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Old 03-10-2013, 02:37 PM   #3776
hemophilic
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My bet is that Subaru had a really tough task with the CVT. Enthusiasts generally detest CVTs. Enthusiasts generally are the automotive press and will cry foul of anything that they don't love. Enthusiasts generally don't represent the buying public. So, Subaru has to tune it in such a way that the enthusiast press won't completely destroy it like how "boring" or "motorboaty" or "buzzy" the power train behaves and yet add the economy everyone else pays actual money for.

Subaru has tuned the CVT to somewhat emulate a traditional transmission. You can feel it during launch when the engine revs up gradually until it drops and stays at ~1500 rpm at cruise. Other CVTs immediately buzz at 3 or 4krpm until cruise.
If they'd tuned it for economy, you'd never get past 2krpm during acceleration and would lug at 1400rpm in all speeds.
If they tuned it for "enthusiast", it would exactly mimic a geared transmission.
Mmmmm, compromise. The flavor that no one wants.

I think Subaru would have been better served installing an eco/normal/sport switch instead of paddles. Add a mode to allow the CVT to behave for its intended purpose and another to satisfy the enthusiast crowd. Protohuman knuckle-dragger enthusiasts with their lead feet and poor planning abilities ruin everything.

Beyond that, I wish I had more control over shift points in manual/paddle mode. It sucks that I can't get into 6th "gear" until 47mph even though it doesn't drop out of 6th until around 40mph. The eco gauge doesn't go into negative half as much when in 6th gear going up a hill. Shifting into a higher gear at lower rpm/speed is the cornerstone of eco driving.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:49 PM   #3777
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Here is a great example of how wind will affect mpg. My dash display is accurate.. I drove round trip today with a 25mph wind, it isn't quite the same as driving in zero wind at the overall wind speed, but it is close enough for this example.

South bound with 25mph tailwind, car was indicating 31.5mpg at 85mph, net wind speed 60.

North bound with 25mph headwind, car indicated 24.5 mpg at 71 mph, net wind speed 96 mph.

Like I said not quite accurate because in zero wind at 60mph my car is indicating around 36mpg, and at 71-72 I'm down to around 31.5mpg, but by 85mph in zero wind I'm usually around 25mpg. Never tried faster than that, but I'm quite sure at 96mph in zero wind I would be well under 20mpg.
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:53 PM   #3778
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Originally Posted by flyboy1100 View Post
Here is a great example of how wind will affect mpg. My dash display is accurate.. I drove round trip today with a 25mph wind, it isn't quite the same as driving in zero wind at the overall wind speed, but it is close enough for this example.

South bound with 25mph tailwind, car was indicating 31.5mpg at 85mph, net wind speed 60.

North bound with 25mph headwind, car indicated 24.5 mpg at 71 mph, net wind speed 96 mph.

Like I said not quite accurate because in zero wind at 60mph my car is indicating around 36mpg, and at 71-72 I'm down to around 31.5mpg, but by 85mph in zero wind I'm usually around 25mpg. Never tried faster than that, but I'm quite sure at 96mph in zero wind I would be well under 20mpg.
That's because wind resistance isn't the only thing that affects your MPG's.... the faster you go, the harder the engine has to work harder to maintain that speed...RPM's are higher, etc etc
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:56 PM   #3779
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Originally Posted by jsteg View Post

That's because wind resistance isn't the only thing that affects your MPG's.... the faster you go, the harder the engine has to work harder to maintain that speed...RPM's are higher, etc etc
I know, and I hinted at that, but the fact remains with a tailwind I saw a 30% boost to economy today or a 30% loss due to wind alone

Overall I think I averaged about 28mpg at 78mph, so slightly less than 78 in no wind but I don't normally drive at 85 either
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Old 03-10-2013, 07:59 PM   #3780
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Originally Posted by theoutbackdream View Post
Spdrcr5 seemed like a troll due to his username, speedracer, implying he likes to punch it.
WOW, you really are a tool. Am I a troll? No not in the least. spdrcr5 has NOTHING to do with anything other than I am fan of the cartoon Speed Racer! The 5 is for the car he drives, the Mach V.

Now, let's get back to some of the nonsense some of you are spouting on this thread.

