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Old 12-04-2009, 02:13 AM   #1
vincephan_7
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Default The RWD Conversion Thread: Theory and Discussion

First and foremost, I created this thread in hopes of it turning into a great source of information for anyone that wants to know more about RWD conversions and to discuss the topic in detail without having to look too hard.

There are quite a few RWD conversion threads here on nasioc, but all of them seem to be dense in discussion and many problems that come from this type of conversion are left unasked and unquestioned.


RWD Subaru's have become a lot more popular over the last few months. We now see many RWD subies competing in drift competitions, even a number of our members have converted their own subaru into rwd, so i thought it would be a good idea to get a thread together so that people could share with the community of their opinions, ideas, etc.

So i was thinking, since a RWD subie would no longer need it's front axles, would the removal of the axles allow us to reposition the engine closer to the firewall/lower towards the ground in order to help improve the handling dynamics of the car?

Perhaps new motor mounts or a new subframe would allow us to position our boxer engines at a more optimal place. If we could push back and lower our already low COG boxer engines, a RWD subaru could easily become one of the better balanced RWD cars out there,

I've read from another RWD conversion thread here on nasioc that a rx-7 transmission was once mated to our boxer engine without too much work. does anyone have more information on this?

AWD and FWD cars handle quite similarly, but to my understanding, RWD cars do not. Once a subaru is converted to RWD, how does one go about in taking care of its suspension? For example, a coilover designed for a AWD subaru will not work well on a RWD subaru. How do we deal with this?

Our rearend's are not capable of handling the type of power we will be putting down. Which rear-ends would be easy to swap in? How have drift teams been able to remedy this problem and is their solution replicable for the average car enthusiast?

These are just some questions I have pertaining to RWD subarus and i hope that through this thread, these questions and many others will eventually be answer.
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Old 12-04-2009, 05:21 PM   #2
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As a rwd wrx owner/driver i guess i can help out a lil bit. And I have some questions i havent been able to find answers to too. First off the coilover setups for awd subys work just fine for a rwd suby, at least with the stock transmission (dunno how another transmission would effect weight balance). on my car I am running the Stance gr+pro ssd coilovers with 12k/10k springs front/rear and Hotchkiss comp sway bars and end links. I just messed around with my damper settings a bit. Corner entry isnt too much different, just like everything else once you go rwd its a bit more sideways Sway bars are an area that needs a lil adjustment though. Compared to my previous set up I had to soften up the rear a notch on my rear sway bar and softened my front dampers a coupla clicks.

Asfor moving the engine back and down, that might be a lil problem for clearance, unless u are running alot closer to stock ride hight than I am. Then again I usually run my cars alot lower than most subaru owners think is sane.

The biggest problem I have run into so far is the tinly stock r160 rear diff in the wrx. It just sucks. Been looking into upgrades for that myself and so far the most reliable sounding option is a custome fabricated r200 upgrade. There have been a couple done on this site already and for everyone it seems to have been a hassle since you need to order custome axles and driveshaft. Not to mention modifying the rear subframe to get it to fit. Unfortunately I havent been able to get an answer to see how well the r180 holds up with the dss conversion axles, but I am guessing the r180 is just gonna be another grenade like the r160. at least for the abuse of drifting that is. I heard that Stephen Verdier (or however his name is spelled ) was running the r180 but never got an answer from him personally. And Gruppe S are being too secretive about their setup (ie. they dont wanna help anyone else cause they are afraid they might give away some advantage ).

As for the rx7 trans i have heard about as much as the op.... not much. cant find anyone who has done it or seen it done, just rumors.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:57 PM   #3
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I have a R200 from an Infinity J30. Runs a 3.916FD that I was wanting to use with my 6spd. The difference is little. I have axles too!! Make measurements in the back, and start chopping away and making your rear subframe!
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racer555 View Post
First off the coilover setups for awd subys work just fine for a rwd suby, at least with the stock transmission (dunno how another transmission would effect weight balance). Corner entry isnt too much different, just like everything else once you go rwd its a bit more sideways Sway bars are an area that needs a lil adjustment though. Compared to my previous set up I had to soften up the rear a notch on my rear sway bar and softened my front dampers a coupla clicks.
So does your car drive like a well engineered RWD vehicle, or does it feel a bit "off" compared to real (for the lack of a better term) RWD vehicles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer555 View Post

