I already have a few guys lined up to order AP's off my experience so far
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:43 AM   #11
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Ok Bill, here I updated to the HWG map (did it in realtime and not reflash...what's the difference?)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1MySEYxUDRKWHc

It felt great...even more kick. I am now hitting over 16psi, please verify all is well in the most current log here. It's my DD so it's gotta be reliable as well. Will the colder temps cause any issues as winter approaches with this HWG map?

Thank you so much and I already have a few guys lined up to order AP's off my experience so far
Thanks for recommending our product!

The HWG map did the trick. Everything looks good. Real-time maps only change 10 or so of the most important tables and those changes will remain until you disconnect the car's battery, reflash a map or reset the ECU (via AP). So, real-time maps are good for temporary changes like valet, anti-theft, etc. You should always reflash the map that is most appropriate for your mods and situation (it will change all tables that are designated to be changed in the map, not just the 10 tables). That is, what you will be running long-term should be reflashed. A reflash is permanent until you reflash again or you flash a real-time map which will temporarily override the 10 or so tables. I would go ahead and reflash the HWG map in your case.

Bill
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:57 AM   #12
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Thanks for recommending our product!

The HWG map did the trick. Everything looks good. Real-time maps only change 10 or so of the most important tables and those changes will remain until you disconnect the car's battery, reflash a map or reset the ECU (via AP). So, real-time maps are good for temporary changes like valet, anti-theft, etc. You should always reflash the map that is most appropriate for your mods and situation (it will change all tables that are designated to be changed in the map, not just the 10 tables). That is, what you will be running long-term should be reflashed. A reflash is permanent until you reflash again or you flash a real-time map which will temporarily override the 10 or so tables. I would go ahead and reflash the HWG map in your case.

Bill
Awesome Bill, thanks! Glad this map works well and my log looks good. I will reflash it before I head out for work tonight. Do I need to break it in slowly for 50 miles again with the new reflash or can I drive normally using the entire powerband at times?

My buddy has an Evo X and is eager to get his now, ha. I'm happy to spread the word...it really woke the car up and is so much smoother than stock.

Lastly, I wanna double check that you think this map will be fine with the cold winter temps around the corner (I'm in SC)? I have heard this is typically when overboosting occurs. Appreciate your knowledge and products...thanks Bill!!
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:50 PM   #13
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Awesome Bill, thanks! Glad this map works well and my log looks good. I will reflash it before I head out for work tonight. Do I need to break it in slowly for 50 miles again with the new reflash or can I drive normally using the entire powerband at times?

My buddy has an Evo X and is eager to get his now, ha. I'm happy to spread the word...it really woke the car up and is so much smoother than stock.

Lastly, I wanna double check that you think this map will be fine with the cold winter temps around the corner (I'm in SC)? I have heard this is typically when overboosting occurs. Appreciate your knowledge and products...thanks Bill!!
No need to drive differently after you reflash a map. There's some learning that is cleared by the ECU after a map reflash, but, if you notice this at all, it will just feel a tad sluggish than normal for a short period of driving after the reflash until everything is learned again.

Colder outside temps can possibly cause you to overboost - just depends on a number of factors, including the car. On a cold day, go ahead and take a log and we can take a look at it. Remember, higher gears are more prone to overboost, so try to downshift if you are going wide open throttle in, say, 5th, if it is appropriate to so.

Bill
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Old 12-16-2011, 06:54 PM   #14
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No need to drive differently after you reflash a map. There's some learning that is cleared by the ECU after a map reflash, but, if you notice this at all, it will just feel a tad sluggish than normal for a short period of driving after the reflash until everything is learned again.

Colder outside temps can possibly cause you to overboost - just depends on a number of factors, including the car. On a cold day, go ahead and take a log and we can take a look at it. Remember, higher gears are more prone to overboost, so try to downshift if you are going wide open throttle in, say, 5th, if it is appropriate to so.

Bill
Thanks Bill, I will do another log this weekend, temps should be in low 30's at night so we'll see how it holds. Will post up asap Appreciate the help!
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:33 AM   #15
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No need to drive differently after you reflash a map. There's some learning that is cleared by the ECU after a map reflash, but, if you notice this at all, it will just feel a tad sluggish than normal for a short period of driving after the reflash until everything is learned again.

Colder outside temps can possibly cause you to overboost - just depends on a number of factors, including the car. On a cold day, go ahead and take a log and we can take a look at it. Remember, higher gears are more prone to overboost, so try to downshift if you are going wide open throttle in, say, 5th, if it is appropriate to so.

Bill
Hi Bill, not quite cold yet but I logged two runs this evening when it was 55 degrees out. I hit 17.49 psi on my first run, maybe the ECU is still adjusting. Is this pushing it for the Stage 1 93 octane HWG map? My second map is better and third run this morning (49 degrees out) was better yet.

This weekend it is dipping into the thirties so I will definitely log two more runs to see if the boost fluctuates at all. Let me know if it would be wise to switch back to the NWG map or if the third log is an indication that the map is settling in. I just want to ensure i'm running on a safe reliable map...car still feels amazing btw Thanks for your continued help, I'd be lost looking at these logs without it!