Some are pretty wacked that you think that if a car has full time awd that the quoted numbers whether from the mfg or the EPA would be different if the vehicle is awd or 2wd... The number are stated for the actual vehicle not some fantasy vehicle. I am not comparing this car to a 2wd version of said car, which we all know does not exist. If a 2wd existed it would still have nothing to do with the complaint of cr@p mileage in MY version of the 2013 Impreza.

My wife does not have a lead foot, she has used her cruise control and she not used it... makes no difference. I have driven the car and it has gotten just as fuel mileage. We have done multiple tests with this car and it still has never seen 30mpg on 100% highway driving. The best we have seen is 29.x. The most recent tank was 19.22mpg mixed about 50/50 driving.

She now has 3,000 miles on the tank. We talked with Sales Manager yesterday and told him we want out of the car. He is arranging for us to meet with the Area Service Rep from Subaru. I am calling Subaru Corp again tomorrow to file another complaint.

For some reason there are those on this thread that for some reason think you can't properly compare a 2wd to an awd vehicle for mpg. Why would you say that? If 2 different cars have stated numbers of 27/36/30 then what difference does it make what the drive train is? Someone mentioned that maybe we should have purchased a Prius... why would I want that? I wanted an awd vehicle that supposedly got decent mileage. Why would I think that Subaru lies just like Kia and Hyundai? Was mileage the main reason for getting the Impreza? No, but it was a big factor. Like I stated in one of my first posts in this thread we wanted a car with good mileage because of my wife's commute. She was willing to give up her larger vehicle for the mileage... but since the mileage is ***** she clearly isn't happy with the Impreza.

Still trying to catch up to some of the posts but needed to post this first... I will post again once I am done.

Again, NOT a troll. lol Also, NEVER said I wanted the stated mileage... I wanted something CLOSE, I am nowhere near close.
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:11 PM   #3781
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Decided to try something yesterday, as I'm seeing all the complaints here about low MPG's with the CVT. My 2012 hatch is well broken in, 13k+ miles on it, no oil consumption issues, been fairly happy with the MPG's i've been getting, even with the winter blend 'hit' the numbers have taken.

My normal daily drive is probably the worst conditions to get good mileage, a combination of rural roads, interstate, and stop-and-go city driving... and is only 8 miles one way. I take a hit for that, and that's OK, because I understand that's just what's gonna happen with that commute.

Filled up the tank on Monday (3/4) night on the way home, and drove my normal commute with a little chasing around town mileage thrown in to boot. On Saturday morning, after doing 93 miles in 4 days, the MPG's showed 24.6 on the display (normally I can figure a 1-2 MPG reduction in that number when I do the calcs by hand).

So before I headed out Saturday, I reset the B trip odometer, and then drove 24 miles of mixed country/village/rural driving, with one stop along the way. No hard accelerations, no stomping on the gas from the stop signs, and when I reached my destination, the display was showing 30.9 MPG.

The car then sat for 4 hours (cold start), and I then drove a 104 mile loop, 90% interstate at 72-77 MPH, with one long stop (another cold start) about halfway through the trip. Final number for the entire day was 30.3 MPG, with the highest observed MPG on the display of 32.1 MPG.

This is with 87 octane E-10, winter blend, and little to no wind on the road. Only used the defroster until the car warmed up after each restart, and then switched to the normal heat settings.

So what did I learn from this little experiment?
  • The car is still performing consistently at higher interstate speeds as it has right along. Estimated 28-29 MPG actual fuel economy (assuming the usual 1-2MPG correction to the display) is right in line with what I observed with the car last summer at the same higher speeds.
  • The commute from hell is just that on the MPG's. The car shows lower fuel economy as the warmup and the defroster use eat into the numbers significantly.
  • Rural mileage (~55 MPH) is still the most efficient, however there is a price to pay for the winter blend and the warmup time for the car.
So net, I'd expect if I repeated this experiment in the summer, I'd see commuting MPG's about 2-3 MPG higher, highway numbers about the same, and rural MPG's right where the sticker says (if not higher), all based on prior experience.

Actually thinking about throwing in a couple tanks of E0 premium (the only way to get E0 locally at present) when the weather gets nicer and I know I'll be doing some rural/highway mileage. Curious to see if the higher up front cost for the gas results in good enough MPG's that there's enough of a savings to make the E0 worthwhile.