Asfor moving the engine back and down, that might be a lil problem for clearance, unless u are running alot closer to stock ride hight than I am. Then again I usually run my cars alot lower than most subaru owners think is sane.
Hmm. I figured that the removal of the front axles would have probably allowed for better engine placement if one might want to move the engine to a better position. I guess not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racer555 View Post

The biggest problem I have run into so far is the tinly stock r160 rear diff in the wrx. It just sucks. Been looking into upgrades for that myself and so far the most reliable sounding option is a custome fabricated r200 upgrade. There have been a couple done on this site already and for everyone it seems to have been a hassle since you need to order custome axles and driveshaft. Not to mention modifying the rear subframe to get it to fit. Unfortunately I havent been able to get an answer to see how well the r180 holds up with the dss conversion axles, but I am guessing the r180 is just gonna be another grenade like the r160. at least for the abuse of drifting that is. I heard that Stephen Verdier (or however his name is spelled ) was running the r180 but never got an answer from him personally. And Gruppe S are being too secretive about their setup (ie. they dont wanna help anyone else cause they are afraid they might give away some advantage ).
Perhaps, Gruppe-S might be running with a RWD transmission mated to the boxer engine. I'm surprised that not too many people go with a RWD transmission when they convert their subies into RWD. an appropriate RWD tranny would be able to hold more power and still be more reliable.

The rear-end is one of the biggest problems, and right now you kinda gotta send it a fabricator/shop or whip up something in your garage in order to implant another rear-end in. (from what i've heard)

Subaru's are getting a lot cheaper now. I've seen bugeyes go for 7-10k pretty consistently. If we're lucky, a shop might created a "bolt-on" solution in which you buy their kit and source your own r180/r200 rear-end and just slap it on your rear. A RWD tranny/boxer mounting kit might be a good idea too. Seeing as how subaru's are getting cheaper and more people are willing to mod theirs. This isnt too far-fetched.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuJi K View Post
I have a R200 from an Infinity J30. Runs a 3.916FD that I was wanting to use with my 6spd. The difference is little. I have axles too!! Make measurements in the back, and start chopping away and making your rear subframe!
how hard was it for you to fit the r200 back there? Do you think its easy enough for the average car enthusiast to do this in their garage?
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Old 12-10-2009, 12:06 AM   #5
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i use the stock sti r180 in my drift car. the car has 500whp and the diff is olding so far. i also use oem sti axle and drive shaft everything is olding.

moving the engine back will be good but really hard if you don't go to a drysump system. the oil pan will hit the crossmember.
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Old 12-11-2009, 01:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verdier View Post
i use the stock sti r180 in my drift car. the car has 500whp and the diff is olding so far. i also use oem sti axle and drive shaft everything is olding.

moving the engine back will be good but really hard if you don't go to a drysump system. the oil pan will hit the crossmember.
Thats good to hear. Makes upgrading my poor lil r160 a bit easier
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:34 PM   #7
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Having not been RWD in the last 2.5 years or so...I was on an R180 after grenading several R160's and it held up fine. I switched back to AWD after grenading the trans and going with a 6-spd.

It was fun but also rather pointless as you can't fit enough rubber under a subie's fenderes...well, I guess it'll work for drifting.
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Old 12-12-2009, 12:43 AM   #8
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There was a lot more posts on this thread a few days ago that appear to be gone now, there was a lot more info.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix View Post
There was a lot more posts on this thread a few days ago that appear to be gone now, there was a lot more info.
Yeah, Nasioc experienced a freak crash a few days ago and had to revert back to stored files back on Sunday.

Luckily, I still remember all of the information that was posted and will write a mega post as soon as I get some free time.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:56 AM   #10
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I figured I'd start posting today...

Before the server was reset, many points were brought up to this discussion.

1) The idea of relocating the engine closer to the firewall and lower to the ground was suggested due to the fact the removal of the front axles was now permitted if one were to convert to RWD.

A lower CoG and better weight distribution make for a better handling vehicle. The problem we run into when trying to relocate the engine is the fact that the subframe will not clear the current oil-pan as the stock oil-pan already sits pretty low. First, one would have to fabricate either a new subframe or a dry sump system, perhaps, in the worst case scenerio, both of these items might need to be custom fabricated.

