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Old 01-11-2013, 10:13 AM   #2851
jd_24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
The only way to determine if the Impreza with the CVT (see that? "CVT") compares equitably with the numbers Subaru gave to the EPA is to compare how it does in reality with how it does on the EPA numbers, compared to other vehicles with similar numbers. We have already established it is two standard deviations off from the average of the others.

Your statistics are crap. You can't take a few values from the internet where many posts are complaint posts, and assume it means most or all.
Subaru sold around 70,000 Imprezas last year. How big was your sample size?
Just because "Car Enthusiast-r-Us" posts xyz in their articles about gas milage doesn't mean they really tested it for gas milage. Remember they tested it for acceleration and power characteristics with that same one or two tanks of gas.

The CVT can and does hit the EPA numbers for many of us. It exceeds the EPA numbers for some as well.

So please stop the rant that all or most CVT Imprezas can't get the EPA numbers. If you and your car can't, fine post about your results and take action with the EPA or Subaru. Hearing about a pearson success or issues is fine, its when generalizations that all or everyone has the same problem.....
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:38 AM   #2852
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Originally Posted by ans2k View Post
^i agree. after driving through the snow storm recently, i stopped complaining or caring about mpg. i bought the car for safety and reliability, mpg comes after. i am willing to take a mpg hit for the most important reason for why i got this car.
+2. My trip into the Adirondack mountains between Christmas and New Years proved the greatness of driving a Subaru. I found myself attempting increasingly difficult terrain as the trip went on in an attempt to find the car's limits. I was doing things with ease that I know a front-wheel drive car with snow tires could never do.

Very cool.

Symmetrical AWD. And love. It's what makes a Subaru a Subaru.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:43 AM   #2853
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I would like to see a cross reference between low MPG claims and threads about broken seat springs.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:45 AM   #2854
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Stevehnm does have valid points & concerns that a lot of us had & talked about at length a year ago. While the CVT "can" achieve EPA numbers, I myself cannot. Cold temps, short drives, driving fast, etc is the reason why. I also for once ever, ashamed to admit it, agree with Zeeper's statement that most are upset that deviating from EPA's testing conditions AKA ideal driving (in warmer temps on flat terrain on highways at a speed not much more above 55) will take a bigger MPG hit on these cars than a FWD Civic is true. That's why I was so frustrated because all of my other cars with my similar bad driving habits still met & exceeded EPA MPG numbers. I don't know how much I buy that it's because it's an AWD as I come from a family with a long Subaru history & that never had such an impact on MPG in previous non-CVT, non-PZEV models. I do believe it has to do with the CVT & PZEV.

Fuel Economy was my #2 deciding factor on purchasing this car & I'm still not happy about but realize that there's not much ground for a claim against anyone here. I stopped keeping track on Fuelly because I'd get upset every time. I'm over it. Thrilled with my car otherwise & would never get rid of it at this point. Give Stevehnm time. At some point he'll either sell it or learn to live with it as most have since all other things considered it's a great car. Zeeper's points have been made at nauseam on multiple threads so how bout you add Steve to YOUR ignore list too. & Steve I've wanted to jump in in your defense but keep the MPG talk to the MPG threads & off the regular 2012 Impreza Thread. This is starting to feel like the 79 thread about oil burning. Look back to the beginning & you'll see others agree but have since moved on.

Last edited by SleepNMnky; 01-11-2013 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:13 PM   #2855
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Originally Posted by ans2k View Post
^i agree. after driving through the snow storm recently, i stopped complaining or caring about mpg. i bought the car for safety and reliability, mpg comes after. i am willing to take a mpg hit for the most important reason for why i got this car.
True dis. After you blast through a pile of snow that you are 1003.14159% positive a 1 wheel drive car would have been buried in, you care about a couple mpg a whole lot less. As long as you make it to the mountain to go snowboarding who cares?
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:00 PM   #2856
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Stevehnm does have valid points & concerns that a lot of us had & talked about at length a year ago. While the CVT "can" achieve EPA numbers, I myself cannot. Cold temps, short drives, driving fast, etc is the reason why. I also for once ever, ashamed to admit it, agree with Zeeper's statement that most are upset that deviating from EPA's testing conditions AKA ideal driving (in warmer temps on flat terrain on highways at a speed not much more above 55) will take a bigger MPG on these cars than a FWD Civic is true. That's why I was so frustrated because all of my other cars with my similar bad driving habits still met & exceeded EPA MPG numbers. I don't know how much I buy that it's because it's an AWD as I come from a family with a long Subaru history & that never had such an impact on MPG in previous non-CVT, non-PZEV models. I do believe it has to do with the CVT & PZEV. Fuel Economy was my #2 deciding factor on purchasing this car & I'm still not happy about but realize that there's not much ground for a claim against anyone here. I stopped keeping track on Fuelly because I'd get upset every time. I'm over it. Thrilled with my car otherwise & would never get rid of it at this point. Give Stevehnm time. At some point he'll either sell it or learn to live with it as most have since all other things considered it's a great car. Zeeper's points have been made at nauseam on multiple threads so how bout you add Steve to YOUR ignore list too. & Steve I've wanted to jump in in your defense but keep the MPG talk to the MPG threads & off the 2012 Thread. This is starting to feel like the 79 thread about oil burning. Look back to the beginning & you'll see others agree but have since moved on.
Agreed! I've owned only subarus, my 2012 impreza was subaru #14 for me. I have been able to get the EPA numbers, or better, in all of them (except the 12). My 04 sti actually gets better on mileage on the interstate at 75+ than my impreza. I bought my impreza for all the awd, and reliablity and resale. I just assumed mpg would be good as advertised. It sucks mpgs are bad and it's really irritating me, but oh well. I started putting in the E10 gas that is cheaper and just try to ignore it.