If I had to guess, those with MPG concerns are dealing with cold temperatures, winter blend gas, and a lot of short trips in the car. It just appears that for short winter trips, you pay the price with lower MPG's. Take this for what it's worth...
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:47 PM   #3782
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Originally Posted by cny12owner View Post
If I had to guess, those with MPG concerns are dealing with cold temperatures, winter blend gas, and a lot of short trips in the car. It just appears that for short winter trips, you pay the price with lower MPG's. Take this for what it's worth...
You are 100% correct, we are dealing with the winter blend down here on Long Island. But that only accounts for 10% of the mpg hit that we are seeing. What accounts for the other 20-30%?

We are planning a road trip the end of the month for our anniversary and will see what this can do on 100% highway. Will report back the number we see.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:05 PM   #3783
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Originally Posted by spdrcr5 View Post
We are planning a road trip the end of the month for our anniversary and will see what this can do on 100% highway. Will report back the number we see.
Can you find a source of E0 gas?
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:12 PM   #3784
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Can you find a source of E0 gas?
If I wait until after April or drive 12 hours south. It isn't available anywhere that I know of anywhere in the Northeast. Honestly even when the summer blend hits the stations it really isn't going to make either of us happy if the mileage improves to something close to the 30avg, we don't only drive in the summer, we drive half the year with the winter blend fuel so it would still be a massive $$$ hit.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:25 PM   #3785
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Originally Posted by spdrcr5 View Post
WOW, you really are a tool. Am I a troll? No not in the least. spdrcr5 has NOTHING to do with anything other than I am fan of the cartoon Speed Racer! The 5 is for the car he drives, the Mach V.

Now, let's get back to some of the nonsense some of you are spouting on this thread.

Some are pretty wacked that you think that if a car has full time awd that the quoted numbers whether from the mfg or the EPA would be different if the vehicle is awd or 2wd... The number are stated for the actual vehicle not some fantasy vehicle. I am not comparing this car to a 2wd version of said car, which we all know does not exist. If a 2wd existed it would still have nothing to do with the complaint of cr@p mileage in MY version of the 2013 Impreza.

My wife does not have a lead foot, she has used her cruise control and she not used it... makes no difference. I have driven the car and it has gotten just as fuel mileage. We have done multiple tests with this car and it still has never seen 30mpg on 100% highway driving. The best we have seen is 29.x. The most recent tank was 19.22mpg mixed about 50/50 driving.

She now has 3,000 miles on the tank. We talked with Sales Manager yesterday and told him we want out of the car. He is arranging for us to meet with the Area Service Rep from Subaru. I am calling Subaru Corp again tomorrow to file another complaint.

For some reason there are those on this thread that for some reason think you can't properly compare a 2wd to an awd vehicle for mpg. Why would you say that? If 2 different cars have stated numbers of 27/36/30 then what difference does it make what the drive train is? Someone mentioned that maybe we should have purchased a Prius... why would I want that? I wanted an awd vehicle that supposedly got decent mileage. Why would I think that Subaru lies just like Kia and Hyundai? Was mileage the main reason for getting the Impreza? No, but it was a big factor. Like I stated in one of my first posts in this thread we wanted a car with good mileage because of my wife's commute. She was willing to give up her larger vehicle for the mileage... but since the mileage is ***** she clearly isn't happy with the Impreza.

Still trying to catch up to some of the posts but needed to post this first... I will post again once I am done.

Again, NOT a troll. lol Also, NEVER said I wanted the stated mileage... I wanted something CLOSE, I am nowhere near close.

Dude, i've been pushing my 2012 2.0i like no tomorrow for 2 tanks now and average 20~mpg. When I babied it for 1 tank, I averaged 27mpg. When I drove how I normally do, I average 25.7mpg.

Either you've never seen your wife drive before and just assuming how she drives, OR you've actually got problems but seems like you don't as you've gone to the dealership to try and resolve them.

For your tests, how are you 100% sure its actually getting 19.22mpg for the last run? I know you mentioned you use a phone app, but how reliable is that? Can you prove that it is dead accurate?

