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Old 12-06-2012, 12:11 AM   #2526
stevehnm
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post
Didn't you hear, the epa accounts for all that. They account for the extra weight, they account for their proprietary blend of fuel, even awd is in those numbers. Heh I think they even account for lack of driving skill and human error. No matter what this car should be able to get 36mpg under all highway driving, blah blah blah
It's simple. Go to the EPA site and pick a vehicle that offers an AWD option and a 2wd option. Make sure you get the same engine and transmission. If flyboy and buddies are right, they will be listed the same. They aren't. Think about it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:43 AM   #2527
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While I have only had my UltraGauge for a few days at this point I have some interesting numbers for y'all. First off, I have already calibrated the UG Odometer over a ~170 mile trip using my TomTom and my iPhone both of which are accurate to .01 miles. Then I did an additional 156 miles to calibrate the UG's fuel usage gauge which was then followed up by a 54 mile trip to verify the accuracy of the both gauges.

This morning I watched the fuel usage gauge that resets every time I start the car and I watched my car burn .21 Gallons in the first 1.90 miles(averaging 41 MPH). The car then proceeded to burn an additional .74 Gallons over the next 30.38 miles (averaging 64 MPH).

These numbers are significant because for my commute I got an average of 33.98 MPG but if you take out that warm-up period I would have gotten 41.05 MPG. Also that means that if my daily commute was 47.9 miles I would average 36.01 MPG.

In summary, the CVT has a warm-up period ranging from 1.7 to 2.1 miles depending on the temperature of the transmission. It will try to hold at or above 2K RPM for the entire warm-up period. So to minimize the impact on your FE try to get up to 45-50 MPH for for the initial warm-up period and then proceed to drive normally. Also combine your trips as much as possible because every time you let the car cool down for extended periods of time you are almost guaranteed to burn 1/5 of a gallon on your next trip.
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Old 12-06-2012, 07:54 AM   #2528
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Originally Posted by IveBeenRued View Post
While I have only had my UltraGauge for a few days at this point I have some interesting numbers for y'all. First off, I have already calibrated the UG Odometer over a ~170 mile trip using my TomTom and my iPhone both of which are accurate to .01 miles. Then I did an additional 156 miles to calibrate the UG's fuel usage gauge which was then followed up by a 54 mile trip to verify the accuracy of the both gauges.

This morning I watched the fuel usage gauge that resets every time I start the car and I watched my car burn .21 Gallons in the first 1.90 miles(averaging 41 MPH). The car then proceeded to burn an additional .74 Gallons over the next 30.38 miles (averaging 64 MPH).

These numbers are significant because for my commute I got an average of 33.98 MPG but if you take out that warm-up period I would have gotten 41.05 MPG. Also that means that if my daily commute was 47.9 miles I would average 36.01 MPG.

In summary, the CVT has a warm-up period ranging from 1.7 to 2.1 miles depending on the temperature of the transmission. It will try to hold at or above 2K RPM for the entire warm-up period. So to minimize the impact on your FE try to get up to 45-50 MPH for for the initial warm-up period and then proceed to drive normally. Also combine your trips as much as possible because every time you let the car cool down for extended periods of time you are almost guaranteed to burn 1/5 of a gallon on your next trip.
What was your outside temp? From what I've seen on my 5sp if it is warm outside the warm-up is what you posted, but at 15f, it takes upwards of 16-17 miles
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:14 AM   #2529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post
What was your outside temp? From what I've seen on my 5sp if it is warm outside the warm-up is what you posted, but at 15f, it takes upwards of 16-17 miles
That may be true for the engine/tranny to reach full operating temp. But fuel economy is the worst during the first few miles of warm up.

This AM the temps in Rochester, NY were 27*F. Before heading to work, I drove 2 miles to my favorite gas station to fill up and check my tire pressure. I then zeroed my trip odometer, which reset the AVG MPG display, and drove to work (which is mostly highway, although I did run into some rush-hour traffic jams along the way). By the time I arrived at work 18 miles later, my AVG MPG display showed 33.6 MPG.

The key to that good MPG reading was the 2-mile warm up the car received before I zeroed out the trip odometer. I'm confident that if I zeroed the trip odometer in my driveway when the engine was stone cold, rather than at the gas station 2 miles away, my AVG MPG display would have shown significantly worse results.