Assuming that one decides to go this route and fabricates a new subframe and/or a dry sump system, the next potential problem would be the engine accessories and all those other items cluttered in the engine bay. With the engine in a new position, all these other items might need to be removed or relocated. For instance, a battery relocation to the trunk. (although the battery would not be something that would need attention)

Another problem that comes with engine relocation is the fact your off the shelf turbo kit, intercooler kit, intake, headers, etc, may no longer fit. The diameter of the pipes may be incorrect for the new engine position, headers may not clear certain accessories, etc. In conclusion, engine relocation may open up a can of worms RWD Subaru enthusiasts are not ready for.

2) The rear differential was confirmed as a dire problem needing a solution. The stock R160 will not hold for anything more than some spirited driving. A new differential would definitely be needed.

Some people suggested running an R200. The R200's are easily found in some late model Nissan's as well as a few other cars. These rear-ends can be picked up at a local junkyard for under 1000 dollars, however, there are no off the shelf axles or mounting kits that will allow you to simply bolt on an R200. The heavier R200 would also help weight distribution by bringing more weight to the rear of the vehicle.

A much more feasable rear-end solution would be the R180 already found in some JDM models of Subarus. These rear-ends have been bolted onto numerous USDM Subaru cars without much hassle for quite some time now. The swap is well-documented and should prove to be a better alternative in a solution to finding a rear-end that can handle the added stress.

3) Many people who have already converted their cars into RWD have experienced a similar outcome when stepping on the gas pedal - wheel spin.. lots of it. Getting power to the ground is a problem.

Subarus were designed from the ground up as AWD cars, some of them were designed to also be FWD. Subaru, to my knowledge, has not built a RWD vehicle. All the research and development that went into our car, especially the suspension geometry, was meant for an AWD vehicle. Turning a Subaru into RWD means that the R&D already done will no longer suffice. The suspension geometry and suspension parts are no longer suited for the new driveline.

AWD cars and FWD cars handle quite similarly, however, RWD cars do not. The handling dynamics are vastly more different than AWD/FWD therefore, our average off the shelf coilovers, as well as other suspension parts, may not actually be much of an "upgrade". The spring rates on these coilovers are inappropriate for a RWD car, therefore, RWD-specific coilovers have been suggested as a solution for getting power to the ground as well as help with the car's new handling characteristics. Custom sway bars are also another good solution, fortunately, Gruppe-S has already created their own sway bars which they also happen to use on their competition drift STi.

Last but not least, a proper suspension alignment should be able to set the RWD Subaru off just right. With the proper tuning in toe, caster, and camber, the car should behave decently, if not well.

4) Most Subaru transmissions will not be able to handle the added stress associated with running high power numbers through the rear wheels. It was suggested that perhaps a proper RWD transmission could be used in conjunction with our boxer through the addition of an adapter plate.

There are many RWD transmissions out there that are strong enough to handle the stress in a built RWD Subaru. For instance, the R154 from the MKIII Supra can hold up to around 700 horsepower and can be found for around 1,000 dollars. Quite cheap for its potency. Other notable RWD transmissions include the T56, which comes in many GM-model performance cars that come with an LS series engine. These transmissions are close to bullet-proof and can handle quite a lot of power. The transmissions that come in the 300ZX Turbo as well as the 350Z/G35 should also be considered. These transmission will be able to handle more power than a rebuilt 6-speed Subaru unit as well as being much, much cheaper.

There are currently no RWD Subaru's running around with a non-Subaru RWD transmission. There are many advantages with running a RWD specific transmission but there are currently no flywheel combos discovered/adapter plates created in order to mate any of the above listed transmissions (or any other RWD transmissions for that matter), into a boxer engine.
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Old 12-12-2009, 01:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincephan_7 View Post
There are currently no RWD Subaru's running around with a non-Subaru RWD transmission. There are many advantages with running a RWD specific transmission but there are currently no flywheel combos discovered/adapter plates created in order to mate any of the above listed transmissions (or any other RWD transmissions for that matter), into a boxer engine.

MRanlet was modifying a Z33 transmission to weld to a cut sube bell housing.






I recommend taking a look at his build, he has some good ideas for rwd subarus.

http://www.sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2287
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Old 12-12-2009, 03:12 PM   #12
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I will definitely take a look at that. Thank you for your post.