IMO, best way to actually calculate your MPG is filling up the whole tank, reset your trip meter, and run until half tank.... Then make your calculation.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:29 PM   #3786
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E0 is available in central NY from Fastrac stations (premium only), and at the SavOn station at Route 5 & Route 46 in Oneida (all grades). I'm sure there are others.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:44 PM   #3787
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Originally Posted by spdrcr5 View Post
If I wait until after April or drive 12 hours south. It isn't available anywhere that I know of anywhere in the Northeast.
Wow, just looked on pure-gas.org and all the E0 gas is upstate. I didn't recognize any city name that was on Long Island.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:19 PM   #3788
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Originally Posted by spdrcr5 View Post
If I wait until after April or drive 12 hours south. It isn't available anywhere that I know of anywhere in the Northeast. Honestly even when the summer blend hits the stations it really isn't going to make either of us happy if the mileage improves to something close to the 30avg, we don't only drive in the summer, we drive half the year with the winter blend fuel so it would still be a massive $$$ hit.
Use this web site to see if you can find a local source of E0. If you can, try filling with it a few times before your road trip to purge all of your E10 from the tank. Then take your trip with you tank topped off with E0.

http://pure-gas.org/

The E0 might be more expensive than your E10 source. Just pay it anyway, in the name of science.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:06 PM   #3789
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post
The E0 might be more expensive than your E10 source. Just pay it anyway, in the name of science.
It should be cheaper than E10, because it takes more than a gallon of gasoline to make a gallon of ethanol.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:07 PM   #3790
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
It should be cheaper than E10, because it takes more than a gallon of gasoline to make a gallon of ethanol.
And diesel should be cheaper than unleaded since it's a bi-product from making unleaded.....but it's not.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:10 PM   #3791
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No E0 stations around me.
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Old 03-10-2013, 11:57 PM   #3792
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Originally Posted by theoutbackdream View Post
Dude, i've been pushing my 2012 2.0i like no tomorrow for 2 tanks now and average 20~mpg. When I babied it for 1 tank, I averaged 27mpg. When I drove how I normally do, I average 25.7mpg.

Either you've never seen your wife drive before and just assuming how she drives, OR you've actually got problems but seems like you don't as you've gone to the dealership to try and resolve them.

For your tests, how are you 100% sure its actually getting 19.22mpg for the last run? I know you mentioned you use a phone app, but how reliable is that? Can you prove that it is dead accurate?

IMO, best way to actually calculate your MPG is filling up the whole tank, reset your trip meter, and run until half tank.... Then make your calculation.
I know exactly how she drives and I have also driven the car and the mileage sux. The App is accurate, I have also done the calculations by hand.

Here are the raw numbers... do your own calculations:

1/5 purchased car 11 miles
1/10 240 miles 19.89mpg
1/16 490 miles 20.31 mpg
11/22 749 partial fill
1/26 915 20.11mpg
1/31 1168 22.15mpg
2/5 1444 21.89
2/10 1681 22.44
2/16 1939 19.86
2/20 2200 23.59
2/24 2455 21.25
3/4 2744 22.22
3/10 3007 19.94 By hand it works out to 19.939348

I guess you have also missed where I have stated we have driven for 10+ miles on the highway using the cruise and not using the cruise and we have not even hit 30mpg. Speed was set to 65 and confirmed it with 2 GPS's.

I am not new to cars let alone car forums, been working on cars and building cars for 25+ years.

As for your way to get an accurate mpg reading, the amount of gas used has nothing to do with it. You can drive 1 mile and get an accurate reading, so long as you end with the same amount as you started with. Take an accurate accounting of the beginning and ending mileage, etc. Do the proper math.

As for your statement about pushing the car for 2 tanks and getting only 20~, if I were to do the same thing I would guess mine would be in the low to mid teens. Forget about what I have stated as the mpg of this car. How many miles are you getting out of a tank on average? Our best so far is 289 miles when she then put in 13.00 gallons. Sure, you can argue why didn't she "stretch it" another 1/2-1 gallon... She doesn't like to run her car down too far below E and the light. Me, I have always run my cars out of gas so I know how far I can push them... she hates when I do that. lol
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:25 AM   #3793
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Originally Posted by spdrcr5 View Post
I know exactly how she drives and I have also driven the car and the mileage sux. The App is accurate, I have also done the calculations by hand.

I guess you have also missed where I have stated we have driven for 10+ miles on the highway using the cruise and not using the cruise and we have not even hit 30mpg. Speed was set to 65 and confirmed it with 2 GPS's.

I am not new to cars let alone car forums, been working on cars and building cars for 25+ years.