Oh and mine's not a pzev either, just the cvt. All of my other subies have been manuals, except my baja T, which had the 4eat and consistently got the epa numbers.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:21 PM   #2857
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I started putting in the E10 gas that is cheaper and just try to ignore it.
Can you say how much of a difference E0 vs. E10 gas makes?
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #2858
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Can you say how much of a difference E0 vs. E10 gas makes?
I can't really tell. In Iowa e10 is 0.13/gal cheaper than E0. When it got cold and my mileage tanked on E0, I said screw it and just started using the cheap stuff. As soon as it got cold i've been getting below 25mpg, my last two tanks were the first with e10 and getting about 23.5mpg.
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:37 PM   #2859
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OK, thanks. I've been wanting to experiment with E0 myself. What burns my britches is that the only way to get E0 where I live is to buy premium gas; you can't get regular unleaded that's also E0.

This not only makes the E0 more expensive, but it would cast doubt on my experiment. If my MPGs go up on E0, is it because of the E0, or because of the premium gas (or both)?
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Old 01-11-2013, 03:38 PM   #2860
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I have no complaints with the MPG. Along the I-95 corridor of North Carolina / South Carolina and to the coast is flat. I used Trip A to track mileage on the current tank of gas and Trip B to track mileage on the current oil. My Trip B is showing 28.5 AVG MPG after 2,164 miles. It's a little below the advertised 30 mpg combined but not by much. I think it can be fairly accurate IF you fill your tank to the same level each time when the pump clicks off instead of squeezing in extra to round off the dollar. That may be the cause of the disparity between computer and hand calculated figures.
On the interstate, I always get at or above the 36 EPA HWY estimate.
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:07 PM   #2861
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
OK, thanks. I've been wanting to experiment with E0 myself. What burns my britches is that the only way to get E0 where I live is to buy premium gas; you can't get regular unleaded that's also E0.

This not only makes the E0 more expensive, but it would cast doubt on my experiment. If my MPGs go up on E0, is it because of the E0, or because of the premium gas (or both)?
I feel your pain. The closest E0 gas station to me is about 60 miles away in the next state. I just signed that gov petition to keep E0 widely available. You can find the link @ pure-gas.org. Still need about 24,000 more signatures by Feb 8th. Everyone should get on over there and sign that petition ASAP!
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:31 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
OK, thanks. I've been wanting to experiment with E0 myself. What burns my britches is that the only way to get E0 where I live is to buy premium gas; you can't get regular unleaded that's also E0.

This not only makes the E0 more expensive, but it would cast doubt on my experiment. If my MPGs go up on E0, is it because of the E0, or because of the premium gas (or both)?
I don't think premium gas would provide better MPG's than regular gas, all things being equal, so I don't think it would cloud your results much.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:38 PM   #2863
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post

Can you say how much of a difference E0 vs. E10 gas makes?
10% in my case
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:42 PM   #2864
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post

I don't think premium gas would provide better MPG's than regular gas, all things being equal, so I don't think it would cloud your results much.
About 1mpg when I tried it, but the cost is 15% higher for only 3% gain so not worth it.

E0 oth is 2% more expensive for 10% gain so it easily pays for itself
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:00 AM   #2865
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Stevehnmdmsht
Please add me to your ignore list. I haven't seen a single instance yet where you have contributed anything of value to this discussion.
Zeeper this is the mpg thread. If you don't like my posts you can add *me* to your ignore list.