So.. I checked out the thread that Victrix sent posted above. If you guys want to view the thread, you must register in order to see it; trust me, it is well worth the trouble.

The guy successfully mated a Z33 transmission onto his Phase 1 Ej25 block, if i recall correctly, however, he had to do a lot of cutting and welding.

He was also able to fit in a R200 rear-end and use J30 Nissan rear-brakes by fabricating his own custom axles. He didn't have pictures of this process, however.

The guy knows what he's doing and although he was able to mate the new transmission onto his motor as well as adapting an R200 rear-end onto his car, replicating his build might be harder for people who are scared of fabrication, and the way he did it involved A LOT of fabrication.

For the cleanest installation, an adapter plate would be the most desirable.



This is an adapter plate made by Kennedy Engineering that is capable of mating many different engines onto a Porsche transmission. There are many adapter plates flying around in the aftermarket made for different transmission+engine combos. A Subaru solution, however, has not been made.

Last edited by vincephan_7; 12-12-2009 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 12-21-2009, 10:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vincephan_7 View Post
I figured I'd start posting today...

Before the server was reset, many points were brought up to this discussion.

1) The idea of relocating the engine closer to the firewall and lower to the ground was suggested due to the fact the removal of the front axles was now permitted if one were to convert to RWD.

A lower CoG and better weight distribution make for a better handling vehicle. The problem we run into when trying to relocate the engine is the fact that the subframe will not clear the current oil-pan as the stock oil-pan already sits pretty low. First, one would have to fabricate either a new subframe or a dry sump system, perhaps, in the worst case scenerio, both of these items might need to be custom fabricated.

Assuming that one decides to go this route and fabricates a new subframe and/or a dry sump system, the next potential problem would be the engine accessories and all those other items cluttered in the engine bay. With the engine in a new position, all these other items might need to be removed or relocated. For instance, a battery relocation to the trunk. (although the battery would not be something that would need attention)

Another problem that comes with engine relocation is the fact your off the shelf turbo kit, intercooler kit, intake, headers, etc, may no longer fit. The diameter of the pipes may be incorrect for the new engine position, headers may not clear certain accessories, etc. In conclusion, engine relocation may open up a can of worms RWD Subaru enthusiasts are not ready for.

Would removing as much weight from in front of the engine as possible and maybe adding some kind of ballast behind the strut towers help at all or is this uneccessary planning?
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJSkola View Post
Would removing as much weight from in front of the engine as possible and maybe adding some kind of ballast behind the strut towers help at all or is this uneccessary planning?
The issue isn't as much of weight in front of the engine....it's more of the stock location of the engine. Almost all of that weight is forward of the front wheel centerline. That is not good for balance and thus, handling.

Jay
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:01 AM   #15
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Let's bump this. Any other RWD subies out there?
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:22 AM   #16
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as far as the trans adapter... this guy is makeing them.
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org
used to adapt a Toyota W series transmission, to an EJ engine.

Here is a few pics of my RWD subaru. it is using a 05 WRX trans with the center diff spooled so it only uses the front axles. dont know how much power it will hold, but its been ok for now...

running a 94 SVX EG33 with custom mounted Eaton M90 Supercharger






more information at http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/...d.php?t=134714

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Old 11-27-2012, 03:46 AM   #17
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^DOPEEE!!!!

Quick question though, why would he make adapters for W series toyota trannys? I heard those are super weak. Especially the W58. I know that 2jz motors come with w58's I believe and everyone I know tosses those out and swaps for a r154 trannys because they're much stronger.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:58 AM   #18
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:07 PM   #19
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I wish that was in English
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:43 PM   #20
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Google translate lithuanian to english. translation is terible, but you'll get the idea.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:07 PM   #21
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:07 PM   #22
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iam contemplating rwd using my 5spd w/ra gear set, ppg rwd spool, and probably an r180.

one question i have is will i be able to go to a staggered set up on the tires?
i would want wider(stickier) tires in the back but im thinking i have to keep the tire heights very close to keep the abs working.right?
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:38 PM   #23
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^You will be able to run a staggered setup.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:12 AM   #24
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would a rwd impreza get better mpg do to less drivetrain loss?
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Old 12-09-2012, 01:04 AM   #25
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just got done going rwd and all i can say is omg lol

def see a r180 in my near future
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