As for your way to get an accurate mpg reading, the amount of gas used has nothing to do with it. You can drive 1 mile and get an accurate reading, so long as you end with the same amount as you started with. Take an accurate accounting of the beginning and ending mileage, etc. Do the proper math.

As for your statement about pushing the car for 2 tanks and getting only 20~, if I were to do the same thing I would guess mine would be in the low to mid teens. Forget about what I have stated as the mpg of this car. How many miles are you getting out of a tank on average? Our best so far is 289 miles when she then put in 13.00 gallons. Sure, you can argue why didn't she "stretch it" another 1/2-1 gallon... She doesn't like to run her car down too far below E and the light. Me, I have always run my cars out of gas so I know how far I can push them... she hates when I do that. lol
Cool story bro, just because you say you've been on forums and building cars for 25+ years doesn't mean anything. for one, its the internet. Hell I could say I've been working on cars for 30 years straight, when i've actually just been sitting behind a computer.

"You can drive 1 mile and get an accurate reading"? No you can't. MPG means Miles PER gallon. Surely you WILL get a reading of Miles per gallon, but by no means is it going to be accurate.

The amount of gas used DOES matter. how the hell do you calculate your MPG? You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Please look here: http://mistupid.com/automotive/mpg.htm its Miles driven/gallons used=MPG. Lets say I drive 250 miles, and used 10 gallons of gas. That means I have a MPG of 25.

Whats a low to mid teens?

On average, I get 165-175miles at half tank. This means 23.57~25mpg.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:18 AM   #3794
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Originally Posted by sgoldste01 View Post

Use this web site to see if you can find a local source of E0. If you can, try filling with it a few times before your road trip to purge all of your E10 from the tank. Then take your trip with you tank topped off with E0.

http://pure-gas.org/

The E0 might be more expensive than your E10 source. Just pay it anyway, in the name of science.
Does it matter that it's 91 octane?
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:21 AM   #3795
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I was just looking at the "Detailed Comparison" on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
Look at those average speed numbers! The highway test never goes above 60mph!
Accelerating at 3.3mph/sec? It would take 10 seconds to get to 33mph.
I dare anyone experiencing MPG problems to drive like that and still get crap numbers.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:24 AM   #3796
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I was just looking at the "Detailed Comparison" on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
Look at those average speed numbers! The highway test never goes above 60mph!
Accelerating at 3.3mph/sec? It would take 10 seconds to get to 33mph.
I dare anyone experiencing MPG problems to drive like that and still get crap numbers.
Wow, interesting find!
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:25 AM   #3797
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Does it matter that it's 91 octane?
no, from the 91 by itself you will probably gain a little mpg, and gain more from the e0.

Where I live I can get e0 87octane, if I couldn't I might pay more for the 91, but as it is I didn't gain enough from 91 over 87 e0 to warrant the extra cost.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:33 AM   #3798
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Originally Posted by hemophilic View Post
I was just looking at the "Detailed Comparison" on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
Look at those average speed numbers! The highway test never goes above 60mph!
Accelerating at 3.3mph/sec? It would take 10 seconds to get to 33mph.
I dare anyone experiencing MPG problems to drive like that and still get crap numbers.
Interesting... I personally think they need to redo the parameters for the EPA tests. You drive like that and you'll either get rear-ended, or attacked from someone with road rage!
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:36 AM   #3799
theoutbackdream
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Interesting... I personally think they need to redo the parameters for the EPA tests. You drive like that and you'll either get rear-ended, or attacked from someone with road rage!
+1...

Makes me wonder who even made this a test...
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:42 AM   #3800
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I was just looking at the "Detailed Comparison" on http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
Look at those average speed numbers! The highway test never goes above 60mph!
Accelerating at 3.3mph/sec? It would take 10 seconds to get to 33mph.
I dare anyone experiencing MPG problems to drive like that and still get crap numbers.
Exactly, no one drives like that, it is more the driver than it is the car. It just isn't real forgiving, and the tests aren't realistic for today.

But we have tried this argument before, the naysayers will continue to blame the car and claim Subaru gamed the test, when the reality most if the problem is the driver, you just cant drive it like you can a civic or a corolla etc. Those cars are much more forgiving, and as the testing proves, get better mpg when not driven in the same manner as the test. But the testing is no longer applicable to today's world

Last edited by flyboy1100; 03-11-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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