So while it may take 10 to 20 miles for the engine/tranny to reach full operating temps on a cold day, the highest gas consumption comes during the first couple of miles of warm up, and then starts improving from there. This is why lots of short trips that allow the car to cool off between each trip will result in an awful MPG result.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:30 AM   #2530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IveBeenRued View Post
While I have only had my UltraGauge for a few days at this point I have some interesting numbers for y'all. First off, I have already calibrated the UG Odometer over a ~170 mile trip using my TomTom and my iPhone both of which are accurate to .01 miles. Then I did an additional 156 miles to calibrate the UG's fuel usage gauge which was then followed up by a 54 mile trip to verify the accuracy of the both gauges.

This morning I watched the fuel usage gauge that resets every time I start the car and I watched my car burn .21 Gallons in the first 1.90 miles(averaging 41 MPH). The car then proceeded to burn an additional .74 Gallons over the next 30.38 miles (averaging 64 MPH).

These numbers are significant because for my commute I got an average of 33.98 MPG but if you take out that warm-up period I would have gotten 41.05 MPG. Also that means that if my daily commute was 47.9 miles I would average 36.01 MPG.
Stevehnm has already unequivocally proved that these levels of HWY MPG's are impossible with a CVT equipped Impreza.

You must be doing something wrong.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:31 AM   #2531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IveBeenRued View Post
While I have only had my UltraGauge for a few days at this point I have some interesting numbers for y'all. First off, I have already calibrated the UG Odometer over a ~170 mile trip using my TomTom and my iPhone both of which are accurate to .01 miles. Then I did an additional 156 miles to calibrate the UG's fuel usage gauge which was then followed up by a 54 mile trip to verify the accuracy of the both gauges.
On my Scangauges I see variable tank fill up percentages, so sometimes the volume left is up to a half a gallon (depending on the vehicle). This makes the percentage error worse with partial tank fill ups. I've found that after I get in the ballpark on the predicted fill quantity, I only adjust by 0.1 gallon. That way I am generally within +/-0.3 gallons of the predicted quantity. It takes a few fill ups to get accurate mpg readings.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:38 AM   #2532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Stevehnm has already unequivocally proved that these levels of HWY MPG's are impossible with a CVT equipped Impreza.

You must be doing something wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
It's easy to get the EPA highway rating on the highway. Just slow down. However, if you look at the money you're saving compared to the extra time it takes you're making less than minimum wage unless you're driving very fast, at which point speeding tickets and insurance rates come into play...

I get 50 mpg in my Impreza when I drive 50 mph.
26 to 1
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:46 AM   #2533
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
26 to 1
You must have missed the part of IveBeenRued's post that included the following relevant information:
  • CVT
  • Ultragauge
  • averaging 64mph
  • 33.98mpg that would rise to 36.01 if the drive was at least 47.9 miles

See, that isn't hard to read and break out the important information, it was just cleverly hidden in the other words he/she wrote.

So how is your warranty complaint about Subaru providing misleading MPG figures for the CVT Impreza going for you?

Did SOA offer to settle and cut you a check yet?
Is the EPA launching an official fraud investigation?
Did Consumer Reports retract their endorsement for our fuel sipping AWD best buy?

inquiring minds want to know (at least I do)
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:01 AM   #2534
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post
What was your outside temp? From what I've seen on my 5sp if it is warm outside the warm-up is what you posted, but at 15f, it takes upwards of 16-17 miles
Exterior temperature was 27 degrees at the start of my commute and 31 by the end. I did not have a chance to check the transmission or engine temperatures. I will look at those this evening and tomorrow morning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
On my Scangauges I see variable tank fill up percentages, so sometimes the volume left is up to a half a gallon (depending on the vehicle). This makes the percentage error worse with partial tank fill ups. I've found that after I get in the ballpark on the predicted fill quantity, I only adjust by 0.1 gallon. That way I am generally within +/-0.3 gallons of the predicted quantity. It takes a few fill ups to get accurate mpg readings.
I understand that it will take several more fill-ups to get truly accurate readings but on my 54 mile accuracy trip I've been doing pretty good so far. I found that my UG odometer was <.01 miles off and that my MPG gauge was .022 and .013 MPGs off. Meanwhile the cars MPG gauge is overestimating by over 2 MPG.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:12 AM   #2535
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Stevehnm, out of curiosity, how long is your daily commute?
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:41 AM   #2536
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Originally Posted by IveBeenRued View Post

Also combine your trips as much as possible because every time you let the car cool down for extended periods of time you are almost guaranteed to burn 1/5 of a gallon on your next trip.