However, I will keep on correcting your erroneous comments, because you are not being accurate here. You are the one that is trying to twist the argument around. In case you forgot I will add (again) the Consumer Reports results that are independent of this forum but back up the claims of most of the posters here. Now it's true that one can get Subaru's claimed EPA numbers if they drive slowly enough, but comparing the Impreza to others getting equivalent mpg's, one can see that the Impreza, in independent tests, does *not* get mpg's equivalent to other brands when comparing their real numbers to the EPA's numbers, so one has to drive *much* more slowly in the Impreza than in other cars to get the EPA numbers. I have posted this before, so I cannot believe you keep forgetting it, and therefore distrust your motives. Here is the information:

"I took flyboy1100's choices to Consumer Reports and posted the relevant numbers here. In the case of multiple tests, I will take the one on the right, which is the most current. The first column is the Consumer Reports (independent) Highway figure. The second is the alleged EPA (by Subaru) highway figure. The third is the ratio of the CR to the EPA figures. You will notice they are all over 1, except the Impreza. In fact, when compared to the ratio of the others in the field (of your choice) The Impreza is *over 2 standard deviations* below the field.

Brand CR EPA CR/EPA
Mazda 3 34 29 1.17
Focus 39 37 1.05
Cruze 40 39 1.03
Corolla 39 35 1.11
Civic HF 49 39 1.26
Lancer 28 25 1.12
Mazda 2 40 35 1.14
Honda Fit 39 35 1.11
Impreza 35 36 0.97"
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:58 AM   #2866
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As I posted before, I do not dispute that folks are not achieving the numbers they expected, but many are. Numbers could be disputed for ever without any real outcome. Customer relations courses teach that a satisfied customer will tell 1 person of how satisfied they are while a dis-satisfied customer will tell 10 people. That could present the arguement that this is skewed toward the bad rather than the good. No need to beat that into the ground, but you should see my point. (See my first sentence.)

Steve, you noted figures regarding mpg. Of the cars you listed, there are only a couple that MIGHT have been the 4WD variant that CR tested and likely the tested vehicle was the model that gets the best economy of its line. Assuming that is true, the only vehicle on your list that is AWD is the Impreza, which got 1 mpg less by CR than the published figure by Subaru. If I lived in an area where AWD was less needed, or should I say wanted, I woud have probably considered something that does even better, but when things get bad it is a wonderful thing having AWD. My last 10 years with the rex has spoiled me to AWD.

Having read some things about what garners a PZEV rating, and having made some observations myself, I think it is safe to say that comparing numbers is like throwing dice. Winter fuel blends vary by region so my winter blend may be different than yours. Even summer blends vary for that matter. I can watch my mileage drop off on my bike when crossing the Northern Plains States big time. To achieve a PZEV rating, how the pellets are aranged in the cat is not hap-hazzard. The puter runs the engine management differently to get the cat up to optimium temp where it is most efficient. I'm not quite sure exactly what that entails, but I notice my engine is kept at a higher RPM longer on the cold days once I take off. (As soon as I pull out I am in a 55 mph zone. With the cruise set, my rpm is held higher for longer.) No doubt the fuel mixture is different as well. I also don't know what is going on with the VVT, (variable valve timing), but that may be managed differently until everything is up to operating temp. Another thing nobody knows for sure is weather the '13's have a different map for the puter over the 12's. What is it doing with rpm, (CVT), fuel mixture, and VVT at different temps?

I made observations about vehicle speed somewhere in a previous post. 65 is the posted speed on interstates here in Ohio, so my going 70 is actually speeding. Having said that, that 5 mph makes a difference in my fuel usage. I also realize that many states have a higher speed limit. I have traveled many places in this country on two wheels so I am well aware of the higher speed limits. So yeah, where 75 is the limit, there will likely be a degredation in fuel economy, and I also agree it would be foolish to drop so far below the posted speed for the sake of mileage.

I don't know the answer, but I realize there are many variables that make an apples to apples comparo difficult at best. Just something everyone should take into consideration. The only way I can really see to get a relative idea would be to take at least 10 cars with nearly empty tanks, fill them at the same station, drive them together to a destination, using a GPS for the exact mileage, refill them, and compare numbers. If I were doing that, I would find half with cars that meet the owners expectation and half that do not. It really would be interesting to find out.





John
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:40 AM   #2867
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...