First log -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Ug0eW01S3ZkVGc


Second log -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...0FlRGw2SjRPbXc


Third and most current log - (Note: 100% Fuel pump duty, is this ok? And are the AFR readings accurate at 11.03 at WOT?)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...UxfZHVWLVUwX3c

Last edited by WRX_20II; 12-17-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:22 AM   #16
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I've been lurking for quite some time on this forum, and I have the same questions as to whether or not my current setup is well. Don't want to hijack, but thanks for the insight and comparison against my current tune!
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Old 12-18-2011, 03:45 AM   #17
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I've been lurking for quite some time on this forum, and I have the same questions as to whether or not my current setup is well. Don't want to hijack, but thanks for the insight and comparison against my current tune!
No problem man! The more feedback the better. I hit 17.7psi tonight (doing live data monitoring) and I'm pretty sure that's just slightly outside the threshold that Cobb recommends. Here is a log I just recorded, its 33 degrees out so this should be a good test for how the map will play out this winter. Looking forward to hearing from Bill on this and whether or not I can confidently keep the HWG version of the Stage 1 93 octane map. Feel free to report back in with your findings

Data log 13: "had some "Feedback Knock" -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nhndmJ0VzNsN1E

Data log 15:Changed back to Stage 1 93 octane map NWG "Not quite hitting target boost but zero knock reported" -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lpoZUQwSklTVEE
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:57 PM   #18
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No problem man! The more feedback the better. I hit 17.7psi tonight (doing live data monitoring) and I'm pretty sure that's just slightly outside the threshold that Cobb recommends. Here is a log I just recorded, its 33 degrees out so this should be a good test for how the map will play out this winter. Looking forward to hearing from Bill on this and whether or not I can confidently keep the HWG version of the Stage 1 93 octane map. Feel free to report back in with your findings

Data log 13: "had some "Feedback Knock" -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nhndmJ0VzNsN1E

Data log 15:Changed back to Stage 1 93 octane map NWG "Not quite hitting target boost but zero knock reported" -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lpoZUQwSklTVEE
When I ordered my AP from Perrin, I received a Perrin Stage 1 93 Map from them. As of now, All the big things (AF Learning, DAM, Fine Knock Learning, Feedback Knock Correction) appear to be fine except for my low boost. Target is 16.5 but I hit max of 13.62 according to my logs. I never actually flashed to Stage 1 Cobb OTS 93. Thinking I might try that and see if I reach closer to target boost. If not, I'll probably either contact Perrin or go with the HWG Stage 1 like you did.
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:13 PM   #19
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No problem man! The more feedback the better. I hit 17.7psi tonight (doing live data monitoring) and I'm pretty sure that's just slightly outside the threshold that Cobb recommends. Here is a log I just recorded, its 33 degrees out so this should be a good test for how the map will play out this winter. Looking forward to hearing from Bill on this and whether or not I can confidently keep the HWG version of the Stage 1 93 octane map. Feel free to report back in with your findings

Data log 13: "had some "Feedback Knock" -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nhndmJ0VzNsN1E

Data log 15:Changed back to Stage 1 93 octane map NWG "Not quite hitting target boost but zero knock reported" -

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...lpoZUQwSklTVEE
The first set of logs looks good. The second set (first log) has some odd multiple counts of feedback knock correction, but that looks like noise (only the first -1.4 and -4.2 is the actual perceived knock events, which is before the WOT run, with the rest of it just the ECU holding the value and then ramping back to zero).

You are kind of on the borderline as far as boost control, with the cold temps making it a little worse. I would go ahead and reflash the NWG for now. When things warm up next spring, you can try the HWG map again.

Fuel pump duty only has 4 states - 0, 33, 66, and 100% and 100% under higher load in normal. The "AF Sensor Ratio 1" is based on the front o2 sensor and it not very accurate under any appreciable boost. It is also pegged at 11:1 on the rich side, no matter how rich you really are (so it is normal to see that at WOT).

Hope that helps!

Bill
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:33 PM   #20
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The first set of logs looks good. The second set (first log) has some odd multiple counts of feedback knock correction, but that looks like noise (only the first -1.4 and -4.2 is the actual perceived knock events, which is before the WOT run, with the rest of it just the ECU holding the value and then ramping back to zero).

You are kind of on the borderline as far as boost control, with the cold temps making it a little worse. I would go ahead and reflash the NWG for now. When things warm up next spring, you can try the HWG map again.

Fuel pump duty only has 4 states - 0, 33, 66, and 100% and 100% under higher load in normal. The "AF Sensor Ratio 1" is based on the front o2 sensor and it not very accurate under any appreciable boost. It is also pegged at 11:1 on the rich side, no matter how rich you really are (so it is normal to see that at WOT).

Hope that helps!

Bill
Thanks Bill, I figured that was pushing it. I'll stay with the NWG map for now with these colder temps and flash back to the HWG version in Spring as you suggested. As always I appreciate your informative responses and I am definitely enjoying the AP =)
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Old 12-18-2011, 01:38 PM   #21
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When I ordered my AP from Perrin, I received a Perrin Stage 1 93 Map from them. As of now, All the big things (AF Learning, DAM, Fine Knock Learning, Feedback Knock Correction) appear to be fine except for my low boost. Target is 16.5 but I hit max of 13.62 according to my logs. I never actually flashed to Stage 1 Cobb OTS 93. Thinking I might try that and see if I reach closer to target boost. If not, I'll probably either contact Perrin or go with the HWG Stage 1 like you did.
Give Cobb's map a try, I am hitting right at 16 psi with the colder temps on their NWG map so it's very close to TB. When Spring arrives I'll try the HWG map again and see if it can level out around 16.5-8. Bill is great and has answered all my questions. Their support is definitely top notch and I'm very impressed with the AP unit so far The stage 1 93 octane map is a great kick in performance from the lean stock tune Let me know how it fairs.
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