Well this def explains my 22-24 city Average. bah.. oh well.. I think I can live with that.

Next tank I do will be completely lead footed just to see how horrible things can be. I'll be expecting 250mi on that tank or less...
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Old 12-06-2012, 10:54 AM   #2537
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Originally Posted by Zauri View Post

Well this def explains my 22-24 city Average. bah.. oh well.. I think I can live with that.

Next tank I do will be completely lead footed just to see how horrible things can be. I'll be expecting 250mi on that tank or less...
The EPA test for the CITY MPG rating is a 30 minute dyno run, so the majority of that test is done with a fully warmed up engine,

Electric cars and hybrids do best in short drives like you have, some of them can use mainly electric if you keep your drives consistently short.

Last edited by Zeeper; 12-06-2012 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:05 AM   #2538
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
The EPA test for the CITY MPG rating is a 30 minute dyno run, so the majority of that test is done with a fully warmed up engine,

Electric cars and hybrids do best in short drives like you have, some of them can use electric only if you keep your drives consistently short.
Something I thought about before buying this car. But seriously.. my alternatives were at the time were an Insight, or a Prius

I'll either be buying on of those as a secondary car down the road or wishfully holding for for a Subaru hybrid within the next 5 years lol
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Old 12-06-2012, 11:35 AM   #2539
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
It's simple. Go to the EPA site and pick a vehicle that offers an AWD option and a 2wd option. Make sure you get the same engine and transmission. If flyboy and buddies are right, they will be listed the same. They aren't. Think about it.
no **** sherlock. what a ****ing tool

now you are using my argument that an AWD vehicle will NOT achieve the same MPG as a FWD vehicle. maybe you should make up your mind because the more you try to arque whatever your problem is the more toolish you become. the Impreza is an AWD (all 4 wheels are drive wheels) vehicle, it will not perform the same as your ****ty toyota corolla which let me remind you weighs in at 900 lbs less and is a FWD drive ( that is the front 2 wheels only) and it has less HP, obviously even if they are rated the same the corolla will achieve better mpg. i realize this is a very difficult concept to understand. most vehicles on the road do not achieve their rated MPG at speeds faster than 60mph, yes there are exceptions (your ****box for example) but the majority of vehicles do not. again very very difficult concepts to understand here.

Social skills must be difficult for you as you don't even understand when someone mocks you

Last edited by flyboy1100; 12-06-2012 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:03 PM   #2540
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The new methodology was designed to make the ratings more realistic. My old Corolla was originally rated at 40 highway, it was re-rated according to 2008 specs at 36. On a good day (warm and humid) it gets 40 mpg at 80 mph. On my commute of 100 highway miles the Corolla beats the Impreza by 10 mpg, and in typical driving by 6 to 8. They are rated the same "for comparison purposes" by the EPA.

It's easy to get the EPA highway rating on the highway. Just slow down. However, if you look at the money you're saving compared to the extra time it takes you're making less than minikmum wage unless you're driving very fast, at which point speeding tickets and insurance rates come into play...

I get 50 mpg in my Impreza when I drive 50 mph.

So you're upset that the EPA doesn't do the highway test at 80mph? The EPA rating is at the EPA speed. Engine displacement, tuning, gearing, and aerodynamics vary from car to car and the gas mileage at speeds greater than the EPA test will vary accordingly.
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Old 12-06-2012, 02:48 PM   #2541
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Originally Posted by Zauri View Post

Well this def explains my 22-24 city Average. bah.. oh well.. I think I can live with that.

Next tank I do will be completely lead footed just to see how horrible things can be. I'll be expecting 250mi on that tank or less...
That explains alot. I do short 10-15 minute trips to work on the freeway w/ 1-2 minutes for warmup. I've been pretty light on the gas pedal so I was perplexed why i keep getting 23 mpg avg. its also very hilly so that might add to it too.

mystery solved!
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:14 PM   #2542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zauri View Post

Well this def explains my 22-24 city Average. bah.. oh well.. I think I can live with that.

Next tank I do will be completely lead footed just to see how horrible things can be. I'll be expecting 250mi on that tank or less...

My wife does that "test" regularly in our 2012 CVT hatch Impreza, well past "broken in".