I don't know the answer, but I realize there are many variables that make an apples to apples comparo difficult at best. Just something everyone should take into consideration.
Thanks for your polite and reasoned response. As far as being an AWD it should not get less compared to the EPA estimate (compared to other cars).
If you look at the EPA's list it specifies what is AWD and what is not. It will list both. The AWD version of a car shows lower mpg compared to the 2wd version of the same car. Therefore, the fact the Impreza is an AWD is already considered in the numbers and there is no reason to expect its real world mpg to be lower compared to the EPA number than other cars.

I agree it's a good car, and always have. Unfortunately it has an Achilles heel in that the number Subaru advertises is nowhere close to reality *compared to other cars*. The list I provided (and another list too, previously) showed the Impreza, in independent tests by Consumer Reports, gets very poor mpg in the real world compared to the number Subaru gave the EPA.

A road test result, or individual anecdotes of mpg on this forum, have nothing to do with independent comparisons of actual mpg.
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Old 01-12-2013, 10:53 AM   #2868
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Originally Posted by jr0bb5 View Post
I feel your pain. The closest E0 gas station to me is about 60 miles away in the next state. I just signed that gov petition to keep E0 widely available. You can find the link @ pure-gas.org. Still need about 24,000 more signatures by Feb 8th. Everyone should get on over there and sign that petition ASAP!
Signed! only 24,812 to go lol

btw dash is showing 40.8 mpg on current tank. not sure if e10 or not. just got the ecm recall done so be interesting to see difference next tank. btw 40 is about 2-3mpg better then what i been getting the past couple weeks. maybe due to 40-50 degree weather this week.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:09 PM   #2869
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^^^ The fuel pumps at gas stations should have a sticker or label showing the percentage of ethanol blended in the gasoline. At least all the ones around my area do. The local gas stations that have ethanol-free gasoline have a big sign proclaiming their fuel is ethanol-free. However, it may be limited to a certain grade and primarily aimed at the boat owners.
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Old 01-12-2013, 01:30 PM   #2870
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^ sadly, in BC (or at least the Greater Vancouver area), it's been legislated that all 87 octane gasoline should have 10% ethanol in it. Higher octane fuels may or may not (hence they have a sticker at the pump that says "May have up to 10% ethanol content"), and the highest octane fuels don't.

I'm just hoping that someone can definitively prove that not only is 10% ethanol content not helping in reducing carbon emissions, but is actually increasing overall carbon output.
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:00 PM   #2871
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Figured I would re-post seeing as it has been a long tie since I have been on the forum
I now have about 11,000 miles on my Imprezza. When I started out my little display would always say 40MPG or up to 42MPG. Now calculating by using the gas fill method I am constantly only getting 30MPG. the 30 is pretty damed consistent. This is NH with lots of rolling hills and mountains. Also this is combined mileage, winter gs formula, but I do a lot of back road driving at around 40-45mph.
So 30MPG now at 11K on the odo.
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:03 PM   #2872
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Figured I would re-post seeing as it has been a long tie since I have been on the forum
I now have about 11,000 miles on my Imprezza. When I started out my little display would always say 40MPG or up to 42MPG. Now calculating by using the gas fill method I am constantly only getting 30MPG. the 30 is pretty damed consistent. This is NH with lots of rolling hills and mountains. Also this is combined mileage, winter gs formula, but I do a lot of back road driving at around 40-45mph.
So 30MPG now at 11K on the odo.
You might want to specify CVT or 5 Speed, but either way your combined MPG's are right in line with the EPA projection.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:04 PM   #2873
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Your statistics are crap.
No, apparently your brain is crap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jd_24 View Post
You can't take a few values from the internet where many posts are complaint posts, and assume it means most or all.
I am not talking about "a few values from the internet where many posts are complaint posts" as you (and other shallow thinkers) imply. I am talking about Consumer Reports' reality based mpg figures.

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Originally Posted by jd_24 View Post
The CVT can and does hit the EPA numbers for many of us. It exceeds the EPA numbers for some as well.
"Hits" for many and even "exceeds" for some??? Do you understand you ridiculous that sounds? Of course someone can "hit" or even "exceed" mpg claims by Subaru, if they drive slowly enough.

Sheesh. How slow are some of these people?
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:05 PM   #2874
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You might want to specify CVT or 5 Speed, but either way your combined MPG's are right in line with the EPA projection.
For the umpteenth time, of course that is true, if someone drives slowly enough.

Infriggingcredible.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:20 PM   #2875
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For the umpteenth time, of course that is true, if someone drives slowly enough.

Infriggingcredible.
I just don't know what you're bitching about, CR was able to get almost the EPA estimate. You're bitching about other cars and how they tested. Subaru says it gets 36mpg and CR confirmed that, along with people's own real-world usage on here. So what do you have to complain about?
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