The overall MPG gauge holds a pretty steady 20mpg.

She is a lead foot, and her commute and a large percentage of her driving is under 3 miles per trip.
Occasionally she does just the short hops for awhile and it can get down to 18mpg.
18-20 mpg is identical to what my 2003 Honda Element AWD gets under the same circumstances.
On the other hand, the best my Element can get is 22-24mpg freeway, whereas I can get 36-38mpg summer highway driving, with the Impreza, including mountain roads, when I borrow it to do long drives to hikes.

I don't think anyone is debating the freeway mileage possibilities of the Impreza. But the short hop city mileage is mediocre, at best, even when compared to similar AWD cars, driven in a similar way. The Element is not light or aero. The Impreza requires a definite creative definition of "city" and very very careful driving to get the city rating with a CVT.(can't speak to the 5 speed.)

On the other hand, its a lot more fun to drive than my Element.
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Old 12-06-2012, 03:40 PM   #2543
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The shorter the hop, the more a block heater will help.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:04 PM   #2544
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The shorter the hop, the more a block heater will help.
Now all we need is transmission heaters.
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:10 PM   #2545
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Now all we need is transmission heaters.
Do both!

http://www.wolverineheater.com/Engin...ars-s/1814.htm
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Old 12-06-2012, 04:28 PM   #2546
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Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
My wife does that "test" regularly in our 2012 CVT hatch Impreza, well past "broken in".

The overall MPG gauge holds a pretty steady 20mpg.

She is a lead foot, and her commute and a large percentage of her driving is under 3 miles per trip.
Occasionally she does just the short hops for awhile and it can get down to 18mpg.
Sounds similar to what I'm seeing with my 5spd. My commute is 5 miles each way, lots of lights, and I'm lucky if I get past 22 MPG. If I drive lead-footed it can easily be sub-20. Currently around 4600 miles on the odometer.

On the freeway I get numbers in line with the estimates. The somewhat crappy city numbers don't bother me much since I enjoy driving the car and a tank still lasts me a long time if all I'm doing is commuting.

Edit: I had an '11 Impreza CVT loaner for a couple of weeks and it got 18-19 MPG on the same commute. Was much less fun to drive, too.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:06 PM   #2547
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Last tank of gas on the car was probably the worst I've had so far, right around 24 MPG. Literally only got 250 miles on the tank, with only one bar still on in the fuel gauge. But consider that (1) it's winter blend gas, (2) the entire tank was short hops to and from work (8 miles one way, last half going traffic signal to traffic signal at 30 MPH), (3) I've been driving the car a little more 'aggressively' lately, and (4) outside temps have been cold. But no issues, as I expected this based on the items noted above. Once you've driven the car for a while and experimented a bit with how you drive and where you go, it becomes extremely predictable what kind of MPG's you're going to get.

Honestly, the sticker is fairly accurate. I can reproduce those numbers if I try, and overall, I'm not far off the combined rating for all of my driving. And I certainly won't complain, since for an AWD car, the mileage numbers are great.

For those who like the details, '12 Premium, CVT, just under 11k miles, and no oil consumption noted.
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Old 12-06-2012, 08:56 PM   #2548
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If you folks have an interest I have made a first attempt at statistics from the fuelie.com website provided earlier. Given the format for blogs makes tables difficult, if someone can guide me on how to post graphs as pictures I would be willing to make them and post. Fueli.com had 220 2012 Imprezas where I was able to extract transmission type, state (in a very limited number of cases), average mileage, last mileage, best mileage, total miles driven, and % city driving. Should be an interesting analysis as long as most are willing to accept the data as representative if imperfect. Additionally if there is a particular question to be answered we can ask the data to attempt an answer.

I am also willing to share the Excel spreadsheet if there is an interest.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:27 PM   #2549
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If you folks have an interest I have made a first attempt at statistics from the fuelie.com website provided earlier. Given the format for blogs makes tables difficult, if someone can guide me on how to post graphs as pictures I would be willing to make them and post. .
Use (print screen)

Go to Microsoft Picture manager and Ctrl V(Paste) the picture

then just crop the graph. Save it.. Upload it Post it.
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Old 12-06-2012, 09:56 PM   #2550
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Plots saved as jpg. Icon above this box asking for http:// Makes me think I'm missing the obvious. I see I cannot post attachments which would have been the other way to get this done. Recommendation?
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